WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[phil-b259]

On 15/04/2024 at 21:58, rodent279 said:

But if the doors are under the overall control of CDL, there would be no more risk of that than with a door with conventional manual handles under the control of CDL. All the push buttons would do is allow the door to be pushed or pulled open once CDL has released the main door lock.

CDL does NOT ‘control’ the doors!

 

All it does is prevent them from being unlocked - once they are unlocked then it’s down to the forces acting on them which governs how fast and with what force they open outwards.

 

Plug or sliding doors will either retract into the train body or say very close to it and as such there is very little chance of them hitting a passenger standing on the platform as they open.

 

Hinged doors swing out on a wide arc - plus have door furniture (latches /catches) which stick out and could cause injury.

 

A person controlling when a swing door is opened and then the actual the rate of a swing can ensure that it is done in a safe manor - including stopping the door or deferring the opening until a passenger has moved out of the way.

 

A door which uses gravity to swing out when released cannot do this!

 

Finally you should take note that in places like France for decades they have had doors which require the user to manually open them - but which can be closed by power when commanded to by the train guard. This is by far a better way of doing things….

[ruggedpeak]

16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Finally you should take note that in places like France for decades they have had doors which require the user to manually open them - but which can be closed by power when commanded to by the train guard. This is by far a better way of doing things….

Same here in Switzerland - on the mainline, the single decker Eurocity coaching stock (see below) running major routes right across the country operate this way.

 

Doors are heavy to open, it has to be said, and it often confuses people not familiar with this stock as they stand by the doors waiting for them to open automatically at the station - this is common at Geneva and Geneva airport as this route has a lot of non-Swiss passengers. Whilst the doors open manually, an air system (AFAIK) closes all the doors, this operated by the guard.

 

It reinforces the point about people not being familiar with manual doors these days as many trains have button or automatic door operation.

 

https://www.sbb.ch/en/travel-information/services-on-train/our-trains/eurocity.html

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18 by ruggedpeak
clarification

[ruggedpeak]

One upside of the this latest WCRC fiasco is that CDL is now widely known about, seems like any reference to railway coaching stock now includes a CDL comment, whether it is Bachmann announcing imminent WCRC coaches coming into stock, Facebook posts or other social and normal media. ESR were highlighting their passenger stock training work for a TOC on Facebook and included confirmation that their Mk2 and Mk3 coaching stock is CDL fitted in the post!

 

A large number of people including a growing portion of the general public are now aware of and expecting CDL on their coaches....so any hope of WCRC avoiding CDL and getting more exemptions are well and truly dead as their own publicity and PR stunts have made sure everyone is aware that coaches on the mainline need CDL and know it is a safety issue.

 

It is difficult not to admire the genius of their entire strategy....🤣 

[ruggedpeak]

As an aside, one thing a lot of Swiss trains, trams and buses have is a pre-arrival facility on fully powered doors. If you push the door button whilst the unit is in motion that door will open as soon as the driver releases the doors at the stop/station. It also lights the button or a separate light by the door to indicate this in operation.

 

I don't know if this helps dwell times but suspect it does have some impact. It is something I always use as it means I don't have to think about waiting to push the button until the door release has been actuated (as against when the train stops!). I get irritated by stock not fitted with! I don't recall it in the UK but I have only used a limited range of stock so may be in use. Anyway, it is a good thing as you can approach the door push the button and know the door will open immediately.

[Jim Martin]

21 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

As an aside, one thing a lot of Swiss trains, trams and buses have is a pre-arrival facility on fully powered doors. If you push the door button whilst the unit is in motion that door will open as soon as the driver releases the doors at the stop/station. It also lights the button or a separate light by the door to indicate this in operation.

 

I don't know if this helps dwell times but suspect it does have some impact. It is something I always use as it means I don't have to think about waiting to push the button until the door release has been actuated (as against when the train stops!). I get irritated by stock not fitted with! I don't recall it in the UK but I have only used a limited range of stock so may be in use. Anyway, it is a good thing as you can approach the door push the button and know the door will open immediately.

The new Merseyrail Class 777s have this feature. Very useful it is, too: I travel home from Moorfields; and when the weather is nice I'll catch the first train out of town, wherever it's going, so that I can wait in the open air. Stand by the door, press the button as soon as the train pulls out of Moorfields and there's a prompt right there when you get to Sandhills. Not once have I found myself getting off at Kirkdale (or worse) because I forgot that I was meant to be changing trains.

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/04/2024 at 19:03, rodent279 said:

Would they need a new safety case?

If you've got CDL and a power supply, why not fit push button door locks, such that pushing the button releases the door lock, allowing it to swing open under is own weight, in a controlled manner?

Sorry I missed this question earlier.  If a door lock without grandfather rights is used then  it would need to be fully assessed and details provided to the Railway Inspectorate.  Exactly the same as with any 'novel application; or new rail vehicle design.  But fitting interior door handles to Mk 1 coaching stock would no doubt use the past standard design which would have grandfather rights so not need approval.

 

Presumably the CDL system used -  supplementary to and separate from the existing budget lock and its mechanism -  on a Mk1 vehicle would no doubt be required to be assessed by HMRI.  This would be in order for it to be checked out as a system which does what is claimed of it - i.e. that it is a separate, centrally controlled system to lock the doors in their closed position (irrespective of what is done with the existing door handles) and that it will only lock a door which is fully closed.    That is exactly what the Hastings Diesels system does

 

If the system is required to prevent operation of the door handles than that would be far more complicated that simply locking a door in the closed position.   This is not a requirement (as far as I can ascertain) thus, for example, the Hastings Diesels CDL system incorporates a second, purely CDL,  lock mounted adjacent to the existing standard door lock and its interior handle.  An indicator light shows when the CDL is unlocked at that door

 

https://www.hastingsdiesels.co.uk/news/articles/2005a02/

 

So to answer your final question as the door now has two locks it can still be opened, once the CDL is unlocked, in the normal manner by means of the original door handle - either interior or exterior.  Overall a relatively straightforward process with no need to modify the way in which the door  is opened or closed.  Adding push button door locks would simply increase the cost unnecessarily.

[The Stationmaster]

42 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

As an aside, one thing a lot of Swiss trains, trams and buses have is a pre-arrival facility on fully powered doors. If you push the door button whilst the unit is in motion that door will open as soon as the driver releases the doors at the stop/station. It also lights the button or a separate light by the door to indicate this in operation.

 

I don't know if this helps dwell times but suspect it does have some impact. It is something I always use as it means I don't have to think about waiting to push the button until the door release has been actuated (as against when the train stops!). I get irritated by stock not fitted with! I don't recall it in the UK but I have only used a limited range of stock so may be in use. Anyway, it is a good thing as you can approach the door push the button and know the door will open immediately.

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

[Railpassion]

In Switzerland, on the same stock, the doors often begin to close as the train moves off, finally locking as the train hits around 15kmh

 

 

It seems those travelling on the Jacobite will be enjoying a heat free experience. Will WCRC provide blankets and complementary hot drinks?

Edited April 18 by Railpassion

[petethemole]

18 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

At Eastleigh, trains onto and off the Fareham line and down stopping trains for Southampton use either side of the island platform as required, often changing at a few minutes notice.  Passengers on the train don't know which side will be platformed until the train pulls in.  No doubt this happens elsewhere.    Charter trains use this platform.

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, Railpassion said:

It seems those travelling on the Jacobite will be enjoying a heat free experience. Will WCRC provide blankets and complementary hot drinks?

 

It's quite far north in Scotland, no point in going there if you're not prepared to be cold! Surely a nip of whisky to keep the cold out is what's appropriate!

[ruggedpeak]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

You can press any of the buttons on either side of the carriage and the correct door will open on arrival regardless of which side it arrives on.

[Morello Cherry]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

 

There are similar systems elsewhere and I've used them (can't remember off the top of my head where - I think maybe in Austria or Germany) - although you hit the button before stopping, even if you stop at say a signal before the platform the doors don't open. I think they still have to be released by someone (the driver?) so there is no chance that they will be opened on the wrong side if a train were platformed into a different platform.

 

I am pretty sure I do remember at least once hitting the button on the 'wrong side' and then remembering the platform was on the other side and the doors only opened on the platform side.

 

It is a very useful system if you are travelling with a pram or something similar because you can hit the button and then get everything ready to get off and get off going forwards rather than backwards which is a pain in the arse to do on a crowded platform with a pram.

 

 

[chb2488]

7 hours ago, Railpassion said:

In Switzerland, on the same stock, the doors often begin to close as the train moves off, finally locking as the train hits around 15kmh

 

This would be entirely against regulations (by which I don‘t mean to imply that you can‘t have witnessed this sometime in the past or on the occasional shunting movement). There‘s a fairly recent film about a night train to Barcelona (whose name escapes me), in which one character makes use of the above scenario. Most mainline passenger trains now have a traction blockage as long as doors are left open.

 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

This would apply to UIC 13 Pole mode, which mustn‘t be used anymore – unless doors cannot be opened due to a technical failure. The normal mode is UIC 18 Pole, in which the driver liberates the doors on the relevant side.

[Michael Hodgson]

[Northmoor]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Great idea if. like Switzerland, you've got the luxury of plenty of infrastructure to ensure a train is always platformed with its doors 'on the usual side' - that simply wouldn't work at many larger stations in Britain. Aand of course - as can often be seen running into Reading - even when a train is arriving at its booked platform that will be on the opposite side to the ones at which many passengers joined and they are already crowding towards the door on the 'wrong side'.

London Underground get round this by (as well as passengers not opening the doors) using CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable).  A transpondery-thing under the far end of the platform releases the doors on that side only, with no input from the driver (sorry, operator).

[pete_mcfarlane]

11 hours ago, Railpassion said:

It seems those travelling on the Jacobite will be enjoying a heat free experience. Will WCRC provide blankets and complementary hot drinks?

Footwarmers would be the traditional approach this problem. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/K6Xj_8O9Sk-xi2h2JfvOuw

 

 

[Morello Cherry]

48 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

London Underground get round this by (as well as passengers not opening the doors) using CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable).  A transpondery-thing under the far end of the platform releases the doors on that side only, with no input from the driver (sorry, operator).

 

My memory is very hazy but I recall many years (late 80s early 90s maybe) ago a piece on one of the current affairs programmes where a rent-a-gob MP (someone like Jerry Hayes or Tony Banks) who had been critical of underground drivers was invited to drive a train on the underground system. I seem to recall that at the first or second station he managed to (or tried to - I don't know if it was even possible) open the doors on the wrong side  and was given very short shrift by the people with him. (It was a very long time ago and the details maybe wrong but opening the doors on the wrong side (or at least trying to) was something that stuck in my memory from the story)

[TheSignalEngineer]

57 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Footwarmers would be the traditional approach this problem. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/K6Xj_8O9Sk-xi2h2JfvOuw

 

 

In the mid 1960s we had an S&T office on platform 1 at New Street which on old plans was shown as the Footwarmer store.

[woodenhead]

Some analysis of the service that failed?

 

Has the train actually run since Monday?

Edited April 19 by woodenhead

[Jim Martin]

I tested the "wrong side doors" thing on a 777 on the way to work this morning. Moorfields is basically an island platform (it's actually an underground station, but access to the Northern Line platforms is from between them), so the platform is always to the right of the train. I pressed the door button on the left side of the train when we ducked into the tunnel, and the correct door opened when we stopped.

[woodenhead]

So the Jacobite is running (or is it)

https://westcoastrailways.co.uk/news/jacobite-seats-available-to-book

 

Cash only, pay the guard on the platform if there are seats available.

 

So if you are not in Fort William and the train happens to be in the platform and is allowing passengers to enter then you're not getting a trip.

 

Has it actually run since Monday?

 

Edit: it did run today, it arrived back 18 minutes early from Mallaig and went off to the coach sidings 25 minutes early

Edited April 19 by woodenhead

[ruggedpeak]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Some analysis of the service that failed?

 

Has the train actually run since Monday?

A quick synopsis of their comments, based upon the limited information available to them:

• WCRC is operating Mk1s without a reg 5 exemption and with the doors locked out of use.
• Doors locked out of use are still doors, and appear to be deemed 'defective doors' rather than them no longer being doors
• Under the RSSB regs a train with defective doors should not leave the depot unless there is some form of pre-existing RSSB derogation/exemption
• Does not appear to derogation or exemption in place

This leaves the question as to whether it is legal to have the Mk1's in a train on the network at all........

[rodent279]

On 18/04/2024 at 09:36, phil-b259 said:

CDL does NOT ‘control’ the doors!

It does in the sense that doors can't be opened until released by the CDL mechanism,  which is what i was getting at.

[ess1uk]

On 09/04/2024 at 11:47, ruggedpeak said:

All the seats in RAF passenger aircraft face rearwards for safety 

Not the ones I’ve been on

[Legend]

17 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

A quick synopsis of their comments, based upon the limited information available to them:

• WCRC is operating Mk1s without a reg 5 exemption and with the doors locked out of use.
• Doors locked out of use are still doors, and appear to be deemed 'defective doors' rather than them no longer being doors
• Under the RSSB regs a train with defective doors should not leave the depot unless there is some form of pre-existing RSSB derogation/exemption
• Does not appear to derogation or exemption in place

This leaves the question as to whether it is legal to have the Mk1's in a train on the network at all........

I’m sure the ORR will be having a close look .  Why do they not just run the 3 mk2s (with CDL) and the mk1 maintenance coach . I’m puzzled why they need the RMB .  And surely they can find/buy/hire further mk2s that would extend train to 5 coaches ? 
 

Overall given the antics , I’m still forming the opinion that this is a company not running within the spirit of the rules and seeking to find loopholes . Still not convinced with that attitude it’s fit to be on the railway at all 

Edited April 20 by Legend