WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[Morello Cherry]

27 minutes ago, BoD said:

Doesn’t look very woke baby millennial to me.

 

 

That was the point. Unfortunately sarcasm does not translate well to text.

 

The WCR apologists in this thread and elsewhere are very keen to attribute the need for CDL and no window hanging to be because everyone is so mollycoddled today and 'back in my day' everyone managed fine.

 

27 minutes ago, BoD said:

 

Not quite sure what it has to do with WCRC’s battle with the ORR

 

The drivers for improved safety - whether that is CDL or raising platform heights are accidents involving the public. The guy in the story has a point, even if he frankly lays it on thick in the article. This is very much connected to WCR and ORR because this is a safety issue and a cause of potentially avoidable accidents which is what we all want to see prevented. And there is a double standard because while some will tilt at windmills because they can't ride in a mk 1, no one is going to kick back at uneven or low platforms, even though they are two sides of the same coin.

 

My point, if inelegantly made, is that H&S improvements on the railway such as CDL are not being driven by some anti-WCR or anti-heritage agenda, or because modern parents or youth are mollycoddled and babied but because people of any generation complain and lobby and because it is (eventually) decided by the authorities that an average of an accident a day is too high and something needs to be done

Edited May 4 by Morello Cherry

[pete_mcfarlane]

45 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

Here is another of those woke baby millennials 'elf 'n safety freaks complaining about the sort thing that we used to deal with in ease in our day. Needs to grow up and start taking responsibility. I blame the parents myself.

 

Minding the gap: 'It's a scandal, it's a death trap'

 

A candidate for this

 

Some quality compo face work, as they say in Angry People in Local Newspapers. As always you have to suspect there's probably more to the story than what's in the article. 

 

What it does illustrate is the point about people struggling with unfamiliar situations (as per the comments about slam doors being an unknown for most people these days). If you're from Landaaan and don't travel much by train, then suddenly having to deal with a step down from the train to the platform at an unfamiliar Network Rail station is going to be an issue.

[Grovenor]

But steps down from trains are the norm all over the country, although maybe only London has places where you need to step up onto the platform. For new builds things are very strict and level only a very small gap is mandated. Which practically rules out any significant curvature through platforms. Always noticeable when getting from DLR which had to meet these requirements then changing trains in Stratford where Network Rail has yawning gaps such that quite large people could easily fall onto the track under a train doorsill. These days its common elsewhere to have active gap fillers linked to door opening and when the ORR get around to it you can expect a call for Mk 1s to be retrofitted. Probably get a 20 year grace period. 😄

 

[Morello Cherry]

13 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Some quality compo face work, as they say in Angry People in Local Newspapers. As always you have to suspect there's probably more to the story than what's in the article. 

 

What it does illustrate is the point about people struggling with unfamiliar situations (as per the comments about slam doors being an unknown for most people these days). If you're from Landaaan and don't travel much by train, then suddenly having to deal with a step down from the train to the platform at an unfamiliar Network Rail station is going to be an issue.

 

Indeed, I also have in my mind that I've seen photos of platforms in either rural scotland or wales that are so low that there is box type object that is put under the door to provide a step between carriage and platform. It is the sort of thing that you could be confronted with on any part of the network. So for all the compo face work and somewhat hysterical headline the guy has a point.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

31 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

Indeed, I also have in my mind that I've seen photos of platforms in either rural scotland or wales that are so low that there is box type object that is put under the door to provide a step between carriage and platform. It is the sort of thing that you could be confronted with on any part of the network. So for all the compo face work and somewhat hysterical headline the guy has a point.

The only places I've known with box steps in recent years have been single door only stations, so the guard is always on hand to offer assistance. I think all the Cumbrian Coast platforms have now been built up to not need box steps.

 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

My point, if inelegantly made, is that H&S improvements on the railway such as CDL are not being driven by some anti-WCR or anti-heritage agenda, or because modern parents or youth are mollycoddled and babied but because people of any generation complain and lobby and because it is (eventually) decided by the authorities that an average of an accident a day is too high and something needs to be done

And because people-real people-die or are seriously injured. And they are not all namby-pamby mollycoddled youngsters either.

 

The unfortunate thing is that it takes so long for authority to take actions.

[Morello Cherry]

12 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

And because people-real people-die or are seriously injured. And they are not all namby-pamby mollycoddled youngsters either.

 

The unfortunate thing is that it takes so long for authority to take actions.

 

Exactly, and I don't see any difference when the relevant authorities say 'we recognise that the platforms at station x pose an unacceptable risk to passengers therefore NR/local authorities will need to spend money in raising the platform' (although it is recommendation rather than compulsion) and the ORR saying 'mk1s without CDL pose an unacceptable risk to passengers there the operators will need to spend money fitting CDL'. (Compulsion because they didn't fulfil the alternative arrangements to mitigate).

[Matt37268]

42 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The only places I've known with box steps in recent years have been single door only stations, so the guard is always on hand to offer assistance. I think all the Cumbrian Coast platforms have now been built up to not need box steps.

 

Does Pickering still have them? 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Grovenor said:

But steps down from trains are the norm all over the country, although maybe only London has places where you need to step up onto the platform. For new builds things are very strict and level only a very small gap is mandated. Which practically rules out any significant curvature through platforms. Always noticeable when getting from DLR which had to meet these requirements then changing trains in Stratford where Network Rail has yawning gaps such that quite large people could easily fall onto the track under a train doorsill. These days its common elsewhere to have active gap fillers linked to door opening and when the ORR get around to it you can expect a call for Mk 1s to be retrofitted. Probably get a 20 year grace period. 😄

 

And something about this case seems a bit odd to me as the Relief Line platform surfaces at Ealing Broadway were raised in comparatively recent times - i think probably in association with Crossrail works at the station.    I don't recall there being such a high stepping distance from either 165/6 DMUs or from 387s as that photo of the Class 345 suggests. 

 

I also wonder where he was travelling from as the photo shows the Up Relief platform which means he would have travelled from somewhere between reading (inclusive) and Ealing Broadway.  Reading of course has completely new platforms on the lines used by Liz Line trains and their heights are to current standards but the heights at intermediate stations do vary a bit and long have although I'm fairly sure that all Relief Line platforms have been raised over the years (but  don't know about Hanwell).  However I do know that some stations have suitable bridging boards for Class 345s  so they clearly do not offer totally level access.  So is there also something arising from Class 345 floor height above rail I wonder?  - I'll check the next time I have the misfortune to board or alight from one (or watch while I wait for a following Class 387) but I'm pretty sure the 345 involves a step up/down at Twyford.

[jjb1970]

Some of the platform gaps at Berkhampstead are huge, the combination of a curved platform, doors are 2/3 inboard from the vehicle ends and a significant height difference.  

[jjb1970]

On steam, I  really don't get that enthusiastic about steam specials so I am not the target market for what it's worth I don't get that enthusiastic about preserved diesel mainline running either). I am happy to see old trains in museums.

 

I was born after the end of mainline steam in Britain but did see mainline steam in China and something which surprised me was how different working steam felt relative to preserved steam. Seeing the big QJ kettles shunting in yards and on goods trains was way more impressive to me than something like FS on a rail tour. The engines weren't mollycoddled or polished but neither were they abandoned to whatever filth might accumulate and were clearly regularly cleaned. 

[Dunsignalling]

IMHO, WCRC's position seems to have stemmed from resistance and prevarication over updating most of their fleet, which was bound, sooner or later, to exhaust the patience of the regulator.

 

Just a couple of more general points, though.

 

Unfamiliarity with slam door stock: How many people booking on mainline steam specials will not have previously encountered Mk.1 stock on heritage lines? 

 

Any issue with having to step up to platform height form a Mk.1 would presumably be a matter of route availability. One simply wouldn't be able to open the doors....

 

However modified to keep up with the times, Mk.1s are getting old and will become increasingly difficult and expensive to maintain for running at up to 75/90mph.

 

Now is surely the time for operators to be acquiring rakes of Mk3s, and equipping them with generator cars, before they all get exported or scrapped.  

 

John

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Now is surely the time for operators to be acquiring rakes of Mk3s, and equipping them with generator cars, before they all get exported or scrapped.  

 

That boat has sailed, most mk3’s are either preserved now or scrapped.

HST mk3’s arent hauled stock potential really, and are going overseas anyway.

 

Mk3’s arent exactly popular with enthusiasts anyway, mk2def arent either.

And for generator cars, ERS already have the mk5 (EPS) ones, only 3 mk3 Brakes exist (17173-5 and are in use on the PZ sleeper), and the mk2 brake supply is a finite quantity having been paid off 2 decades ago.

 

Thing is is the only passengers wanting to travel in “coffins” as they are known, are the “dining elite” set.. you dont need many rakes.. just a few dining sets… which brings us to the other problem.. Kitchens… not many of them that arent mk1’s.

 

I dont see anyone being successful longterm with mk2def/mk3/4/5 stock for enthusiast tours as enthusiast interest riding them is slim.. they cannot hear the loco, they cannot see the loco and they cannot smell it… so why bother to go on it, it offers not much beyond a Pendolino.

so basically eliminate this market.

 

At that point you dont need many diesels, or steam locos either… Think Tyseley.. 1 rake, 1 diesel and 3 steam locos (rotated over 10 years to give 2 at a time), operated that way for 2 decades now… replicate that once in the SE, SW, Crewe, Scotland thats country covered and more than needed… 

 

The UK would be similar to models in other countries then, like Rovos rail in South Africa, or scenic lines in the US / Australia, a could of set routes like Paignton, Surrey Hills, Scarborough, Stratford, Holyhead, plus the Royal Scotsman and dont bother with other itiniers just feed off profitable dining elites/ tourists from cities like Bristol, Birmingham, York, London and Manchester.

 

In that sense the 5 already exist.. LSL, TYS, Northern Belle, VSOE, Royal Scotsman, with room for 1 more luxury set.
Then theres the occasional odd balls, like 4tc, 142 , Scr Push Pull set and Riveria trains mk2’s for enthusiasts maybe once a month or in winter when demand for luxury trips is quiet.

 

in short I dont see why wcrc would bother without mk1’s, it could be completely shutdown and everything scrapped, site redeveloped for housing and maybe worth >£100mn… I dont really know why they are bothering to put up this fight as they do, for £2mn a year, when the whole hobby, industry and regulator is against them and not much chance of winning. Then look see the current business model is going to fail on costs anyway. It would be easier to Demolish it all, scrap the lot, write off the tax loss and offset it against site redevelopment. Take the really big money and give everyone the finger from a brand new yacht on a caribbean island sharing a Jubilees name.

Edited May 5 by adb968008

[rodent279]

Do WCRC actually own the Carnforth site, or is it leased from one of BR's successors?

[adb968008]

49 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Do WCRC actually own the Carnforth site, or is it leased from one of BR's successors?

companies house showed a nearly 25 acre mortgage in the 1990’s by Carnforth station by Steamtown ltd.

Pretty good assumption that land size of 25 football fields would be the shed and surrounding land.

so they must do.

 

The shed and turntable are listed

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1342134?section=official-list-entry

But only the original parts, not the extensions.
 

But just like Swindon it doesnt prevent redevelopment, convert the shed into say flats for instance.

 

Swindon still has its turntable too, as a display object, could be a flowerbed or water feature and form part of the estate entry road.

Scrapping one of the stanier locos like 45699, 44932 or 48151 and randomly putting parts as art around the site to keep the historic nod back adds value to the land and property.

 

The coaling towers are also listed, I’d imagine this too could become a couple of quirky flats and a rooftop bar.

 

whilst its fantasy redvelopment, theres more potential than whats currently there and lets face it what we are looking at is the end of the road sooner rather than later, even if wcrc modded up and complied, the game will come to an inevitable end.

 

Steamtown closed down 34 years ago, the site has just been a home for a business since. If this business is at risk long term then you have to wonder why fight. Turning it back to a museum has no real potential, the hobby moved on. Its location is poor for starting railtours except up the wcml, and if that access goes the cumbrian coast is a poor substitute, bnfl trips are long gone. If wcrc’s future is Northern Belle, they could find a home base elsewhere for it and a handful of diesels, rent a road at Newton Heath or such like, or move to Bury with the steam locos.

 

The site is nearly a mile long in total, looking at the surrounds that could be good for 200 properties, close to the coast, lakes, next to both a station, motorway and commutable to Lancaster, Preston and Manchester.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5 by adb968008

[rodent279]

As you say, if they are sitting on a pile of assets, and want to get off the bus, you'd think they'd just sell up,  rather than pick a fight with the authorities. 

[GrumpyPenguin]

15 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

Here is another of those woke baby millennials 'elf 'n safety freaks complaining about the sort thing that we used to deal with in ease in our day. Needs to grow up and start taking responsibility. I blame the parents myself.

 

Minding the gap: 'It's a scandal, it's a death trap'

 

A candidate for this

Really ?

 

Just wait until you are an old git (like me) or whose wife becomes disabled, you will change your mind then.

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Unfamiliarity with slam door stock: How many people booking on mainline steam specials will not have previously encountered Mk.1 stock on heritage lines? 

All the Harry Potter nutters from the USA, Japan and other parts of the world. 

[MarkC]

It's all very well talking about redevelopment of the 10A site for housing, but I suspect that there would have to be a massive clearup operation, and given that there is likely to be asbestos & other nasties in the ground, excavation to a metre down or more might be required.

 

I live near the site of an old asbestos works (as does another member of this parish), and before housing could be built on it, it had to be dug down over 2 metres, if not 3, if memory serves, and the material removed in sealed lorries to a processing site, cleaned of nasties & returned to site. Very expensive, and probably only about a third of the area that 10A covers.

 

Mark

[Bucoops]

5 minutes ago, MarkC said:

It's all very well talking about redevelopment of the 10A site for housing, but I suspect that there would have to be a massive clearup operation, and given that there is likely to be asbestos & other nasties in the ground, excavation to a metre down or more might be required.

 

I live near the site of an old asbestos works (as does another member of this parish), and before housing could be built on it, it had to be dug down over 2 metres, if not 3, if memory serves, and the material removed in sealed lorries to a processing site, cleaned of nasties & returned to site. Very expensive, and probably only about a third of the area that 10A covers.

 

Mark

 

And the asbestos just gets buried in an old quarry anyway.

[MarkC]

1 minute ago, Bucoops said:

 

And the asbestos just gets buried in an old quarry anyway.

"Someone else's problem in years to come" - but at least its location will be known about & its contents sealed up - in theory anyway...

 

Mark

[jjb1970]

This is a big problem for old coal fired power stations, the cost of restoring the ground can be a nightmare. Decades of accumulated hazardous contamination. I saw reports for some of my former employers sites and they weren't pleasant reading.

[Wheatley]

9 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Really ?

No, not really. Read the subsequent posts. 

 

Not familiar with Ealing Broadway but at those stations where there is still a significant gap there is usually a good reason, one of:

 

1. The station has so few users it's somewhere towards the CP11 end of Network Rail's 'to do' list. In the meantime it might get an Easy Acess Area (Harrington Hump). 

 

2. It's earmarked to be done as part of a wider project (there's a lot of platform works being done as part of Transpennine Route Upgrade including entirely new stations.)

 

3. Only part of the platform is non-compliant and the risk can be managed using selective door opening or local door only. 

 

4. It's so complicated to do it can only be done as part of a much wider scheme. Salford Central has just been done, huge gap at a very busy station. Complicating factors were that its on a viaduct, there's no access for plant and machinery without shutting half of Salford down, its on a key route which was already heavily disrupted by TRU work at other locations and it got embroiled in a sequence of funding stop-starts, mostly the Northern Powerhouse "You can have the money for the sexy new bridge but not all the other bits needed to make Ordsall Curve work" debacle. 

 

5. It's physically impossible to do because of platform curvature. 

 

The 1996 HMRI requirements which brought in the 275/250*/350mm limits also banned new platforms on gradients and curves outside very tight limits. *(Now 230mm vertical). 

Edited May 5 by Wheatley

[Morello Cherry]

7 minutes ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

Really ?

 

Just wait until you are an old git (like me) or whose wife becomes disabled, you will change your mind then.

 

Erm if you'd read on you'd have seen that I agreed with his point about uneven platform height as a safety issue and I said that it was good that the authorities are taking steps to improve the issue although it is all too slow. It is an issue across across the country and one that impacts on all users old, less mobile and the young.

 

I find it ironic that someone who earlier in this thread was calling children 'brutes' and demanding parents take responsibility for their safety on the railway, getting worked up about low platform heights just because it is something that directly impacts upon them.

[Bucoops]

24 minutes ago, MarkC said:

"Someone else's problem in years to come" - but at least its location will be known about & its contents sealed up - in theory anyway...

 

Mark

 

They do place large membranes over each layer when covering with soil - but it's interesting to watch the sealed bags that get dumped there run over and popped by the heavy digger to minimise air gaps!