WCRC - the ongoing battle with ORR.

[phil-b259]

12 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Not all main line certified steam locos have air brakes and that includes most of the WCRC fleet.  It also needs the stock to be air or dual braked which, again, those used by WCRC on the Jacobite aren't.

 

A cynic would suggest this is more evidence of WCR wanting to do things on the cheap and not spend money.

 

Plenty of other loco operators have invested in air braking for their fleets / locos (which has the added advantage that they don't have to drag a vac braked diesel along with them /  have it stabled close by*) as so its not insurmountable or crippling costs wise.

 

* A NR requirement because every commercially operated loco on NR which could theoretically be called upon to assist a failed charter is air brake only

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

A cynic would suggest this is more evidence of WCR wanting to do things on the cheap and not spend money.

 

Plenty of other loco operators have invested in air braking for their fleets / locos (which has the added advantage that they don't have to drag a vac braked diesel along with them /  have it stabled close by*) as so its not insurmountable or crippling costs wise.

 

* A NR requirement because every commercially operated loco on NR which could theoretically be called upon to assist a failed charter is air brake only

If that argument were to stand up, every commercially operated loco on NR which could theoretically be called upon to assist a failed train should have a compatible coupling… of which there is no standard across the industry and leads to painful delays when compatible stock has to be sourced and manoeuvred into a rescue position.

[adb968008]

52 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

ORR does not operate on tittle tattle and heresay evidence. That might get you a visit but it won't get you a ban, they went to look for themselves. From ORR's statement, my italics:

 

"Safety inspectors from ORR subsequently visited the Jacobite service run by WCRCL on Friday 14 July. This inspection found safety failings which ORR considered breached the earlier prohibition notice and the conditions contained in WCRCL's Railway Safety Regulation Exemption Certificate." 

 

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2023/07/orr-release-statement-on-jacobite-steam-train-cancellations.html

Without evidence its still one persons word against another.

The defence could call this Mandy Rice-Davies applies against the ORR in a separate legal dispute.

 

Thats why courts rely on evidence, which should be easy… photographs, cctv etc.

 

Evidence of window hanging is clear on the last page, I counted 6 people in the picture… no arguing against that, except proving date, digital manipulation, which is highly unlikely to be in dispute given the topic / situation.

 

Equally the viaduct is obstruction free, if the train stopped for a moment, this could be sensibly managed. There is precedence, WCRC has several times momentarily stopped on Ribblehead for instance.

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

If that argument were to stand up, every commercially operated loco on NR which could theoretically be called upon to assist a failed train should have a compatible coupling… of which there is no standard across the industry and leads to painful delays when compatible stock has to be sourced and manoeuvred into a rescue position.

 

Its a numbers game - plus its not written in stone that you must rescue a did multiple unit with a loco!

 

If an Electrostar , or a Thameslink unit, or an Azuma, or a Voyager,or a Pendalino fails there is a good chance there will be another unit of the same class nearby which can be used to assist.

 

If its a freight train that fails there is a reasonable chance there will be another air braked loco somewhere reasonably close by that can assist.

 

If its a vacuum braked train then you don't exactly have many locos available to help! As such NR have made it a requirement that if a charter train uses vacuum brakes then it must either have two locos on it or the charter must be shadowed by / have a vac braked thunderbird provided by the charter train company crewed and ready to go at a suitable strategic location.

[beast66606]

54 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

And thats the point - if one operator can do it so can the rest!

 

 

Not every operator has £600k lying around, thats like saying if one person can afford a Lotus then so can everyone - life is not that simple.

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Its a numbers game - plus its not written in stone that you must rescue a did multiple unit with a loco!

 

If an Electrostar , or a Thameslink unit, or an Azuma, or a Voyager,or a Pendalino fails there is a good chance there will be another unit of the same class nearby which can be used to assist.

 

If its a freight train that fails there is a reasonable chance there will be another air braked loco somewhere reasonably close by that can assist.

 

If its a vacuum braked train then you don't exactly have many locos available to help! As such NR have made it a requirement that if a charter train uses vacuum brakes then it must either have two locos on it or the charter must be shadowed by / have a vac braked thunderbird provided by the charter train company crewed and ready to go at a suitable strategic location.

A lot of reasonable statements there.

Whats missing is probability.

 

Theres a greater probabilty of a commercial service breaking down, than a vac braked charter, based on volume of service operated.

when a charter fails its big news, when a service train fails its a daily occurence, yet its tolerated.

i’m sorry but its an inequality.

 

Theres a network rail 153 navigating the SE lines in Kent right now, if that failed, the nearest sprinter is probably Norwich, or a 159 from Waterloo.. good luck with that. NR clearly not applying the standard to themselves (and looking at RTT something does seem to have gone wrong too).

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[96701]

1 minute ago, beast66606 said:

 

Not every operator has £600k lying around, thats like saying if one person can afford a Lotus then so can everyone - life is not that simple.

If the business model does not provide sufficient funds to meet safety requirements, then it does not deserve to be in business.

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, 96701 said:

If the business model does not provide sufficient funds to meet safety requirements, then it does not deserve to be in business.

That shuts down every preserved line in the country then. They survive off exemptions.

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[96701]

Just now, adb968008 said:

That shuts down every preserved line in the country then. They survive off exemptions.

No it doesn't. It means they work to the exemptions.

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, 96701 said:

No it doesn't. It means they work to the exemptions.

Isnt that the same thing as not meeting the standard ?

 

You cannot be not meeting a standard, but still meeting the standard.

 

£1 is £1, if you accept 70p that doesnt make it £1, its 70p your accepting with a 30p exemption.

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[96701]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Isnt that the same thing as not meeting the standard ?

 

You cannot be not meeting a standard, but still meeting the standard.

 

£1 is £1, if you accept 70p that doesnt make it £1, its 70p your accepting.

An exemption to a standard means that you don't have to comply with the standard, but you do have to comply with the exemption. 

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, 96701 said:

An exemption to a standard means that you don't have to comply with the standard, but you do have to comply with the exemption. 

But thats not what you said.

 

Quote

If the business model does not provide sufficient funds to meet safety requirements, then it does not deserve to be in business.

It was imo a sweeping generalisation.

 

I also dont doubt WCRC access to funds either. Theyve been around for years, have a huge fleet, paid staff and by all accounts look to be doing well. The contention appears to be allegedly around not meeting exemptions agreed..

i.e. 60p, not70p.

That is rightly being called out.

 

But calling for everything to be shut down, sounds alarmist.

At some point they will need to pony up. And they have a choice then of doing it, or giving up.

 

imo it just feels like a stall for more time, rather than a poverty bucket.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[didcot]

The difference is that you are running trains on the national network and as such is more heavily regulated than a preserved lines.

Don't preserved lines fall under the light railway banner and thus restricted to 25mph? Hence the exemption in certain areas.

Edited July 24, 2023 by didcot

[Nick C]

15 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

That shuts down every preserved line in the country then. They survive off exemptions.

Heritage railways run at a much lower speed (25mph max), they also have more staff on the platforms, and a much more controlled environment - it's a lot easier to keep 10-15 miles of track clear of potential window-leaning-hazards than it is the thousands of miles on NR, for example. They'll also have safety management systems tailored to their specific circumstances.

[Mike_Walker]

The requirements in question currently apply only to the main line network not heritage lines.  WCRC applied for an exemption from having CDL which was granted by the ORR on the condition that a form of door lock was fitted and each door has a steward to operate the lock and prevent passengers sticking their heads out.  The locks are a draw bolt described earlier as a 99p toilet door lock but is actually a stronger example from Travis Perkins - the exemption notice specifies their catalogue number.  Whilst WCRC agreed to these conditions they have failed to fully implement them which was discovered when ORR inspectors visited the operation.  They were taken to task and agreed to conform.  Once the inspectors left it seems they went back to their old ways.  The inspectors returned and found this so the prohibition was issued.

 

Whilst another charter operator has fitted all its stock with CDL and window bars, another is operating under the same exemption as WCRC but the difference is they are complying fully with the requirements.

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, didcot said:

The difference is that you are running trains on the national network and as such is more heavily regulated than a preserved lines.

Don't preserved lines fall under the light railway banner and thus restricted to 25mph? Hence the exemption. 

 

9 minutes ago, Nick C said:

Heritage railways run at a much lower speed (25mph max), they also have more staff on the platforms, and a much more controlled environment - it's a lot easier to keep 10-15 miles of track clear of potential window-leaning-hazards than it is the thousands of miles on NR, for example. They'll also have safety management systems tailored to their specific circumstances.

 

6 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

The requirements in question currently apply only to the main line network not heritage lines.  WCRC applied for an exemption from having CDL which was granted by the ORR on the condition that a form of door lock was fitted and each door has a steward to operate the lock and prevent passengers sticking their heads out.  The locks are a draw bolt described earlier as a 99p toilet door lock but is actually a stronger example from Travis Perkins - the exemption notice specifies their catalogue number.  Whilst WCRC agreed to these conditions they have failed to fully implement them which was discovered when ORR inspectors visited the operation.  They were taken to task and agreed to conform.  Once the inspectors left it seems they went back to their old ways.  The inspectors returned and found this so the prohibition was issued.

 

Whilst another charter operator has fitted all its stock with CDL and window bars, another is operating under the same exemption as WCRC but the difference is they are complying fully with the requirements.

No argument for me.

 

my issue was with the generalisation wording of the statement that looked design to catch all.

The Op has roundabout clarified that.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[didcot]

That sums it up nicely @Mike_Walker

Edited July 24, 2023 by didcot

[adb968008]

WCRc are like Pacers.

 

it brings out huge negative emotions from those you would consider to be supporters.

Its a strangely British thing, to seek to destroy something to which has been built.

 

If this was the US, supporters would be seeking to encourage them to get on with it, and resolve it, to carry on.

Here people seek victory in destruction.

 

It wont change the outcome however, as none of us are party to it.

 

But losing WCRC or WHL would be a big loss to the hobby, I fail to see why celebrating and encouraging it is a good thing.

 

Maybe someone could explain why losing WCRC or steam in the WHL is a good thing ?

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Maybe someone could explain why losing WCRC or steam in the WHL is a good thing ?

Because at the beginning there was just WCRC and they carved a niche which was welcome, then we learnt they were cutting corners to make it pay and they got punished for that.  What we see now is that they continue to push the envelope when it comes to rules and regulations.

 

But the difference now is that there are other very competent organisations running tours that could take on some or all of what WCRC does if they don't work with the ORR rather than against.

[PhilH]

57 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

 

But the difference now is that there are other very competent organisations running tours that could take on some or all of what WCRC does if they don't work with the ORR rather than against.

The problem there is there aren’t that many organisations able to provide suitable motive power for these excursions.

[didcot]

The set up at Crewe is probably on equal terms these day with West Coast. 

I don't know if they are a TOC in their own right or have to use the services of West Coast and the like to provide drivers for their tours. There are a number of groups with mainline registered motive power, but the crews to operate them must be thin on the ground. 

Edited July 24, 2023 by didcot

[melmerby]

18 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

can also remember seeing someone being hit by a door that had been opened before the train had stopped.

I had that once in New St when waiting for a train on a crowded platform, I was knocked to the floor in no uncertain manner, fortunately only bruises.

I could've sustained a head injury or rolled off the platform edge.

The person responsible realised what they had done and immediately slammed the coach door and disappeared into the mass of bodies inside. A right Sh*thole.

[melmerby]

51 minutes ago, PhilH said:

The problem there is there aren’t that many organisations able to provide suitable motive power for these excursions.

Vintage Trains?

[adb968008]

Steam tocs have gone through phases.
 

Wasnt there two other operators alongside WCRC and DB ? (Victa and Fragonset ?)

Following Wootton Bassett LSL and Tyseley became tocs, I think DCR briefly ran some steam non-railtour moves with 61306.

 

Becoming a toc with a steam-safety case is one thing, replacing Carnforth and the engineering base is a whole other.

 

If WCRC ends, it doesnt neccessarily go hand in hand that Carnforth will survive with the company… it could simply close / be abandoned. 

it would represent the last ever large sale of mk1’s for the hobby and so competition would be fierce.

 

Steam from London has really took a hammering since 2013, its a fraction of what it was, for similar reasons..There was times you'd see 4-5 in ticket steam locos at Southall… 30777, 34046,34067,4464, 45305, 70013 virtually called it home at one point.

 

Today its 61306 and thats it for nearly half a decade.

 

if you enjoy mainline steam, becareful what you wish for…

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[johnofwessex]

There are two comments I might make.

 

I have a suspicion that there are certain things that WCRC does on the 'commercial' side of the railway that nobody else does/is interested in etc which is why they were allowed to carry on after Wootton Bassett  

 

Also of course over time as the numbers of passengers killed in major accidents drops - remember that there were something like 13 years with no 'on train' fatalities inevitably inspectors will be able to start looking harder at all the other causes of deaths and injury