RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 23, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) About to paint my O Gauge kit built LNER A4 in 1930`s livery but I`m unconvinced that the available Garter Blue paint offerings are the real deal..................................... Accepting all the likely issues with old colour photos and Digital camera interpretations of the colour blue. I`ll start with these photo`s c1930`s. plus the preserved example at the NRM................................. ....and comparing them with the following examples of Humbrol acrylic matt. Railmatch enamel satin. Humbrol enamel satin. all of which have a grey`ish inky blue hue. Where do I go from here ???? Edited July 24, 2023 by ROSSPOP wrong photo 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said: Where do I go from here ???? Paint up some bigger samples - with a varnish over that matt ( at least ) - and treat yourself to a day trip to York, p'raps ? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 30368 Posted July 23, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 23, 2023 Have you been in touch with the LNER Society? They may be able to advise although I suspect this question is a bit tricky due to 1930s colour film emulsions, faded paintwork and the effect of sunlight on how we perceive a colour. My reflex to your samples was that number 3 is the closest but that is just my opinion. Kind regards, Richard B 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted July 23, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2023 Good question indeed. I'll add to the mix (sorry!) - two photos taken on the same day - I believe two different cameras (the one that was used for the second photo is round my neck in the first! Do you have a build thread for your kit at all? 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 23, 2023 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Bucoops said: Good question indeed. I'll add to the mix (sorry!) - two photos taken on the same day - I believe two different cameras (the one that was used for the second photo is round my neck in the first! Do you have a build thread for your kit at all? Thankyou very much Bucoops your photos have certainly `stirred` it all up for me. Any chance of a date and type of camera and film for the record please. ( it`s such an ugly colour but matches my Railmatch and Humbrol enamels) A very much appreciated John PS. I do have a build record. It`s a fully working and soldered Hatchette. Edited July 23, 2023 by ROSSPOP add mor info 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Just to add my 2p's worth. When I was making the Dapol kit of DELTIC years ago I contacted the Science Museum to ask what the correct shade of blue was. I work over the road at the V&A Museum so used to pop in to see DELTIC regularly. They said they had some paint from EE when the locomo was preserved so they could touch up any damaged bits. To help modellers when the Dapol kit came out they took some of this paint and painted a sheet of cardboard and offered as a sample. I collected mine from there and thought straightaway it was too dark, so went and found DELTIC to compare and it was a complete match of course. The moral of this tale is that paint colours in photos especially old ones can vary greatly. I would suggest perhaps contacting the NRM and asking them what the colour is that was used on 4468 Mallard. When I last saw it in January the Garter Blue is darker than people imagine. Simon 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted July 23, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said: Thankyou very much Bucoops your photos have certainly `stirred` it all up for me. Any chance of a date and type of camera and film for the record please. ( it`s such an ugly colour but matches my Railmatch and Humbrol enamels) A very much appreciated John PS. I do have a build record. It`s a fully working and soldered Hatchette. Ok... we believe they were taken 2nd November 1986. The photos are scans of prints, not the negatives. I suspect the first picture was taken by my Grandad, unfortunately I have no idea what he used. My camera I am pretty sure was an Ilford Sprite 35 - my Grandpa used to work for Ilford. The film was likely to be another brand however. We used Boots' own quite a lot, but not sure if it was that far back. That's about the best I can do unfortunately. Somewhere there is another photo from the same day of a filthy Sir Nigel Gresley against the wall in the background, but I've not come across that one yet. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Hornby Dublo thought it looked like this when the model was made in 1938, and since they could go and look at one, they possibly knew. 2 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc60015 Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 17 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: Hornby Dublo thought it looked like this when the model was made in 1938, and since they could go and look at one, they possibly knew. I have found that colour doesn't scale down very well, eg original loco colour always appears to dark on models. OF COURSE IT COULD BE JUST MY PERCEPTION. Cheers Malc 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Do I detect an approaching 'Scale Colour' debate ??!? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 A problem compounded IMO by the modern tendency to use very, very matt finishes, which then present the eye with a lump of solid colour, rather than the way even quite grubby locos reflect a lot of sky brightness. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) A not entirely mischievous suggestion is that you should paint the loco with good old Humbrol No.14 French Blue. Why? Because this is what inspired the design of the A4 streamlining: And, what colour did both the PLM and Bugatti use? French Racing Blue ……. Although if you look at Frenchvrailway modelling forums, and Bugatti car forums, everyone argues about exactly what that colour was and when, too! The PLM repaid the compliment by fitting A4 style streamlining to the front of one of their 231-G class, as part of a set of tests (or where they really no more than publicity stunts?) of various streamlining styles. Edited July 24, 2023 by Nearholmer 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 I think the drag from all that plumbing on the side would have negated any advantage gained by the pointy bit ! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted July 24, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2023 18 hours ago, ROSSPOP said: About to paint my O Gauge kit built LNER A4 in 1930`s livery but I`m unconvinced that the available Garter Blue paint offerings are the real deal..................................... Accepting all the likely issues with old colour photos and Digital camera interpretations of the colour blue. I`ll start with these photo`s c1930`s. plus the preserved example at the NRM................................. ....and comparing them with the following examples of Humbrol acrylic matt. Railmatch enamel satin. Humbrol enamel satin. all of which have a grey`ish inky blue hue. Where do I go from here ???? Don't think I've seen a photo of a blue A4 without a plate. Model that and see what reaction you get! On the question of colour, if no one really knows, or can agree, what shade Garter Blue was- does it really matter? People will argue the toss anyway, so just use a shade you like. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Anyway, a few colour samples : - Shildon : 31/8/75 : AGFA CT18 Rainhill : 25/5/80 : AGFA CT21 Marylebone : 3/2/85 : AGFA CT100 Marylebone : 3/2/85 : AGFA CT100 York : 20/4/19 : Nikon digital I'd say the first and last look quite similar - but the others a little more grey !!?! .... how much is due to lighting conditions or different film ? - who knows ! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said: think the drag from all that plumbing on the side would have negated any advantage gained by the pointy bit ! Yes, at least the one they did in German style had the full cladding. The A4 streamlining/styling was apparently designed by Bulleid, who was a great Francophile, which probably explains all this. He and Gresley had actually travelled in the Bugatti railcar with Ettore Bugatti, As related in H A V Bulleid’s biography of his father. Edited July 24, 2023 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ROSSPOP Posted July 24, 2023 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) Thanks Wickham, your pics are really helpful. I was beginning to lean towards a `lighter` blue for the livery but yours and Mick`s(Bucoops) pics and others observational comments of the real deal at NRM have persuaded me to rethink that the various modelling paint offerings are more prototypical than I first thought. One thing I have learnt is that Digital photo/video cameras interpret the darker/inky/ blue as a brighter cleaner blue. INDOORS ELECTRIC LIGHTING. So.... the dirty blues are correct i think, I`ve almost decided on No 3 Humbrol enamel No221 Garter Blue. OUTSIDE ALMOST SUNSHINE (CRAP WEATHER) Edited July 24, 2023 by ROSSPOP adding more titles 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) The British Colour Council tried to standardise colours across the Empire from about 1930 to the 1950s. Flag makers, the military government departments, etc used its definitions. So I expect there's a good chance that the LNER did too Garter Blue is BCC 132 (Apparently BCC standards were adopted by the BSI as BS 543:1934 -- perhaps someone with a subscription to the BSI service could download the standard and see what it says, please?) Edited July 24, 2023 by BachelorBoy Added details of BSI adopting BCC standards as BS 543:1934 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 14 hours ago, Nearholmer said: A not entirely mischievous suggestion is that you should paint the loco with good old Humbrol No.14 French Blue. Why? Because this is what inspired the design of the A4 streamlining: And, what colour did both the PLM and Bugatti use? French Racing Blue ……. Although if you look at Frenchvrailway modelling forums, and Bugatti car forums, everyone argues about exactly what that colour was and when, too! The PLM repaid the compliment by fitting A4 style streamlining to the front of one of their 231-G class, as part of a set of tests (or where they really no more than publicity stunts?) of various streamlining styles. Humbrol French blue is about the nearest colour to DELTIC blue as I recall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 At risk of annoying the OP by continuing OT, I’d swear blind that No.14 has changed over the years, being darker and more saturated than it was “ back in the day”, when I would agree: it was close to Deltic colour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 17 hours ago, slilley said: I collected mine from there and thought straightaway it was too dark, so went and found DELTIC to compare and it was a complete match of course. Small patches of colour tend to look darker than larger patches. Artists have known this for centuries. So you have dilemma. Do use the exact same paint on your model as used on the actual loco, knowing that it will look wrong, even though it is accurate? Or do you lighten the paint accordingly to look right, knowing that the colour is actually inaccurate? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold rodent279 Posted July 24, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2023 At the risk of going OT, is there much in it between Garter Blue, DELTIC Blue, Electric Blue as used on AC electrics, and Nanking Blue as used on the Blue Pullmans? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said: York : 20/4/19 : Nikon digital I'd say the first and last look quite similar - but the others a little more grey !!?! .... how much is due to lighting conditions or different film ? - who knows ! Even with such a clear photo, it is still impossible to tell what the actual colour is. There are many shades of blue on the loco in the image. Pixellating the image helps to show that. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted July 24, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) Garter blue? Edited July 24, 2023 by Clive Mortimore 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Does anyone know a member of the Order of the Garter who might be able to help ? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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