What might be The Real LNER Garter Blue ? Answer: Humbrol Enamel No 221.continues as The Paint Job.

[BachelorBoy]

1 minute ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

All of the above!

 

 

 

And that, sadly, is the correct answer :-)

 

[Forward!]

There's an A4 apprentice model in the blue scheme at NRM York.  As an apprentice piece I would hazard a guess that it would be finised in the same paint the that was used on the real thing? https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co212376/model-steam-locomotive-mallard-model-locomotive.

 

Caveat that the LNER is not my specialism at all, but the subject of what colour to paint the A4s as top link engines was unlikely to have been decided on a whim. Industry standards were emerging in this period, and beginning to be adopted beyond government (i.e. military) use by private companies to protect 'their' colours as part of corporate branding. I would have thought the LNER would have given it some considerable thought. Consequently, I would be surprised if there was nothing at all recorded in company papers about specifying the precise colour from a paint manufacturer, or instructions for making the colour up in-house. It's probably a question of who's got the inclination and time to bother looking for it!

 

Will

[brossard]

50 minutes ago, Forward! said:

There's an A4 apprentice model in the blue scheme at NRM York.  As an apprentice piece I would hazard a guess that it would be finised in the same paint the that was used on the real thing? https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co212376/model-steam-locomotive-mallard-model-locomotive.

 

Caveat that the LNER is not my specialism at all, but the subject of what colour to paint the A4s as top link engines was unlikely to have been decided on a whim. Industry standards were emerging in this period, and beginning to be adopted beyond government (i.e. military) use by private companies to protect 'their' colours as part of corporate branding. I would have thought the LNER would have given it some considerable thought. Consequently, I would be surprised if there was nothing at all recorded in company papers about specifying the precise colour from a paint manufacturer, or instructions for making the colour up in-house. It's probably a question of who's got the inclination and time to bother looking for it!

 

Will

 

There was likely an official "recipe" that the shops had.  Each shop probably probably mixed their own paints according to the recipe.  Therefore, I can well imagine that each batch of paint was slightly different than the next.

 

There's a story of a meet at a steam museum where Bachmann had a stand.  Story goes that an irate customer lambasted the poor Bachmann rep over their shade of LMS Crimson Lake.  The rep simply asked the fellow to turn around and look at three real LMS locos in crimson lake - each one was slightly different.

 

John

 

John

[BachelorBoy]

12 hours ago, Forward! said:

Caveat that the LNER is not my specialism at all, but the subject of what colour to paint the A4s as top link engines was unlikely to have been decided on a whim. Industry standards were emerging in this period, and beginning to be adopted beyond government (i.e. military) use by private companies to protect 'their' colours as part of corporate branding. I would have thought the LNER would have given it some considerable thought.

I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of anecdote about the origin of the Southern's malachite green:

 

Eustace Missenden, the general manager, and Oliver Bulleid were on the Isle of Wight for Cowes Week when they found some thread in an embroidery shop that they agreed was just the right new colour for the railway's livery.

 

They bought it for reference and Missenden locked it away in his safe to make sure it didn't fade.

[Wickham Green too]

I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of that being proved wrong because personnel and or dates didn't tally.

[BachelorBoy]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I have a vague and possibly unreliable memory of that being proved wrong because personnel and or dates didn't tally.

 

Your vague and possibly unreliable memory may well be more more reliable and less vague than mine.  This is from "A History of the Southern Railway" by Colin Maggs

 

[Steamport Southport]

19 hours ago, brossard said:

 

There was likely an official "recipe" that the shops had.  Each shop probably probably mixed their own paints according to the recipe.  Therefore, I can well imagine that each batch of paint was slightly different than the next.

 

There's a story of a meet at a steam museum where Bachmann had a stand.  Story goes that an irate customer lambasted the poor Bachmann rep over their shade of LMS Crimson Lake.  The rep simply asked the fellow to turn around and look at three real LMS locos in crimson lake - each one was slightly different.

 

John

 

John

 

The LMS bought their Crimson Lake paint from a paint maker in Derby who had been supplying the MR for decades and was a road coach painter before that. Can't remember the name, but it has come up before. Don't know whether they are still going, but they were in the 1970s.

 

By the 1930s which we are discussing most of the paint probably came from ICI, especially for rolling stock.

 

 

The LMS alone had over 10,000 locomotives at it's peak, they weren't exactly a Colonel Stephens railway painting one locomotive a year.

 

 

I do wish the myth that it was mixed by an old bloke in a bathtub and would be different everyday would disappear. They were using thousands of gallons of it a day!

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

26 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

Your vague and possibly unreliable memory may well be more more reliable and less vague than mine.  This is from "A History of the Southern Railway" by Colin Maggs

From Southern Style, The Southern Railway, John Harvey, 2020 : -

"It seems probable that numerous discussions took place, including those relating to livery on a journey from London to the Isle of Wight, when Sir Herbert Walker is reported to have decided on a new green colour. The date of these discussions has been given only as 1936 but the Railway Observer noted in March 1936 that 6-PUL Unit No.2015 had been pained in a "light green", so whether the colour of the unit, which has been described elsewhere as "vivid green" was the same as that decided by the General Manager is not stated, but the available evidence points to a shade not unlike "malachite". ... However, Bulleid, we are told, did not like the chosen green. Whether this refers to the choice made by Sir Herbert Walker or that used on Unit 2015 published accounts do not say, but we are left in no doubt that Bulleid favoured the brighter, bluer green that later became known as malachite green."

 

Yes, it's very clear that nobody clearly knows EXACTLY how pre- or post-war malachite relate to the colour of the spectacle cord.

[Wickham Green too]

22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

...  By the 1930s which we are discussing most of the paint probably came from ICI, especially for rolling stock. ... I do wish the myth that it was mixed by an old bloke in a bathtub and would be different everyday would disappear. They were using thousands of gallons of it a day! 

I do wish someone would explain, therefore, why the LMS seems to have specified paint mixes for wagons and coaches ( at least ), in 1935, that appear in books I have on my shelf.

[Steamport Southport]

16 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

I do wish someone would explain, therefore, why the LMS seems to have specified paint mixes for wagons and coaches ( at least ), in 1935, that appear in books I have on my shelf.

 

Specified. Clue is in the title. That specification would also apply to outside contractors as well as the company.

 

Do you think the Army made their own paint for their tanks? Or dyes for the uniforms? They all had to be of a specified colour or they get rejected.

 

 

And have you seen the quantity that those mixes make once you add all the liquid in? You are talking about physically tons of paint ingredients, not an amount that fits in a small bathtub. This was on an industrial scale.

 

ISTR Derby Litchurch Lane carriage & wagon works alone (and the LMS had a few others) employed about 10,000 workers at it's peak building and repairing wagons. That's a hell of a lot of carriages and wagons needing painting.

 

One bloke mixing paint in a tub and it varying each day is a myth that should have been dispelled years ago. Just seems to be an excuse for people that paint their models the wrong colour....

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

"Mix 12 - Standard LMS Crimson Lake

Standard LMS Lake (paste form)             12lb

Mixing Varnish                                              4lb

Genuine Turpentine                                 3-5lb

Liquid Drier                                                1-3lb"

 

Apart from being extremely vague about the quantities of Turps and Drier - which suggests to me that it's to be judged for immediate application in view of the ambient conditions - that's only 20 to 24lb of mix { about 10kg ) which doesn't sound very industrial to me !

 

[adb968008]

On 26/07/2023 at 18:14, brossard said:

 

There was likely an official "recipe" that the shops had.  Each shop probably probably mixed their own paints according to the recipe.  Therefore, I can well imagine that each batch of paint was slightly different than the next.

 

There's a story of a meet at a steam museum where Bachmann had a stand.  Story goes that an irate customer lambasted the poor Bachmann rep over their shade of LMS Crimson Lake.  The rep simply asked the fellow to turn around and look at three real LMS locos in crimson lake - each one was slightly different.

 

John

 

John

Hornby has got its Duchess maroon dead on imo, I also have a paint shaving off a Duchess nameplate that matched.

 

Railwayana can be a good source of paint shavings, but I do think Dublo was good in some cases, but not all.

Edited July 27, 2023 by adb968008

[BachelorBoy]

10 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 

 

 

BTW what is the recipe for mixing paint that's authentically "Wickham Green"?

 

:-)

[Wickham Green too]

6 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

... the recipe for mixing paint that's authentically "Wickham Green"? ...

As represented on my layout at present : -

Wickham Locomotive Green         :  56% Malachite Green + 22% Maunsell Green + 11% Swindon Green + 11% Doncaster Green

Wickham Passenger Stock Green : 62% Malachite Green + 38% Maunsell Green

[ROSSPOP]

Well yer tis.......

 

First livery coat........

 

 

Change of plan.... have used Railmatch Garter Blue enamel.........

 

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

I see you still haven't found that buffer head ??!? 😢

[ROSSPOP]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I see you still haven't found that buffer head ??!? 😢

Now you know how it is........ I`ve got the buffer head and the tiny spring that goes on it.....it`s the tiny nut that keeps it all in place that`s gone to the carpet monster.......

 

More serious than that ..I dropped the tender chassis soon after etch priming and bent four of the cast brake hangers and rigging....took well over an hour to tweek it all back into shape.......

[rodent279]

At the risk of stirring up a hornets nest, Garter Blue seems almost indistinguishable from Caledonian Blue (the lighter of the two shades).

Maybe a photo of 60022 beside the Caledonian 0-4-4 tank would tell us something?

[57xx]

On 24/07/2023 at 10:15, ROSSPOP said:

Thanks Wickham, your pics are really helpful.

 

I was beginning to lean towards a `lighter` blue for the livery but yours and Mick`s(Bucoops) pics and others observational comments of the real deal at NRM have persuaded me to rethink that the various modelling paint offerings are more prototypical than I first thought.

 

One thing I have learnt is that Digital photo/video cameras interpret the darker/inky/ blue as a brighter cleaner blue.

INDOORS ELECTRIC LIGHTING.

 

So.... the dirty blues are correct i think, I`ve almost decided on No 3 Humbrol enamel No221 Garter Blue.

OUTSIDE ALMOST SUNSHINE (CRAP WEATHER)

 

When I do paint swatches, I try and use the primer I'll be using underneath the top top coat so it gives a closer representation of the actual finish/shade.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 27/07/2023 at 13:58, Steamport Southport said:

 

The LMS bought their Crimson Lake paint from a paint maker in Derby who had been supplying the MR for decades and was a road coach painter before that. Can't remember the name, but it has come up before. Don't know whether they are still going, but they were in the 1970s.

 

By the 1930s which we are discussing most of the paint probably came from ICI, especially for rolling stock.

 

 

The LMS alone had over 10,000 locomotives at it's peak, they weren't exactly a Colonel Stephens railway painting one locomotive a year.

 

 

I do wish the myth that it was mixed by an old bloke in a bathtub and would be different everyday would disappear. They were using thousands of gallons of it a day!

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

I am quite surprised that you dismiss the story as retold by David Jenkinson form an interview he done with the chap who mixed the paint at Swindon.

 

Thousands of gallons a day, can you point to evidence of the amount of paint used daily by the LMS. How much for locomotives, how much for station buildings, how much for road vehicles etc. ?  With such information hopefully would be the figures of how much was supplied mixed and how much was mixed in the paint shop.

[woodenhead]

@Clive Mortimore Given the railways did just about everything in works except grow wood I would think they would produce their own paint.

[Forward!]

Here's the paint stores at Swindon.

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/swindon-works/carriage-wagon-works-24-shop/24-shop-paint-stores-1938-19983666.html

 

No bathtubs in sight!

[Wickham Green too]

As a VERY rough guide, a thousand gallons will cover something like 300,000 square ft - or over 800 coach sides ........... even at umpteen coats and numerous coaches ( etc.) at a time in numerous paintshops  "thousands of gallons of it a day" seems a little excessive.

[Nearholmer]

55 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

@Clive Mortimore Given the railways did just about everything in works except grow wood I would think they would produce their own paint.

 

That made me chuckle, but it is true. The arch exponent of “vertical integration” was the Pennsylvania Railroad, and I am fairly certain they went to the extent of owning forests and coal mines.

[woodenhead]

36 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

That made me chuckle, but it is true. The arch exponent of “vertical integration” was the Pennsylvania Railroad, and I am fairly certain they went to the extent of owning forests and coal mines.

I did think to ask the question "and what forests did the railways own"..😁