Hornby Silver Jubilee A4 Certificate

[KVT]

Hi All

 

Firstly I am not sure if this is allowed so please remove if not allowed.

 

I am trying to find if anyone or any website sells a certificate for a Hornby R3308 2511 Silver King, I ask as I have the 3 other Silver A4's with their certificates but my R3308 did not come with one.

 

I understand this is a very niche question to ask but wanted to find out, I also ask as I know this website sells certificates for other A4's but they do not have the certificate for R3308.

 

https://themodeltrainshop.co.uk/?product_cat=&s=A4+Certificate&post_type=product

 

Many Thanks

[Clearwater]

Hi

why don’t you try contacting Hornby customer service?  They may have a spare they can send you!

[KVT]

Hmm that might be a good idea will try but unsure on if they would, thank you Clearwater

 

Can anyone else offer some help?

 

Many Thanks

Edited July 23, 2023 by KVT

[KVT]

10 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Hi

why don’t you try contacting Hornby customer service?  They may have a spare they can send you!

Hornby came back to me and said they are unable to replace lost certificates, I appreciate the idea Clearwater.

[adb968008]

Keep an eye on ebay, these things can show up.

 

i have a couple of certificates for locos ive sold, dismantled or renumbered long ago, never throw anything away, I would list them some day (not yours unfortunately), so someone else may do the same.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by adb968008

[KVT]

Thank you I have but generally I only see people listing locomotives with certificates, I am only after the certificate as I already own the locomotive, and when I have enquired with people about buying just the certificate they do not want to sell as it forms part of the model, which is understandable hence why I thought to ask if anyone knows anyone or a website that sells this certificate.

 

Many Thanks

[stewartingram]

Is it possible to borrow one and scan it? I've never seen one but I'm guessing that:

a0 For that loco, they are different to other locos.

b)  Each certificate is individually numbered.

These 2 points would need some editing, not difficult (especially the number, though what you would choose I have no idea).

 

 

[Dungrange]

11 hours ago, KVT said:

Thank you I have but generally I only see people listing locomotives with certificates, I am only after the certificate as I already own the locomotive, and when I have enquired with people about buying just the certificate they do not want to sell as it forms part of the model, which is understandable hence why I thought to ask if anyone knows anyone or a website that sells this certificate.

 

I think you're looking for a needle in a haystack.  This website (https://wrennmodelrailways.com/product/engine-outlet-store/l-n-e-r-locomotives-1/Bachmann-a4-pacific-2510-quick-silver-lner-black-model-31-962-78/) states that R3308 was a Limited Edition of 1,000 models.  That means 1,000 A4 models and 1,000 certificates were produced.  Most of the 1,000 certificates produced are probably in the hands of people who own one of the 1,000 A4 models produced.   There are obviously a few models without a certificate (ie you own one) and therefore there may well be a few people who have a certificate but no longer have the model (presumably the same number), but that might be a very small number (possibly a single digit number).   There won't be a website with certificates for all models in stock.  Presumably the site that you highlight has the certificates that they do from buying a job lot from a now deceased railway modeller.  Into their possession comes a number of certificates with no matching locomotive and they are therefore sold on without the locomotive, as someone may want them. Finding a certificate for R3308 will therefore just be luck.

 

The certificates matter to some people, so I understand why those you have contacted have not been willing to separate the model and the certificate.  I guess the question is how much is the model worth with the certificate and how much is the model worth without the certificate?  The difference is the value of the certificate and for most people looking to sell the model, they won't know how much less it is worth if they sell the certificate to you.  It may be that the only way for you to get a certificate is to buy a model with a certificate and then sell the model without the certificate.  Whatever loss you make on these two transactions is the price you pay for the certificate.

[KVT]

Fair enough generally I see about a £30 to £40 difference in price with a silver a4 without a certificate and without when looking on Ebay and other places, I paid far less than the going price for a Silver A4 but yeah thought it would be very hard to buy just the certificate on its own.

Edited July 24, 2023 by KVT

[Willie Whizz]

Forgive the thought, but if you obtain a “blank” certificate, or scan a real one and edit it, you still need to know (unless you already do but haven’t said so) the correct “Number X of 1,000”, or else you have a very high risk of duplicating the number of someone else’s genuine model and certificate - and that might be viewed by those collectors who regard authenticity as sacrosanct as … shall we say … ‘a bit iffy’, if not worse. 
 

I’m sure that’s not your intention, but If it came to a dispute with another modeller, who would referee?  Because one of you has, in effect, what might be by some considered a “fake” which might devalue the other’s model. 

[micklner]

1 minute ago, Willie Whizz said:

Forgive the thought, but if you obtain a “blank” certificate, or scan a real one and edit it, you still need to know (unless you already do but haven’t said so) the correct “Number X of 1,000”, or else you have a very high risk of duplicating the number of someone else’s genuine model and certificate - and that might be viewed by those collectors who regard authenticity as sacrosanct as … shall we say … ‘a bit iffy’, if not worse. 
 

I’m sure that’s not your intention, but If it came to a dispute with another modeller, who would referee?  Because one of you has, in effect, what might be by some considered a “fake” which might devalue the other’s model. 

Even more so if it was sold with a what could be construed a Forgery at some time in the future. Not worth the potential hassle .

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, micklner said:

Even more so if it was sold with a what could be construed a Forgery at some time in the future. Not worth the potential hassle .

 

Quite!

 

The certificate originally supplied with the loco is lost - end of. If another certificate is purchased / forged, it is NOT the original certificate.

 

The value of the certificate - if you care about such things - is that it is the ORIGINAL certificate supplied by the maker with the model in question.

 

If the replacement certificate is genuine, but from another model, it is still not the ORIGINAL certificate, and I would judge it morally, if not legally, wrong to sell the model as being complete with original certificate.

 

If a replacement certificate is forged, any sale would be fraudulent unless the origin of the certificate was declared - and so what would be the point?

 

...... and why was the OP able to purchase the model, sans certificate, at an exceptionally low price?!?

 

CJI.

Edited July 25, 2023 by cctransuk

[Jon Harbour]

Personally, I would accept that you aren't going to be able to get a certificate for that model. It's GONE...

 

I understand that this is a bit of a shame, as you have all four Silver A4 locomotives, but only three have the certificates. It impacts the value of the complete set. If having a set with certificates is that important to you (and I get the feeling it is, as you wouldn't have started this thread otherwise), I think the only option open to you is to buy another model of the A4 missing the certificate, this time ensuring it has the certificate before you complete the transaction.

 

Trying to 'bodge up' a certificate for the loco without one smacks of dodgyness and would probably lead any potential future buyer to question the validity of the other three.

[Darius43]

The least worst option is to look for and buy a model of that specific loco with its original certificate and sell the loco that you have that doesn’t have the certificate.   That way all the locos and certificates match.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[adb968008]

You could always sell the one without certifcate and buy another with it.

 

You will find the tender is worth a fortune.

why, because Hornby made a bunch of extra locos, without tenders,  in the event of damaged returns.

Later they sold them to AC models who sold them via ebay at c£50 for the loco without tender and no outer box.

So theres a bunch of people out there who will jump for it… iirc probably c50 in that state.

 

Then sell the chassis, as theres always a market for replacement chassis, and finally the body.

Even the box will be worth at least a tenner, to those with a loco body and no box.

For a bit of faff you’ll close the gap on price for a good one.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Quite!

 

The certificate originally supplied with the loco is lost - end of. If another certificate is purchased / forged, it is NOT the original certificate.

 

The value of the certificate - if you care about such things - is that it is the ORIGINAL certificate supplied by the maker with the model in question.

 

If the replacement certificate is genuine, but from another model, it is still not the ORIGINAL certificate, and I would judge it morally, if not legally, wrong to sell the model as being complete with original certificate.

 

If a replacement certificate is forged, any sale would be fraudulent unless the origin of the certificate was declared - and so what would be the point?

 

...... and why was the OP able to purchase the model, sans certificate, at an exceptionally low price?!?

 

CJI.

I think your being extremist there, lets get real…

 

each loco is identical off the production line.

The certificates are just printed paper in bulk.

someone sticks one piece of paper with 1 loco until the piles are exhausted.

there is no unique link between loco and paper.*

 

*(this did not use to be the case with Bachmann ltd editions, where a certificate number was matched to an etched number on the chassis 2+ decades ago).

so it will be completely undetectable to buy a genuine certificate and match it to a genuine model in a box without one.

This is no different to buying an empty box off ebay and matching it to the right catalog number/ loco for that box.
 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 24/07/2023 at 20:45, stewartingram said:

Is it possible to borrow one and scan it? I've never seen one but I'm guessing that:

a0 For that loco, they are different to other locos.

b)  Each certificate is individually numbered.

These 2 points would need some editing, not difficult (especially the number, though what you would choose I have no idea).

 

 

This would be forgery.

it will probably cost you more in time and effort than it rewards too.

easier to sell the loco and buy a good one.

 

Maybe Photocopying a genuine one, and highlighting it as a copy, but your still against copyright (not that I think anyone will care), but equally it wont change the value, so I wouldn't bother.

 

 

Tbh no limited edition railway item is ever worth its salt in the long term.

They all devalue eventually, without exception.

The main influencer is a new tooling, and the models being re-run on that new tooling.

collectors cash out and go for the new one, devaluing the old one.

The holy grail A4 was Bachmanns US editions of 60008 sold via Walthers in the US, in the early 1990’s they were selling for £600 in the mid 90’s (£1200 today).

However, reality bites, today being non-DCC ready, and rerun off Bachmann and Hornbys toolings, those old ones fetch circa £100, indeed many broke up for spares as the axles split.

 

Hornby limited editions are becoming a disreputed anyway.. The Great Gathering had the taps turned on twice, now thrice with Dublo, recent models of Captain Tom, 34027 and just now the Deltic have seen the limited edition certificate volume become nothing number than “take a queue number” ticket, we dont even know what will be the eventual number on Deltic.. its seemingly limited to as many as they can sell.

i’d take the model and run it, if for sentimentality you want the certificates, break up the other one and sell it in bits, the tender will surprise you. Then buy a good one. As for value, its a matter of time before we get a Dublo version of the “silvers” then the others will fall… Dapol has a fantastic A4 tooling to, its a matter of time before that resurfaces too.

Edited July 26, 2023 by adb968008

[KVT]

Wow this topic has had a lot of replies, to answer no I am not looking to forge, I think my only option is to buy one with a certificate and sell the one without, to answer your question cctransuk on how I obtained the locomotive so cheap is I know a seller on Ebay who sells all their Hornby or Bachmann models, and most are in new /mint condition, very cheaply in order to get rid of them quickly, he is genuine and has no intent to sell models cheaply because they have something wrong, their are deals out there you just need to know where to look.

 

Many Thanks