F class tank livery query

[alviseven]

I have been gradually building my way through the metropolitan steam locos stock mainly to get to achieve my goal of getting my LNER classes from A to Z complete but have branched out to making the 0-6-2T F class tank based on a much butchered dublo R1 body on an Hornby 0-6-0 chassis. Had great difficulty with the livery yesterday when I suddenly realised that the post 33 livery - I model 1937/8 - was not covered in any of the photographs I could find mainly from HC Casserley Metropolitan steam book. It seems that by late 1936 LT had managed to get to nearly all the steam stock and rebrand it but cannot find any images of the F type later than mid 36 - still branded MET or metropolitan. However did find an image of an E class lettered the way I have decided to brand my model. Anyone able to confirm then theory that I have taken before I varnish them in! I have not finished this model yet as the black sections still need to be done at least.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

There's an excellent photograph from 1947 here: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/photographs/item/1998-59716

 

I realise this isn't much help to you, looking at the mid-1930s. I am not sure when exactly locomotives were renumbered.

[Engineer]

I'm much more conversant with the electric side of the Metropolitan than with its steam so I'd definitely refer to the books by Casserley and Goudie as fairly authoritative.  I think, during the early 1930s transition after takeover of the Metropolitan Railway, some locomotives were marked MET. 

 

The well-known London TransporT style began to be used from the mid-1930s onwards.  As well as the books, I'd suggest the following picture collections may have some clues:

 

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/RALWAYS-EXCLUDED-FROM-THE-1923-GROUPING/LONDON-TRANSPORT-CONSTITUENT-COMPANIES/i-wk5mttV

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LT-railways/LT-railways-Metropolitan-steam/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/albums/72157622006380259

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p632979032

Edited July 31, 2023 by Engineer
Image removed - privacy request

[roythebus1]

My first attempt at a Met loco was converting a Triang M7 into the 0-4-4T E class. Later I produced a cast whitemetal model of the F class and still have a few in stock if you want a decent model of it. As a result I've got a few pictures as I bought a copy of all those in the LTE collection!

 

Have a look on the FB group Metroplitan Railway Past and Present, there's some on there.

 

I'm just building one of my F class kits using the SE Finecast etched chassis. They also produced a model of the F class.

[Arun Sharma]

There is an almost broadside photo of a clean L52 on page 57 of the 1963  Ian Allan LT 'spotters' book - also pics in "Workhorses of the London Underground".

The wheels and footsteps are also lined as are the cab sides - I don't know for certain about the cab front or the tank fronts but it doesn't look they were lined.

Dont forget to add the long cylindrical air tank that sits on the right hand tank top.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Arun Sharma
addnl info

[Fair Oak Junction]

[Jeremy Cumberland]

15 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

Dont forget to add the long cylindrical air tank that sits on the right hand tank top.

The Westinghouse pump and air cylinders were late additions. I am not sure how late, but post-War at any rate, so the OP's model won't have them. As far as I am aware, the pump was on the right, and cylinders were on top of both tanks.

[Arun Sharma]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The Westinghouse pump and air cylinders were late additions. I am not sure how late, but post-War at any rate, so the OP's model won't have them. As far as I am aware, the pump was on the right, and cylinders were on top of both tanks.

Thank you - I hadn't seen that Met centenary pic of L52 before. On the odd occasion I saw the engine passing Neasden it was always the RHS I saw.

[Jeff Smith]

You won't go far wrong to copy the E Class livery as produced by Rapido.  Note, it appears that London Transport is in gold on the ex-Met locos but yellow on the Panniers.

 

[roythebus1]

I'll have to look out my official LT photos of these. One shows it with MET on the side, the other is in full LT livery with air brake.

[Jeff Smith]

There are some really good color photos of all the LT steam loco types in London Underground Steam by Kevin McCormack from Ian Allan (ISBN 987 0 7110 3406 8, my copy published 2011)

Have just received my SEF Class F kit with two air tanks included.  Instructions say only L49 and L52 were airbrake fitted.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

L50 was air brake fitted as well: https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/ephemera/item/1998-109907

 

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, further viewing in my library indicates the following:-

 

A memo published in Red Panniers on pg 20 from 1955 indicates for L50 the reservoir (singular) was fitted five years previously but is now scrap due to condition.  It does not say whether it was replaced.  L50 was withdrawn in 1958.

 

In London Underground Steam by Kevin McCormack, are pictures of L49 (reservoir on left side) and L52 (reservoir on right side) just before withdrawal in 1957 and 1963 respectively.

[D826]

Re Air tanks - in case of interest. I have an H Casserley photo of my Dad driving L52 - it appears to have what looks suspiciously like two air tanks on both left and right hand side on both water tanks. (I.e. there are air tanks on both sides of boiler).

 

Best regards

 

Matt W

Edited December 29, 2023 by D826
Accuracy

[Jeff Smith]

Matt, useful to know.  My comment about L52 above was really just to say the photo was of the r/h side so only the one on the right visible - most evidence suggests there were two reservoirs fitted on L49 and L52, not sure about L50 though......

[D826]

Here's said photo - Dad loved driving steam locos, but absolutely rhapsodised about the Panniers. Said they'd pull anything. 

 

Very distinctive posture when driving,  my old Dad.  Some brilliant photos and reminiscences about him in "Red Panniers" where he's incorrectly referred to as Ray Wood(s).  Just a Wood singular us Woods.😉

Edited December 31, 2023 by D826
Background

[roythebus1]

Looking up the pagt to what I think is the LT photo of L52 without air tank, it has no air brake pipes either. Later photos show air tanks, the Westinghouse pump and air brake pipes. I must admit when I produce my own whitemetal kit in the late 1970s I provided the Westinghouse pump and one air tank as that what what we had phots of at the time. I seem to have mislaid a few of my official phot collection over the years.

 

Was Ray Wood a driver at Rickmansworth in 1973? I'm sure I remember the name from when I was a guard there.

[Jeff Smith]

Is your master now owned by SEF - I have just started assembling one!

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Jeff Smith
Add photo

[D826]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

Looking up the pagt to what I think is the LT photo of L52 without air tank, it has no air brake pipes either. Later photos show air tanks, the Westinghouse pump and air brake pipes. I must admit when I produce my own whitemetal kit in the late 1970s I provided the Westinghouse pump and one air tank as that what what we had phots of at the time. I seem to have mislaid a few of my official phot collection over the years.

 

Was Ray Wood a driver at Rickmansworth in 1973? I'm sure I remember the name from when I was a guard there.

He was at Neasden Roy - joined LT on demob from Army in 1947/48.  Steam shed foreman at Neasden Steam shed by late 60s according to Red Panniers.

 

Diagnosed as diabetic in 1975/76 - very ill for a couple of years - LT were very good to him.  Kept him on and he was a ticket collector at Ricky from his return to work in about 1978, till retirement in 1990.

 

He loathed being a ticket collector- but was a dyed in the wool railwayman.

 

Full of great tales about life and work on the railway.  He was a good man - good old Dad. 

 

Had access to very colourful vernacular language too.

 

Happy New Year to you sir - I've seen your posts and timeliness of railway work, often wondered if you knew Dad. I believe he was nicknamed 'Dinker'.  Other nicknames of Neasden Steam shed staff quite amusing.

[roythebus1]

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Is your master now owned by SEF - I have just started assembling one!

 

I sold my patterns to SEF quite a while back, it was after they'd introduced their kit. There's minor differences, my patterns had a keyhole slot under the boiler front to take a proposed Kemilway chassis, but Kemilway never got round to it so my kit never sold in vast amounts, maybe 100-150. I still have enough parts for another 20-25. My bodywork on the SEF etched chassis sits maybe 1mm high, I'm still making adjustments. I built one many years back on a Wills 0-6-0 chassis. The other difference is in the buffer beam lamp brackets, the SEF has square brackets, presumably fitted by the Met for destination boards as seen on your sample above. There's also about 2mm difference in overall length which could be down to shrinkage in the casting process. Mine used etched brass masters in places with very fine rivet detail. That was a new process when that was made in the late 1970s.

Edited December 31, 2023 by roythebus1

[roythebus1]

3 hours ago, D826 said:

He was at Neasden Roy - joined LT on demob from Army in 1947/48.  Steam shed foreman at Neasden Steam shed by late 60s according to Red Panniers.

 

Diagnosed as diabetic in 1975/76 - very ill for a couple of years - LT were very good to him.  Kept him on and he was a ticket collector at Ricky from his return to work in about 1978, till retirement in 1990.

 

He loathed being a ticket collector- but was a dyed in the wool railwayman.

 

Full of great tales about life and work on the railway.  He was a good man - good old Dad. 

 

Had access to very colourful vernacular language too.

 

Happy New Year to you sir - I've seen your posts and timeliness of railway work, often wondered if you knew Dad. I believe he was nicknamed 'Dinker'.  Other nicknames of Neasden Steam shed staff quite amusing.

He must have been a name I remember from the tickets at Ricky. A lot of the drivers there were ex loco men. 

[D826]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

He must have been a name I remember from the tickets at Ricky. A lot of the drivers there were ex loco men. 

Names I remember Dad quoting for Neasden locomen are (remember- different times) ;

The Captain

Blossom

Hazel

The Witch Doctor 

Wizard

Persil - aka ' neck' !

 

In all seriousness he loved the railway  and his overseas workmates and went to a shunters funeral in Brixton - early 70s - only white person there -  that was Dad - loyal.

Edited December 31, 2023 by D826

[roythebus1]

On 31/12/2023 at 22:43, D826 said:

Names I remember Dad quoting for Neasden locomen are (remember- different times) ;

The Captain

Blossom

Hazel

The Witch Doctor 

Wizard

Persil - aka ' neck' !

 

In all seriousness he loved the railway  and his overseas workmates and went to a shunters funeral in Brixton - early 70s - only white person there -  that was Dad - loyal.

If it's the same Blossom I'm still in touch with him. He was my regular motorman when I was guard at Ricky in 1973/74. He retired to Ireland and has 11 children and 32 grand-children. His real name is Bill Byrne. his father was on the brake block gang at Neasden, his brothers were also on the Met. blossom is now about 76 I think.

[D826]

23 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

If it's the same Blossom I'm still in touch with him. He was my regular motorman when I was guard at Ricky in 1973/74. He retired to Ireland and has 11 children and 32 grand-children. His real name is Bill Byrne. his father was on the brake block gang at Neasden, his brothers were also on the Met. blossom is now about 76 I think.

I spoke with my 89 year old Mum Roy.

 

I think it must be a different Blossom as the bloke my Dad worked with would be in his 90s.  (If Dad was alive he'd have been 99 this year).

 

Other names Dad worked with were Harry Varley, David Slattery (Peaches), Tom Power, who like Dad, moved to and lived in Aylesbury.

 

He took me as a 4 or 5 year old, about 1971, to Neasden depot to see the Rolls Royce Sentinels.  I still remember my nervousness stepping over rails at the depot and his warning to 'not step on those ones boy - they're juice rails' and to this day regret not pressing the starter button in the cab of one of the Sentinels.

 

Dad loved the railway and driving/firing.  Told me that good pway guards were very skilled.  

 

Gave me a very strong impression of the camaraderie and teamwork of the railway back in the day.

 

Love all these LT posts.

 

Best regards

 

Matt W

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

On 31/12/2023 at 15:57, roythebus1 said:

I sold my patterns to SEF quite a while back, it was after they'd introduced their kit. There's minor differences, my patterns had a keyhole slot under the boiler front to take a proposed Kemilway chassis, but Kemilway never got round to it so my kit never sold in vast amounts, maybe 100-150. I still have enough parts for another 20-25. My bodywork on the SEF etched chassis sits maybe 1mm high, I'm still making adjustments. I built one many years back on a Wills 0-6-0 chassis. The other difference is in the buffer beam lamp brackets, the SEF has square brackets, presumably fitted by the Met for destination boards as seen on your sample above. There's also about 2mm difference in overall length which could be down to shrinkage in the casting process. Mine used etched brass masters in places with very fine rivet detail. That was a new process when that was made in the late 1970s.

Apologies for hijacking this thread which was really about livery, I have now built the basic SEF F Class body and now looking for a motor/gb combination.  The axle locations really restrict the drive to the centre axle but there is limited space behind up to the front of the backhead.  I was intending a simple single stage gearbox and DS10 but it's too long - just wondered what you or anyone else have used?