Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[DY444]

On 14/03/2024 at 10:17, Michael Hodgson said:

So don't use St Pancras - couldn't they build an International Station at Waterloo?

 

Admittedly that would be a classic modern day railway move.  Abandon Waterloo in 2007, leave it unused for years, spend a fortune reworking it for Waterloo domestic services, then decide to use it for international again requiring another fortune to be spent to undo what you spent the previous fortune on.  Even if you think that's going be approved (which it isn't) then you've got another issue which is that only the few remaining 373s are in gauge for HS1 - Waterloo.  So that needs another fortune to fix.

 

There's no getting away from one inconvenient truth.  It's St.Pancras or nowhere and although there is no doubting its splendour as a building, operationally it is a disaster.  There are insufficient platforms for any of the service groups that use it.  It might be possible to add additional East Mids platforms to the west and/or Kent platforms to the east but I don't see any way of expanding the international platforms. 

 

The only thing I can think of is that the 2 unused outer platforms at Stratford become turn round servicing points.  Once all the punters are off an inbound at St. P you work the empties away to one of the two platforms at Stratford.  Cleaning, re-tanking, catering restock etc all take place there, then you work the empties back again to St. P for immediate boarding.  Doing that with a few trains across the day might free you up enough platform space to fit a few more services in. 

Edited March 17 by DY444

[Michael Hodgson]

 

 

Once upon a time it was St George for England, St Pancras for Scotland.  Now International high-speed passengers arrive in St Pancras and will have to catch the tube to Euston (maybe) if they want to go further north

[Siberian Snooper]

With the lack of space in central London, I think that with the connectivity that Stratford has these days, shift the whole lot out there to a new station with more than enough capacity to handle todays requirements and to expand to take care of future needs.

 

St Pancras can then be given over to domestic travel.

 

I  can't see that solution happening in my lifetime.

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

9 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

shift the whole lot out there to a new station

As someone who travels up from the southwest and faces the problem of having to connect to Eurostar across the obstacle course of central London, my initial reaction was "oh no, not even further to travel".  However, inspecting some timetables reveals that Waterloo to Stratford on the Jubilee takes about the same time as Waterloo to St Pancras - and it has the major benefit of not requiring a change of tube lines.

 

However, I still think that the real solution to connecting from the southwest to Eurostar @ St Pancras would be to lay on a train service from Clapham Junction to St Pancras. Stratford would also require a change of train to get to Kings Cross, St Pancras and Euston for onward journeys to the Midlands and the North.

 

Yours, Mike.

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

With the lack of space in central London, I think that with the connectivity that Stratford has these days, shift the whole lot out there to a new station with more than enough capacity to handle todays requirements and to expand to take care of future needs.

 

St Pancras can then be given over to domestic travel.

 

I  can't see that solution happening in my lifetime.

 

 

And where exactly in Stratford would you build this new Termini?

 

While at one time Stratford may have had lots of spare / underused land which could be employed, a certain thing called the 2012 Olympics and the extensive redeployment/ regelation it bought about means that there areas around the current station are heavily built up with residential tower blocks and of course the Elizabeth Park green space.

 

No you can forget ANY chance of repurposing Stratford as a Termini.

 

Which brings us back to making the Optimum use of St Pancras….

 

Now while there are undoubtedly improvements which can be made ranging from more staff, extra passenger handling infrastructure etc which would help the bottom line is unless there is a radical change in how governments chose to regulate cross channel traffic with respect to security* and immigration requirements then the international platforms will always be significantly constrained as to how many trains they can handle compared to domestic platforms which do not face restrictions on simultaneous arrivals and departures from either side of island platforms or mixing arriving and departing passengers (both of which are done every single day within the EU without the world falling in I might add!)
 

 

 

*Which has more to do with Willy waving about how ‘tough’ Governments look than a realistic assessment of threats - a terrorist setting off a bomb on a Ro-Ro passenger ferry would be just as catastrophic as someone doing the same on the channel tunnel - yet I don’t see all motor vehicles and their occupants requiring to pass through x-Ray scanners etc.

[Siberian Snooper]

46 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

*Which has more to do with Willy waving about how ‘tough’ Governments look than a realistic assessment of threats - a terrorist setting off a bomb on a Ro-Ro passenger ferry would be just as catastrophic as someone doing the same on the channel tunnel - yet I don’t see all motor vehicles and their occupants requiring to pass through x-Ray scanners etc.

 

Just as a matter of interest, what security measures do vehicles and passengers go through before embarking on the Shuttle?

 

 

[phil-b259]

3 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

Just as a matter of interest, what security measures do vehicles and passengers go through before embarking on the Shuttle?

 

 

 

IIRC nothing different from what vehicles have to do when passing through the port of Dover, which isn't much - just a quick visual scan by the passport person that the photos in the passports offed up match the identity of the occupants basically.

 

Obviously for freight they both Dover and Eurotunnels have x-ray scanners but these are more geared to looking for illegal migrants or, in the case of Eurotunnel other heat sources (which could lead to a repeat of the various fires that have occurred since the tunnel opened).

 

Certainly there is no requirement for people to vacate their vehicles and march through a security portal while their car gets x-rayed - which is what would happen if the measure demand 'essential' for Europstar were replicated for ALL users of the tunnel....

 

Not for the first time we see blatant double standards applied - rail passengers facing intense scrutiny despite the transit being between 4 well matched countries who routinely exchange information about illegal activities / threats and who all have good levels of policing etc, but road users face minimal checks (even though blowing up a car ferry would be just as devastating as blowing up a Eurostar)

Edited March 18 by phil-b259

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

And where exactly in Stratford would you build this new Termini?

 

On Greenhill Street/Alcester Road, so it woud be nice and handy for foreign tourists wanting to visit the Royal Shakespeare Theatre, his birthplace and Anne Hathaway's Cottage.  And it shouldn't be too difficult to provide connections into HS2 for anybody wanting to go to Euston.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Not for the first time we see blatant double standards applied - rail passengers facing intense scrutiny despite the transit being between 4 well matched countries who routinely exchange information about illegal activities / threats and who all have good levels of policing etc, but road users face minimal checks (even though blowing up a car ferry would be just as devastating as blowing up a Eurostar)

Finding someone to make a claim against is easier in a car, than a passenger on a train.

i wonder how much the carpark at Luton airport cost ?

[Siberian Snooper]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Finding someone to make a claim against is easier in a car, than a passenger on a train.

i wonder how much the carpark at Luton airport cost ?

 

Only if they survived!

 

[Foulounoux]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC nothing different from what vehicles have to do when passing through the port of Dover, which isn't much - just a quick visual scan by the passport person that the photos in the passports offed up match the identity of the occupants basically.

 

Obviously for freight they both Dover and Eurotunnels have x-ray scanners but these are more geared to looking for illegal migrants or, in the case of Eurotunnel other heat sources (which could lead to a repeat of the various fires that have occurred since the tunnel opened).

 

Certainly there is no requirement for people to vacate their vehicles and march through a security portal while their car gets x-rayed - which is what would happen if the measure demand 'essential' for Europstar were replicated for ALL users of the tunnel....

 

Not for the first time we see blatant double standards applied - rail passengers facing intense scrutiny despite the transit being between 4 well matched countries who routinely exchange information about illegal activities / threats and who all have good levels of policing etc, but road users face minimal checks (even though blowing up a car ferry would be just as devastating as blowing up a Eurostar)

 

 

Most security checks are intelligence led, so just because you haven't been submitted to additional checks don't assume they don't happen.  Years ago after an old boss decided we would stop at tobacco alley he was rather surprised to be pulled in for additional checks and it was clear that this wasnt random  and our shopping trip had been observed 

 

Frequently cars are routed after UK passport control and before French control for explosives checks 

And we have seen cars pulled in for more exhaustive checks 

 

There are also x-ray checks, with warning signs not to queue in the x-ray zone but frequently ignored 

 

Car and passenger details must be submitted in advance 

 

 

I'd also suggest that the navettes are designed to take into account any such incident   

 

And Eurotunnel have also made preparations for the impending new controls.

 

We have been users for 29 years and seen additional controls implemented over that time 

 

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Not for the first time we see blatant double standards applied - rail passengers facing intense scrutiny despite the transit being between 4 well matched countries who routinely exchange information about illegal activities / threats and who all have good levels of policing etc, but road users face minimal checks (even though blowing up a car ferry would be just as devastating as blowing up a Eurostar)

 

 

Double standards ?

 

We used Eurostar last year and we passed through security and French passport control very easily and quickly, just like any international airport with the exception that on Eurostar you can take bottles of liquid with you

 

The return journey was much the same in Paris other than both French and British passport controls

 

If anything we were treated better than we have been treated at airports.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Double standards ?

 

We used Eurostar last year and we passed through security and French passport control very easily and quickly, just like any international airport with the exception that on Eurostar you can take bottles of liquid with you

 

The return journey was much the same in Paris other than both French and British passport controls

 

If anything we were treated better than we have been treated at airports.

You miss the point.

 

If you were travelling through the port of Dover or on a Eurotunnel shuttle would you expect the contents of your car to be x-rayed and all persons get out and March through a scanner?

 

Eurostar is a train NOT a plane, stop treating it like one!

 

As such the security measures which apply to Eurostar (or any competitor) should totally match those in operation at Dover or Folkestone when they process motor vehicles because (1) the countries connected by both services are identical and (2)  and their occupants because a sane analysis of the threats to life due to terrorism (or indeed the risks of smuggling) will show there is no meaningful difference between the two (in many respects transporting motor vehicles provides even grater opportunities for smuggling).

 

Foulounoux has highlighted that checks at the likes of Dover / Folkestone are primarily intelligence led - not the lazy and systematic detailed examination of everybody and everything before boarding used by Eurostar - and that is the sort of approach which should have been adopted rather than this ‘strip everyone of everything metal and walk them through airport scanners procedures.

 

Comparisons with airports (with respect to security needs) are largely invalid - airports deal with flights from a huge number of countries whose risk levels vary widely - very different from a facility which only deals with travel to EU countries (Dover, Folkestone, St Pancras) and can, broadly speaking, assume a certain level of risk applies to all those who pass through the facility and taylor what they do to that narrow passenger base.

 

And I repeat a bomb going off on a ro-ro ferry could cause just as much loss of life as a bomb set off in the channel tunnel and a car stuffed with drugs will cause much more harm that a person carrying them in their suitcase will…..

Edited March 19 by phil-b259

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

You miss the point.

 

If you were travelling through the port of Dover or on a Eurotunnel shuttle would you expect the contents of your car to be x-rayed and all persons get out and March through a scanner?

 

Eurostar is a train NOT a plane, stop treating it like one!

 

As such the security measures which apply to Eurostar (or any competitor) should totally match those in operation at Dover or Folkestone when they process motor vehicles because (1) the countries connected by both services are identical and (2)  and their occupants because a sane analysis of the threats to life due to terrorism (or indeed the risks of smuggling) will show there is no meaningful difference between the two (in many respects transporting motor vehicles provides even grater opportunities for smuggling).

 

Foulounoux has highlighted that checks at the likes of Dover / Folkestone are primarily intelligence led - not the lazy and systematic detailed examination of everybody and everything before boarding used by Eurostar - and that is the sort of approach which should have been adopted rather than this ‘strip everyone of everything metal and walk them through airport scanners procedures.

 

Comparisons with airports (with respect to security needs) are largely invalid - airports deal with flights from a huge number of countries whose risk levels vary widely - very different from a facility which only deals with travel to EU countries (Dover, Folkestone, St Pancras) and can, broadly speaking, assume a certain level of risk applies to all those who pass through the facility and taylor what they do to that narrow passenger base.

 

And I repeat a bomb going off on a ro-ro ferry could cause just as much loss of life as a bomb set off in the channel tunnel and a car stuffed with drugs will cause much more harm that a person carrying them in their suitcase will…..

your forgetting customs and immigration.
Were out now.

 

its not just about driving your car over without scanning.

 

An illegal is unlikely to arrive in the UK driving a Mercedes registered in Devon with a 24 plate.

They are much more likely to grab a £39 seat, a stolen passport and some belongings on the 0927 from Brussels… and even if they did get past two passport lines, theres a last line of defence in London.

 

Similarly someone from Amsterdam is more likely to be carrying waccy baccy in a rucsac on the Amsterdam london than driving that Devon 24 plate car.

 

Finally Lord Lucan making his getaway has more chance taking Shergar to St Pancras, than a Eurotunnel with a 24 plate car in his name followed by ANPR all the way down the M2.

 

Undesirables are often foot passengers, which puts Eurostar in top spot, and the ferry second… self drive is very remote, but they might try a coach… and having done Eurotunnel, Eurostar, Foot passenger, Car ferry and Coach ferry passenger  Ive seen they do go on board in more detail on coach passengers than other modes, both sides of the channel… they basically sealed it, collected all passports, took them away and went through the passengers one by one… (that was a school trip and almost all were screaming teenagers from Surrey)… so hardly high risk.

 

 

Edited March 19 by adb968008

[Foulounoux]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

You miss the point.

 

If you were travelling through the port of Dover or on a Eurotunnel shuttle would you expect the contents of your car to be x-rayed and all persons get out and March through a scanner?

 

Eurostar is a train NOT a plane, stop treating it like one!

 

As such the security measures which apply to Eurostar (or any competitor) should totally match those in operation at Dover or Folkestone when they process motor vehicles because (1) the countries connected by both services are identical and (2)  and their occupants because a sane analysis of the threats to life due to terrorism (or indeed the risks of smuggling) will show there is no meaningful difference between the two (in many respects transporting motor vehicles provides even grater opportunities for smuggling).

 

Foulounoux has highlighted that checks at the likes of Dover / Folkestone are primarily intelligence led - not the lazy and systematic detailed examination of everybody and everything before boarding used by Eurostar - and that is the sort of approach which should have been adopted rather than this ‘strip everyone of everything metal and walk them through airport scanners procedures.

 

Comparisons with airports (with respect to security needs) are largely invalid - airports deal with flights from a huge number of countries whose risk levels vary widely - very different from a facility which only deals with travel to EU countries (Dover, Folkestone, St Pancras) and can, broadly speaking, assume a certain level of risk applies to all those who pass through the facility and taylor what they do to that narrow passenger base.

 

And I repeat a bomb going off on a ro-ro ferry could cause just as much loss of life as a bomb set off in the channel tunnel and a car stuffed with drugs will cause much more harm that a person carrying them in their suitcase will…..

Your  car at Eurotunnel may well have been x-rayed

  Those rather large boxes just before French passport controls  and the great big signs saying warning x rays don't stop in the marked area.....

[hayfield]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

You miss the point.

Comparisons with airports (with respect to security needs) are largely invalid - airports deal with flights from a huge number of countries whose risk levels vary widely - very different from a facility which only deals with travel to EU countries (Dover, Folkestone, St Pancras) and can, broadly speaking, assume a certain level of risk applies to all those who pass through the facility and taylor what they do to that narrow passenger base.

 

And I repeat a bomb going off on a ro-ro ferry could cause just as much loss of life as a bomb set off in the channel tunnel and a car stuffed with drugs will cause much more harm that a person carrying them in their suitcase will…..

 

Departures from the UK outside this country carry the same risk whether by passenger train or by air. I agree incoming flights do differ by country of origin.

 

As for the different methods between Le Shuttle or ferry I agree with abd968008 reply

[Foulounoux]

8 minutes ago, Foulounoux said:

Your  car at Eurotunnel may well have been x-rayed

  Those rather large boxes just before French passport controls  and the great big signs saying warning x rays don't stop in the marked area.....

Adding this for reference https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/travelling-with-us/safety-and-security/

[fulton]

On 18/03/2024 at 15:44, phil-b259 said:

 

IIRC nothing different from what vehicles have to do when passing through the port of Dover, which isn't much - just a quick visual scan by the passport person that the photos in the passports offed up match the identity of the occupants basically.

 

Obviously for freight they both Dover and Eurotunnels have x-ray scanners but these are more geared to looking for illegal migrants or, in the case of Eurotunnel other heat sources (which could lead to a repeat of the various fires that have occurred since the tunnel opened).

 

Certainly there is no requirement for people to vacate their vehicles and march through a security portal while their car gets x-rayed - which is what would happen if the measure demand 'essential' for Europstar were replicated for ALL users of the tunnel....

 

Not for the first time we see blatant double standards applied - rail passengers facing intense scrutiny despite the transit being between 4 well matched countries who routinely exchange information about illegal activities / threats and who all have good levels of policing etc, but road users face minimal checks (even though blowing up a car ferry would be just as devastating as blowing up a Eurostar)

Just to add, I travel with Eurotunnel every couple of months, sending this from Germany, did once have my car Xrayed, seemed a novelty to the Frence Police as well, my van sometimes gets pulled over looking for stowaways, I travel on an EU passport, so it just gets scanned, UK passports get stamped as well, but that will be changing sometime when all the tech for finger prints is in place.

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, fulton said:

Just to add, I travel with Eurotunnel every couple of months, sending this from Germany, did once have my car Xrayed, seemed a novelty to the Frence Police as well, my van sometimes gets pulled over looking for stowaways, I travel on an EU passport, so it just gets scanned, UK passports get stamped as well, but that will be changing sometime when all the tech for finger prints is in place.

 

So not scanned every single time (as happens to all Eurostar passengers and their baggage)

 

So still double standards when it comes to how the rules are applied to the railway versus road based travel*....

 

 

*Though adb968008 has made some interesting observations as to why this might be the case.

[Foulounoux]

23 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

So not scanned every single time (as happens to all Eurostar passengers and their baggage)

 

So still double standards when it comes to how the rules are applied to the railway versus road based travel*....

 

 

*Though adb968008 has made some interesting observations as to why this might be the case.

Phil you may say double standards 

I say appropriate risk analysis driven approaches 

 

Just in same way at airports different groups of passengers arriving from certain destination  get different treatment 

 

Maybe in some future universe with international trains from various European cities the same approach would apply ie Amsterdam trains get treated differently (behind the scenes ) to trains originsting from say Strasbourg based on what risks  they present.  Ie more overt drug detection measures for one of them 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 20/03/2024 at 17:46, Foulounoux said:

Phil you may say double standards 

I say appropriate risk analysis driven approaches 

 

Just in same way at airports different groups of passengers arriving from certain destination  get different treatment 

 

Maybe in some future universe with international trains from various European cities the same approach would apply ie Amsterdam trains get treated differently (behind the scenes ) to trains originsting from say Strasbourg based on what risks  they present.  Ie more overt drug detection measures for one of them 

 

 

Oh it definitely happens today.

 

try looking dishevelled in a black raincoat, trainers and tracksuit carrying some scruffy carrier bag on a train to Menton from Ventimiglia and see how far you get.

 

On the other end of the scale, trains east of Tarnow in Poland, expect to see a heavy armed forces presence, dont try many pictures there !.. frustrating as they are using SBB panoramic stock on these services currently…. krakow has becomd quite interesting in rolling stock, your set to see DB, OBB, MAV, CD, ZSR, SBB even DSB and SNCB stock of late, even better as pkp keeps its newer faster locos west of Krakow, so plenty of loco changes.

 

 

 

Edited March 21 by adb968008

[Neil]

On 16/03/2024 at 17:24, hayfield said:

 

There are no reasonably priced hotels near St Pancras, We have booked one of those mentioned and its coat us £180 for the night. .....

 

Late I know but I've just returned from a trip to Rotterdam by Eurostar; Travelodge Kings Cross £73.99 on the way out and Travelodge Kings Cross Royal Scot £69.99 on the return leg. I book ahead as far as possible and avoid Friday and Saturday nights as they're usually far more expensive.

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Late I know but I've just returned from a trip to Rotterdam by Eurostar; Travelodge Kings Cross £73.99 on the way out and Travelodge Kings Cross Royal Scot £69.99 on the return leg. I book ahead as far as possible and avoid Friday and Saturday nights as they're usually far more expensive.

 

Thanks but not in June, still its all part of the holiday and last year we found a super tapas restaurant around the corner