Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[Foulounoux]

In today's Charente Libre

Evolyn proposal for service from 2025

Apparently in the FT if you are looking for an English language version 

[darrel]

I don't suppose you would be kind enough to translate it for those of us who don't speak French? 

[The Stationmaster]

All a new entrant needs is a suitable trains (Eurostar - and DB to some extent - are the only people who have those) a suitable Safet Case to satisfy all teh various authorities involved; multi-lingual staff to comply with the language requirements of every railways infrastructure owner over whose lines the train will pass;  a set of Rules reflecting the requirements of those infrastructure owners and all relevant national legislation;   authority and able to be compliant with the transport security requirements of all countries involved as will of course being compliant with Channel Tunnel security requirements;   a pile of cash to create the necessary organisation to run and crew the trains as well as maintaining them.  Oh and track access plus no doubt station handling agreements to the heavily used termini at the London and pat ris ends of teh route both of which have s considerable problems poping with turnround dwell times and lack of platform capacity to achieve it.

 

Then having spent a considerable amount of money getting all of that in place which would take probably the best part of two years, or more, they can get their network access sorted and maybe even start e running trains.  It's no wonder DB gave up on the idea!

[woodenhead]

Seems an odd decision when Eurostar are finding it difficult to make it work currently due to the passport checks and had to cap ticket sales per train to be able to process all the passengers.

 

Where are they going to fit in seperate facilities to Eurostar at either end so that the two don't clash when it comes to border checks and therefore delaying each other.

[Fat Controller]

'Fumer la moquette' covers it, I suspect. One too many 'petite fines' after lunch.

[adb968008]

National Express ?

 

so that could mean Ebbsfleet with bus connections from the M25.

Paris Nord always seems to have the platforms occupied

 

where could it dump out in France that doesnt conflict with Eurostar  ? I can only think of Calais, unless they use that for customs formalities and then go elsewhere in Europe as a domestic operator. 
 

DBs bid I always though was a bit of a German carrot and stick ..  the timing of the DB threat coincided with the tender for new Eurostar stock, and the DB threat receded once Siemens won. Whilst both were using Velaro, the DB one just didnt seem to comply, yet being pretty much identical except number of carriages. DB even got compensation for the delays with a free Velaro. maybe It just feels a lot of cosy coincidence.

I see no room for more operators on Channel Tunnel rail link, SNCF will make it too hard for any competition that isnt French.

 

My guess is its a sabre rattle, to encourage Eurostar to up its game since its downward retreat.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by adb968008

[Foulounoux]

https://www.thelocal.fr/20230729/group-of-companies-planning-to-launch-eurostar-rival

 

An English version of the story

[woodenhead]

Well I've learnt today that the tunnel is owned and operated by a French organisation, I thought it was an Anglo-French consortium.

 

And horror, this new proposal for a service with trains leased by GetLink includes the company that was National Express - them who walked away in shame from running the ECML.  If they couldn't run a near monopoly on the ECML for express services, how are they going to compete with a company with decades of experience running cross border services via the Chunnel?

[black and decker boy]

56 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Well I've learnt today that the tunnel is owned and operated by a French organisation, I thought it was an Anglo-French consortium.

 

And horror, this new proposal for a service with trains leased by GetLink includes the company that was National Express - them who walked away in shame from running the ECML.  If they couldn't run a near monopoly on the ECML for express services, how are they going to compete with a company with decades of experience running cross border services via the Chunnel?

Running an open access operator is vastly different to a franchised TOC let on an open competitive tender basis with very strong hints from the customer (DfT) as to the size of premium it expected to receive. Owning groups offering backend loaded bids based on overly optimistic DfT sourced data and revenue growth predictions were never going to end well and NatEx was certainly not unique in that regard.

 

I think a Ouigo style no frills Duplex service would do well proving they find a location that can cope with the border controls - Stratford International (for London) perhaps?

[adb968008]

36 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

Running an open access operator is vastly different to a franchised TOC let on an open competitive tender basis with very strong hints from the customer (DfT) as to the size of premium it expected to receive. Owning groups offering backend loaded bids based on overly optimistic DfT sourced data and revenue growth predictions were never going to end well and NatEx was certainly not unique in that regard.

 

I think a Ouigo style no frills Duplex service would do well proving they find a location that can cope with the border controls - Stratford International (for London) perhaps?

Yes but where in France ? Gare du Nord only has a couple of platforms and is pretty much one in one out for Eurostar already.

 

if it were Calais, tip everyone out, process them and pile them back on, it would work but its not very convienient, trade off for price and it opens up domestic EU destinations ?

 

I cant see this taking off really.

But ai could imagine some UK pressure onto Eurostar with threats of competition to get them to up their game a bit, theve been in retreat since 2016.

[woodenhead]

45 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

 

 

I think a Ouigo style no frills Duplex service would do well proving they find a location that can cope with the border controls - Stratford International (for London) perhaps?

So basicallly a RyanAir approach, not central London to Central Paris?

 

Stratford International might have space set aside for border controls but it doesn't have them, it doesn't have access from the looks of things to the Temple Mills, not that Eurostar are likely to share a maintenance facility with a direct rival.  It's in the East End of London so away from the bright lights of Central London except by DLR or a walk to Stratford Mainline for the Elizabethan Line - I guess in that respect it meets the design of a budget service, you get near your destination and at least Stratford is well connected for onward travel into the centre.

 

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

But ai could imagine some UK pressure onto Eurostar with threats of competition to get them to up their game a bit, theve been in retreat since 2016.

Been in retreat since Brexit was voted for - less and less EU related business ever since.  Strange how Eurostar served the two main EU locations of Paris and Brussels from the very start, almost like London, Paris & Brussels were doing a lot of EU business.  Seems the number of people using the services has never lived up to expectations, the ferries have not gone and now with added border controls just perhaps when it could trump ferries Eurostar has had to cut capacity because it simply cannot process a whole trainload of people through border checks.

 

Getlink clearly want something where they get to utilise the tunnel more and maybe take a bigger share of the revenue so a second operator using their leased train assets sounds like a plan.  Perhaps they have their eye on a bigger prize down the line and want to help it along with some added competition in the meantime.

 

But I cannot help but think, do that many people still want to travel between London and Paris by train, do they prefer to take the car and use LeShuttle or the ferry and drive through the French countryside to their holiday destination?

[black and decker boy]

9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

So basicallly a RyanAir approach, not central London to Central Paris?

 

Stratford International might have space set aside for border controls but it doesn't have them, it doesn't have access from the looks of things to the Temple Mills, not that Eurostar are likely to share a maintenance facility with a direct rival.  It's in the East End of London so away from the bright lights of Central London except by DLR or a walk to Stratford Mainline for the Elizabethan Line - I guess in that respect it meets the design of a budget service, you get near your destination and at least Stratford is well connected for onward travel into the centre.

 

Been in retreat since Brexit was voted for - less and less EU related business ever since.  Strange how Eurostar served the two main EU locations of Paris and Brussels from the very start, almost like London, Paris & Brussels were doing a lot of EU business.  Seems the number of people using the services has never lived up to expectations, the ferries have not gone and now with added border controls just perhaps when it could trump ferries Eurostar has had to cut capacity because it simply cannot process a whole trainload of people through border checks.

 

Getlink clearly want something where they get to utilise the tunnel more and maybe take a bigger share of the revenue so a second operator using their leased train assets sounds like a plan.  Perhaps they have their eye on a bigger prize down the line and want to help it along with some added competition in the meantime.

 

But I cannot help but think, do that many people still want to travel between London and Paris by train, do they prefer to take the car and use LeShuttle or the ferry and drive through the French countryside to their holiday destination?

There appear to be 22 daily direct flights from London’s airports to Paris so that suggests plenty of potential travellers.

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

There appear to be 22 daily direct flights from London’s airports to Paris so that suggests plenty of potential travellers.

More flights than Eurostars..

Clearly Eurostar doesnt own this market, defying predictions and political dreams.

 

i suspect thats down to ticketing sales… Eurostar should consider becoming an airline and joining sabre etc… I suspect corporate travel agents just dont notice it.

 

Add to that connecting / multi-hop itinieries for tourists visiting Europe by airlines also make Eurostar lose out… joining an airline alliance would fix that.

Airlines themselves I think would support, afterall LHR-CDG doesnt make big revenues at £100-200 o&d  tickets, what they would prefer is long haul connections via their cities with £1500-5000 revenue feeds.. but if half the plane is cashing points connecting tourists between LHR and CDG its restricting the big money.

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008

[woodenhead]

12 minutes ago, black and decker boy said:

There appear to be 22 daily direct flights from London’s airports to Paris so that suggests plenty of potential travellers.

But It's likely cheaper by air, they have the border infrastructure and all the public transport infrastructure in place.

 

Just like with the Ferries, Eurostar did not see off flying to Paris.

 

What it might get is people from the east of London, Essex etc who wish to travel to Paris and now don't need to do the whole of the Elizabethan route to get to Heathrow.  Using LU it would have been an awful journey though, with the new line it's probably gotten a whole lot better.

 

Which is the fastest overall journey?

[darrel]

Many thanks for the translation much appreciated 

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

But It's likely cheaper by air, they have the border infrastructure and all the public transport infrastructure in place.

 

Just like with the Ferries, Eurostar did not see off flying to Paris.

 

What it might get is people from the east of London, Essex etc who wish to travel to Paris and now don't need to do the whole of the Elizabethan route to get to Heathrow.  Using LU it would have been an awful journey though, with the new line it's probably gotten a whole lot better.

 

Which is the fastest overall journey?

I’m in South London and regularly do Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam.

Its a score draw for me on getting to StP, LHR, Gatwick or Ebbsfleet.

I go with Eurostar because of my interest.

 

My work colleague in Reading is Little Miss BA, nothing more, nothing less than a T5 flight… if I mention Eurostar I get the “What ? You mean go by train !”, Retort.

The other week she flew to Newcastle… I didnt even think such a flight still existed.

 

There is a lot of that mindset in London… you mention Eurostar, they think SWR 450 at 7am…

 

Railways have a bad perception in London.. on my line due to strikes service is cut in half, and at weekends units have been reduced from 8 car to 4… yet yesterday I still had no issues getting a seat… The dft could look at this and let the unions continue indefinitely as its saving more than its losing.

 

A lot of locals now will simply take an Uber door to door in an hour and 10 mins or so, split the fare between them at c£5-10 each, rather then walk to the station, wait 20 mins, take 30 mins to London victoria, then another 20 mins to their destination… assuming its not canceled or late.

one of my neighbours ride shares his commute now using uber, its door to door, no fuss and only a few minutes difference, but infinitely more reliable and a guarenteed seat, pretty much same as rail fare on a ride share, no ulez, no station parking either.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by adb968008

[SM42]

With the right infrastructure I  place for passport control it should be a relatively quick process to get say 400 people onto a train. 

Just needs them to turn up earlier. 

 

Le Shuttle seems to be able to get you checked in, through passports and onto a train in about an hour and that's with several people in a car. 

 

Eurostar and indeed the government have had plenty of warning aboutadditional passport processing times, yet they seem to think that it will all be OK and need do nothing. 

 

Similarly coming back to the UK, there is no reason why passengers have to detain for passport and customs checks. 

 

This can be done on train in around 45 minutes ( if my trip to Belarus 5 years ago is anything to go by. )

 

It would still be quicker than a plane,  and do forget internal flights in France are banned. 

 

It could work with a bit of imagination, cash, planning and cooperation with the French on passport and customs ( the last bit is probably going to be hardest politically)

 

Andy

Edited July 30, 2023 by SM42

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

There appear to be 22 daily direct flights from London’s airports to Paris so that suggests plenty of potential travellers.

That's about four E*'s worth....

[The Stationmaster]

On 29/07/2023 at 23:00, black and decker boy said:

Running an open access operator is vastly different to a franchised TOC let on an open competitive tender basis with very strong hints from the customer (DfT) as to the size of premium it expected to receive. Owning groups offering backend loaded bids based on overly optimistic DfT sourced data and revenue growth predictions were never going to end well and NatEx was certainly not unique in that regard.

 

I think a Ouigo style no frills Duplex service would do well proving they find a location that can cope with the border controls - Stratford International (for London) perhaps?

Well Eurostar has managed well enough as an open access operator although with the SNCF involvement it was perhaps not quite so  much 'open access' in France as in Britain and the Tunnel.

 

According to the Telgraph this is a 'National Express' proposal and doesn't seem to involve Getlink as an operator although they're more than happy to have extra passenger trains running through runnel *for very obvious reasons).

 

But it isn't going to be eay - as i said above to run to either of the existing London and Paris termin as they don;t have the platform capacity so taht leaves Straford or Ebbsfleet over here and o somehwre else' in Paris.  Basically to getn the market they have got to get into the two cities somehow or other.

 

Yes flights still continue between London and Paris but much reduced compared with pre0Eurostar days and BA remained committed because of the passengers they get using Heathrow as a connectional hub for their long haul routes.

 

Will t happen?  Very early days and an awful long way to go with an awful lot to do plus they will find that if they want decent journey times they'll effectively have to fit into the Eurostar timetable pattern. (which is far from fully utilised of course).  So they might finish up going through the Tunnel 3 minutes behind a Eurostar in order to get a good path and to find a path on LGV Nord.   DB were scraed off as their plans developed and I have feeling they had a far better idea of what they were doing than some suddenly saying we want to run trans between London and Paris.

[5944]

21 hours ago, SM42 said:

With the right infrastructure I  place for passport control it should be a relatively quick process to get say 400 people onto a train. 

Just needs them to turn up earlier. 

 

Le Shuttle seems to be able to get you checked in, through passports and onto a train in about an hour and that's with several people in a car. 

 

Eurostar and indeed the government have had plenty of warning aboutadditional passport processing times, yet they seem to think that it will all be OK and need do nothing. 

 

Similarly coming back to the UK, there is no reason why passengers have to detain for passport and customs checks. 

 

This can be done on train in around 45 minutes ( if my trip to Belarus 5 years ago is anything to go by. )

 

It would still be quicker than a plane,  and do forget internal flights in France are banned. 

 

It could work with a bit of imagination, cash, planning and cooperation with the French on passport and customs ( the last bit is probably going to be hardest politically)

 

Andy

Eurotunnel has the advantage of a lot of space to park up a lot of vehicles, plus they're all going to one destination so it's easy to just fill up one train after another. Eurostar doesn't have that luxury at St Pancras, and passport control can only cope with 1500 passengers per hour rather than 2200 per hour before Brexit. Hence why they're down to two trains an hour rather than three, and missing out intermediate stations and reduced number of destinations. Another operator isn't going to be able to use St Pancras, so unless they pay a lot of money for Border Force at Stratford or Ebbsfleet then I can't see it happening.

[JeffP]

Regarding passport control, we regularly use the chunnel with our car, as my wife doesn't need to get out of the car into her wheelchair and vice-versa.

We can't say we've noticed passport checks taking longer since Brexit, but we have observed the following:

     It sometimes seems to take an age to scan passport chips. Are they still using ZX or Commodore computers?

    Sometimes, even in holiday season, only two cubicles will be manned out of nine. Why?

     Why can one passport officer process nine full cars ehile another processes four?

      Pre-Brexit we used to sail into Hull. The Rotterdam ferry arrived at 0800, and passport staff processed the entire ship, before driving across the port to process those arriving from Zeebrugge. This often led to us driving off the ship, and sitting on the dock for around an hour before our queue moved.

 

So I reckon UK passport control needs to up it's game.

The

[adb968008]

On crowds at St Pancras.

 

Surely closing Ebbsfleet and concentrating on St Pancras is simply compounding the problem, by forcing everyone to St Pancras ?

if Ebbsfleet was open, some pressure on St Pancras would be reduced ?

 

Why was Ebbsfleet closed ?

lack of passengers or too expensive ?

 

 

[brushman47544]

30 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

On crowds at St Pancras.

 

Surely closing Ebbsfleet and concentrating on St Pancras is simply compounding the problem, by forcing everyone to St Pancras ?

if Ebbsfleet was open, some pressure on St Pancras would be reduced ?

 

Why was Ebbsfleet closed ?

lack of passengers or too expensive ?

 

 

Wasn’t the argument that having passport checks at Ebbsfleet meant fewer staff to carry out checks at St Pancras? Staff at Ebbsfleet would also be underemployed due to far fewer trains compared to them working at St Pancras. I don’t remember there ever being a suggestion of employing more staff…

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Wasn’t the argument that having passport checks at Ebbsfleet meant fewer staff to carry out checks at St Pancras? Staff at Ebbsfleet would also be underemployed due to far fewer trains compared to them working at St Pancras. I don’t remember there ever being a suggestion of employing more staff…

I was wondering the staff thing.

 

Given everything exists in infrastructure, and its both open and ongoing maintained already, (SE HS) what does it need ?

 

20 people, even at £500 a head, £10k per day in costs thats about the same revenue as 50 passengers a day, and i’m sure it can generate more business than that.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by adb968008

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

On crowds at St Pancras.

 

Surely closing Ebbsfleet and concentrating on St Pancras is simply compounding the problem, by forcing everyone to St Pancras ?

if Ebbsfleet was open, some pressure on St Pancras would be reduced ?

 

Why was Ebbsfleet closed ?

lack of passengers or too expensive ?

 

 

 

I don't know the reason but I found Ebbsfleet very convenient when I was living in Dorset. Far better than having to cross Central London with bulky luggage (trade samples).