Proposed new competitor for Eurostar

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/12/2023 at 22:46, roythebus1 said:

Yes, I heard on BBC Radio Kent that the wires had "fallen down onto" an Amsterdam-bound Eurostar service. The train was delayed over 5 hours before being towed back to St.Pancras.

 

I don't know if it was the train that brought the wires down, bad weather ditto, or "Bladerunner" from the anti-ULEZ group in London had taken umbrage to cameras in the area. It seems to have had repurcussions for the rest of the day..

 

The other thing these "expansionists" are forgetting is drivers' route knowledge, and how long one can be expected to be wide awake driving at TGV speeds. I'd suggest about 4 and a half hours would be the maximum. Presumably the current fleet of train have the facility to change drivers on the move so that wouldn't prove too difficult. I gather lodging in Amsterdam is preferred by the train crew to lodging in Brussels.

The hotel which Eurostar used to usse for lodging in Brussel wasn't bad but walking to it from Midi turned into a fairly serious risk of death (from stabbing) event after about 5- 6 years and crews refused to use it.   It was asos a bit noisy when the fair was on in the square outside although that was only once a year.  A move was then made to somewhere up near Central which cosr teh company a bit more but was better situated frim the viewpoint of popping out for a meal in the evening.

 

SNCF used the same hotel as Eurostar UK for lodging in Bruxelles for their Eurostar turns but some of it was farcical when you saw the wives of Lille based crew turn up to take hubby home for the night and then bring him back the next morning.  i suspect what they were allowed for meal expenses  more than covered the cost of the petrol.  One Eurostar UK Train Manger never used the official lodging but always stayed overnight with her aunt who lived in a far nicer part of the city; she was always the first one to book on the next morning.

[roythebus1]

It sounds a bit better than the "hotel" we had to use in Newcastle in the 1970s days of Lodging1 "Handa's Palace" or West Parade hotel. One of the beds had a pile of books under one corner as the leg was missing!

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/12/2023 at 12:43, roythebus1 said:

It sounds a bit better than the "hotel" we had to use in Newcastle in the 1970s days of Lodging1 "Handa's Palace" or West Parade hotel. One of the beds had a pile of books under one corner as the leg was missing!

Our lot were very fussy indeed - a lot of that was down to the Train Managers and not just the females of that species.  For some unaccountable reason they seemed to stay in higher priced hotels when on courses in Lille than did senior managers and Directors and in Paris some of them announced dissatisfaction with the official SNCF lodging accommodation (owned and managed by SNCF) and demanded to be accommodated in a hotel which exceeded the accommodation  allowance  (3 star hotel) for senior managers and Directors.

 

The Brussels hotel wasn't bad and I even used when the wife and children and I went to Brussel for a few days but the route to it became too dangerous so it had to go. Generally we went for 3 star hotels for lodging purposes and then negotiated a favourable rate with them for long term business.  Oddly the management all seemed to have different favourites when it came to staying overnight in Paris and i always used the one which had been traditionally used for many years by SR folk going over to discuss boat train and ferry timetables; strange to relate it was near Pigalle  (but well sited for access to variety of reasonably priced restaurants for evening meals in Montmartre).

[Siberian Snooper]

Also, well located for extracurricular activities, as well. The last time I walked down the Pigalle, I was accosted by a young lady, wanting me to go with her, I told her that I charged 100 Euros an hour, she soon left me alone.

 

 

[Foulounoux]

Back to the original purpose of the thread 

 

https://www-kentonline-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/amp/the-67m-scheme-to-bust-kents-holiday-season-border-gridloc-298635/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17027216922764&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kentonline.co.uk%2Ffolkestone%2Fnews%2Fthe-67m-scheme-to-bust-kents-holiday-season-border-gridloc-298635%2F

 

 

Most of the article is about how eurotunnel will mitigate the impact of the new border controls by having processes in series.  But towards the end is the statement that Eurotunnel are looking to expand the range of operators using the tunnel 

 

[The Stationmaster]

18 minutes ago, Foulounoux said:

Back to the original purpose of the thread 

 

https://www-kentonline-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/amp/the-67m-scheme-to-bust-kents-holiday-season-border-gridloc-298635/?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQGsAEggAID#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17027216922764&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kentonline.co.uk%2Ffolkestone%2Fnews%2Fthe-67m-scheme-to-bust-kents-holiday-season-border-gridloc-298635%2F

 

 

Most of the article is about how eurotunnel will mitigate the impact of the new border controls by having processes in series.  But towards the end is the statement that Eurotunnel are looking to expand the range of operators using the tunnel 

 

The last bit is a repeat of what we've heard before and the expenditure to improve capacity is nothing new - just more expensive and presumably will now be a ETCS based system?  (The signalling upgrade to increase capacity  was being talked about back in the mid 1990s.  And Eurotunnel encouraging a wider range of through train destinations isn't new either.    I looked at one proposal for them back in 1997, although Amsterdam as a Eurostar destination has at leasts subsequently become a reality; it was never even a possibility using a Class 373 train because of various technical issues

[Foulounoux]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/getlink_doublement-des-destinations-directes-via-ugcPost-7141396012505432064-S3aV?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android

 

Getlink post on linkedin

 

[ess1uk]

Right now road and air travel are the main competitors 

[hayfield]

Right now there is so much less flexibility when something goes wrong than in the old days, was not Euston crippled for hours a week or so ago when a train broke down outside Watford ? It closed all 4 running lines for hours. In the old days a second train would have been sent out to recover the first !!!

 

Here we have flooded tunnel under the Thames, firstly why are there main water pipes in the tunnel ? secondly why can't we turn round trains in Ebbsfleet and or Ashford when episodes like this happen.

 

One would have thought that plans would have been put in place to cover most eventualities !!  Millions spent on signaling to use these stations, all totally wasted and no one gets punished or reprimanded for a lackluster response.

 

This time its not the Governments fault, but those who run the system

 

We certainly need more than one competitor to Eurostar  

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

... firstly why are there main water pipes in the tunnel ...

Fire suppression p'raps ?

[nightstar.train]

5 hours ago, hayfield said:

Here we have flooded tunnel under the Thames, firstly why are there main water pipes in the tunnel ?

Why not? If you’re digging two huge tunnels under the Thames at enormous expense why not make a little back by renting them to utility companies? I expect they’ve got trunk lines for the phone network going through them as well. The Eurotunnel itself carries a high voltage cable that connects us to France and allows us to import/export electricity. Obviously the water pipes are not expected to fail and flood the tunnels. Maybe they’ve not been maintained correctly, or have corroded faster than expected. Undoubtedly there will be lessons learned once everything is fixed up, and lawyers will get involved to argue over who owes compensation to who. 

[Fat Controller]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

Right now there is so much less flexibility when something goes wrong than in the old days, was not Euston crippled for hours a week or so ago when a train broke down outside Watford ? It closed all 4 running lines for hours. In the old days a second train would have been sent out to recover the first !!!

 

Here we have flooded tunnel under the Thames, firstly why are there main water pipes in the tunnel ? secondly why can't we turn round trains in Ebbsfleet and or Ashford when episodes like this happen.

 

One would have thought that plans would have been put in place to cover most eventualities !!  Millions spent on signaling to use these stations, all totally wasted and no one gets punished or reprimanded for a lackluster response.

 

This time its not the Governments fault, but those who run the system

 

We certainly need more than one competitor to Eurostar  

That pipe's a bit small for a mains water pipe; it looks more like pipework I've seen elsewhere for fire-figting purposes. I'm curious to know how it became semi-detached. 

[hayfield]

12 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Fire suppression p'raps ?

 

8 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

That pipe's a bit small for a mains water pipe; it looks more like pipework I've seen elsewhere for fire-figting purposes. I'm curious to know how it became semi-detached. 

 

 

OK but water and electricity usually does not mix, though it seems to have been a fire suppressant. If so how come it took so long to realize this and simply turn off the tap ? 

 

I can accept accidents do happen but why did it take so long to simply turn off the tap ? even worse there was no backup up plan to keep some sort of service going ? We have the infrastructure ? why not use it ?

[ess1uk]

Towards a relaunch of a London-Cologne train? | RailTech.com

https://www.railtech.com/all/2024/01/04/towards-a-relaunch-of-a-london-cologne-train/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter week 2024-01

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, ess1uk said:

Towards a relaunch of a London-Cologne train? | RailTech.com

https://www.railtech.com/all/2024/01/04/towards-a-relaunch-of-a-london-cologne-train/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter week 2024-01

 

20 trains each way an hour…., 1 every 3 minutes.

 

Quote

Eurotunnel aims to further accelerate low-carbon mobility between the UK and continental Europe by doubling the number of new direct high-speed rail services from London via the Channel Tunnel over the next ten years. The plan is to increase this to 1,000 trains a day, and not just by increasing the number of road shuttles.

wow.. that would make it a very busy line… imagine the chaos if one broke down…

 

Question is who is going to ride on them ?, wheres the demand coming from ?

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

20 trains each way an hour…., 1 every 3 minutes.

 

wow.. that would make it a very busy line… imagine the chaos if one broke down…

 

Question is who is going to ride on them ?, wheres the demand coming from ?

Interesting numbers.  1,000 per day =500 each way.  Evenly sopread across teh 24 hours that equals a decimal over 20 oer hour.  tunnel capacity ws originally planned on 20 standard paths per hour with all tunnel intervals in operation (so fu;;  double line throughout.  However at night there used to be a planned programme of closing 'interval (a single tunnel section between crossovers is an interval) for maintenance which considerably reduces hourly capacity.

 

So to increase capacity they would need to move to full ETCS moving block working but that won;'t help much if an interval is closed for mainrnemce.

 

So I suspect they are talking about some typically French 'headline' highly theoretical total numbers.  But not only - as you asked - is where the passenger demand going to come from but where are the trains going to run to/from in the UK?  Waterloo - if it were to be made available again - could handle 4 arrivals and 4 departures per hour and squeeze in the odd additional departure in  part of the peak (assuming there's a depot to hold the trains etc) so that's 96 departures evenly spread over 24 hours..  St Pancras can't even consistently match that over the course of an operating day so it could probably manage 80-85  (again over 24 hours).    So 'national railways', being generous about St Pancras and using Waterloo, could manage something like 185 departures over 24 hours. Taking into account the number of shuttles  you could run without domesticating Eurostar timings that is 14 per hour (6 paths to Eurostar for four trains per hour) that comes to 336 per 24 hours.

 

So you can reach the 500 each way if you have two termini in 'London' and never do any maintenance work in the Tunnel - but there'll be an awful lot of people travelling, or a lot of empty trains, at night.  As I said, I think we're talking about some headline very theoretical numbers.

[nightstar.train]

Presumably they’re hoping to revitalise Chunnel freight to fill some of those 1000 paths. Maybe 100 freight each way each day instead of using Waterloo. That would be good. There are hardly any freight trains through the Chunnel now. 

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

20 trains each way an hour…., 1 every 3 minutes.

 

wow.. that would make it a very busy line… imagine the chaos if one broke down…

 

Question is who is going to ride on them ?, wheres the demand coming from ?

 

 

As said the total number might be a bit of pie in the sky, but certainly I can see people wanting services to Germany and beyond, The Spanish seem to be very interested and with the new high speed line being built to Turin will open up a direct route to Turin/Milan/Rome. Non/Limited stop train services to various European destinations will appeal to many travelers, especially those driven by eco matters, those who do not like flying or those who just enjoy train travel. Not everyone is either is interested in the fastest of cheapest routes/methods. I see a new age of train travel, Perhaps a new age of 1st class travel will emerge ? 

[adb968008]

31 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

As said the total number might be a bit of pie in the sky, but certainly I can see people wanting services to Germany and beyond, The Spanish seem to be very interested and with the new high speed line being built to Turin will open up a direct route to Turin/Milan/Rome. Non/Limited stop train services to various European destinations will appeal to many travelers, especially those driven by eco matters, those who do not like flying or those who just enjoy train travel. Not everyone is either is interested in the fastest of cheapest routes/methods. I see a new age of train travel, Perhaps a new age of 1st class travel will emerge ? 

ive done Eurostar to Cote D’Azur by connecting with a TGV several times, its a fantastic way to spend 7 hours, especially as you encounter Avignon city, and after Marseilles along the coast ( at a sedentary speed), the plane beats this by a cool 3 hours but its a great journey.

 

ive also done Eurostar to Frankfurt and Berlin before now for work, using the Brussels (Koln) connection.

 

But I suspect i’m in the minority, when I took 5 colleagues on a business trip to Brussels and Amsterdam, all they did was look at their watches and wish they got off at Schiphol on the way back for the next 3 hours… whilst the time was here nor there, the fact they were bored to their seats didnt help..with a plane the time is broken down by the constant shuffling about.

 

Long distance rail will need long distance entertainment, especially when Le Wifi says non… that doesnt just mean copying airline entertainment… its a train, take advantage… set up a decent bar & decent food… they are on expenses afterall and its more efficient to eat on board whilst moving… its a different proposition to domestic, because your onboard for hours, not short hops as in the UK, sncf / db do this quite well, as does Eastern Europes longer journeys… Eurostar needs to migrate beyond the microwaved cheese and ham sandwich, made yesterday.

 

Edited January 6 by adb968008

[adb968008]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting numbers.  1,000 per day =500 each way.  Evenly sopread across teh 24 hours that equals a decimal over 20 oer hour.  tunnel capacity ws originally planned on 20 standard paths per hour with all tunnel intervals in operation (so fu;;  double line throughout.  However at night there used to be a planned programme of closing 'interval (a single tunnel section between crossovers is an interval) for maintenance which considerably reduces hourly capacity.

 

So to increase capacity they would need to move to full ETCS moving block working but that won;'t help much if an interval is closed for mainrnemce.

 

So I suspect they are talking about some typically French 'headline' highly theoretical total numbers.  But not only - as you asked - is where the passenger demand going to come from but where are the trains going to run to/from in the UK?  Waterloo - if it were to be made available again - could handle 4 arrivals and 4 departures per hour and squeeze in the odd additional departure in  part of the peak (assuming there's a depot to hold the trains etc) so that's 96 departures evenly spread over 24 hours..  St Pancras can't even consistently match that over the course of an operating day so it could probably manage 80-85  (again over 24 hours).    So 'national railways', being generous about St Pancras and using Waterloo, could manage something like 185 departures over 24 hours. Taking into account the number of shuttles  you could run without domesticating Eurostar timings that is 14 per hour (6 paths to Eurostar for four trains per hour) that comes to 336 per 24 hours.

 

So you can reach the 500 each way if you have two termini in 'London' and never do any maintenance work in the Tunnel - but there'll be an awful lot of people travelling, or a lot of empty trains, at night.  As I said, I think we're talking about some headline very theoretical numbers.

I cant imagine Waterloo ever coming back.

 

I suspect the rise of Stratford Intl and Ebbsfleet.

 

Cynically, once this whole drama of a half dozen operators throwing their hats into the ring reaches the wallet stage, all that will happen is they contenders withdraw and Eurostar agrees to lob in 2 or 3 extra trains a day that now use these stations… there is no competition on HS1 the barriers are too high and the strength of incumbent too good… it’ll just end in a gentleman’s agreement between the established parties.

Edited January 6 by adb968008

[hayfield]

17 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

ive done Eurostar to Cote D’Azur by connecting with a TGV several times, its a fantastic way to spend 7 hours, especially as you encounter Avignon city, and after Marseilles along the coast ( at a sedentary speed), the plane beats this by a cool 3 hours but its a great journey.

 

ive also done Eurostar to Frankfurt and Berlin before now for work, using the Brussels (Koln) connection.

 

But I suspect i’m in the minority, when I took 5 colleagues on a business trip to Brussels and Amsterdam, all they did was look at their watches and wish they got off at Schiphol on the way back for the next 3 hours… whilst the time was here nor there, the fact they were bored to their seats didnt help..with a plane the time is broken down by the constant shuffling about.

 

Long distance rail will need long distance entertainment, especially when Le Wifi says non… that doesnt just mean copying airline entertainment… its a train, take advantage… set up a decent bar & decent food… they are on expenses afterall and its more efficient to eat on board whilst moving… its a different proposition to domestic, because your onboard for hours, not short hops as in the UK, sncf / db do this quite well, as does Eastern Europes longer journeys… Eurostar needs to migrate beyond the microwaved cheese and ham sandwich, made yesterday.

 

 

 

I have only gone on long journeys via Gard du Nord, which entails a secondary trip by coach to Gard du Lyon, I would love to be able to change platforms on to the TGV going south or get off earlier to catch a south bound service. On some of my trips we have had to change trains, which simply means waiting for the appropriate service.

 

It would really be a seed change if 1 in 6 would swap a plane journey for a train, even 1 in 10 would be a massive amount of passengers.

 

As for entertainment I have found even the latest Eurostar trains to be lacking but the Modern TGV and Italian services to be very good as far as refreshments and wifi. One of my friends liked the Italian wine so much he brought several bottles to enjoy whilst on holiday

 

I do agree with your summary of Eurostar food, better take away food at the stations may be an option (M&S is very good at St Pancras ) But when there is a need it will be fed and if alternative services are available then they will be forced to up their game  

[The Stationmaster]

Of any of the current contenders I suspect that something additional to Holland -  but only if fares are low enough - or Switzerland are the only ones with any real chance.  It will take a long while to get the British used to theh idea of long duration train journeys and even Switzerland is pushing things a bit

 

Of all pf the ideas I think the SBB one, possibly with DB support, is the most likely to come to fruition.  DB and SBB have long been keen on the idea of a London - Brussel- Köln - Rhine Valley - Switzerland integrated service via connecting ytrains and though trains could become more attractive with international open access.  

 

SNCF might not be too keen ona Zurich - London competitor with their TGV/Eurostar 'sort of route' as a through train would be much more attractive.  But I don't know if the market is there.

 

However SBB still have a mountain to climb the easiest part probably being Tunnel track access and access over SBB/DB/SNCB  and even  CTRL, aka HS1.   But a biig problem at St Pancras and a potential major problem meeting the security requirements if the trains convey non-Tunnel passengers east/south of Brussel when heading towards England.  There is already a train on the market that satisfies Tunnel operational and safety requirements and the additional multi-voltage/pantograph requirements to handle DB and SBB electrification are know quantities for designers and engineers.   But the really big problem is, and will remain, capacity at St Pancras and probably overnight deopt capacity for trains at the 'London' end.

 

Stratford is a fairly good place for access to the service although I tend to be wary about its capabilities as a terminus - a role it was not designed for and in consequence lacks the necessary facilities to turn round trains efficiently. 

 

 

[phil-b259]

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/st-pancrass-station-planning-for-more-international-passengers-70852/?fbclid=IwAR10umYmZp5LmrC_cmlBC5G7XVTBmRJO-o1LUjJUa9LsuTVtdoVE9RcZfX4_aem_AYNDH2Vv6EUnECcLd8V022p9NyoWI7j7qOVd7zZ8ag74QXjvNaJPu1xpG74jw13HN48
 

It will be interesting to see what the bidders for this come up with…..

[ruggedpeak]

A petition has been started here in Switzerland for a direct Geneva to London service if anyone wants to sign. I have, although how rail will compete with the £30 air fares I pay at this time of year for the same trip I am not sure!

 

https://chng.it/b7vQvkR65n

 

 

[hayfield]

22 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

A petition has been started here in Switzerland for a direct Geneva to London service if anyone wants to sign. I have, although how rail will compete with the £30 air fares I pay at this time of year for the same trip I am not sure!

 

https://chng.it/b7vQvkR65n

 

 

 

Re the low cost airfares, I believe its down to subsidies given by the local governments to promote tourism. lobby your local politicians to equally support rail travel