Pacers on preserved lines

[adb968008]

On 24/08/2023 at 17:59, phil-b259 said:

 

Part of the problem may be the KWVRs reputation.

 

Given it was a early starter in Preservation terms and thus has mainly been steam operated for around 4 decades many people will 'expect' it to be fielding steam locos and not recently retired pacers.

 

in the early days the KWVR was the epitomy of fun… there was precious serious about its operations, anything that rolled was used.

The line being reopened and providing a service was the only requirement, the what and how came second.

 

dont forget the KWVR was arguably the first line to use DMUs… not one, but two W&M railbuses were straight exBR only 8 years old, to the line in 1966, 2 years before the KWVR reopened… so hardly a “preservation” thing..

it was baked into their reopening plans from the outset.

 

They were state of the art new… imagine a preserved line buying an 8 year old TPE Mk5a set today, or a Thameslink 700 ?

 

 

On 24/08/2023 at 17:59, phil-b259 said:

 

The East Lancs may be a bit younger but once again they are known for having a large number of steam locos so again visitor perceptions may well expect steam haulage (or 1960s diesels) and not a Pacer.

 

The ELR was diesel from the outset, providing a home to D1041, D832 (1980),  24054 formerly ADB968008 (sound familiar), 40145 (1984) and D7076 (1985) long before any working mainline steam arrived. They also unsuccessfully chased others such as D1048, D818 and D7096, but also provided an early home to D8233 before the line reopened in 1987… indeed the first “mainline steam” loco was a humble 30072 in December 1988, hired for santa specials, followed by a Jinty 7298 in 1989… the first tender engines was Big Jim from Keighley, also a winter hire.

 

 

7828 Odney Manor and 76079 followed and were the first to make a home there in 1990.

 

it wasnt know for mainline steam until after the disasterous “25 year end of BR Steam event” in 1993 which nearly killed the line… as most mainline steamers refused to go by road at that time.

Its record on Barry overhauls was poor.. 34027 left to the SVR in 1986 part restored, a year before the ELR reopened, and 45337 was a decade after the line opened and left the ELR, 80097 was nearly 4 decades later… 73156, 92207 both left, 46428 is ongoing.

 

The ELR only became a “steam” line in the enthusiast sense once Heywood reopened, and the mainliners were attracted… before that a J94, an MSC Tank or an RSH 0-6-0T was a near guaranteed appearance every weekend.

 

(Note the concrete bases used for semaphore signals on the ramp).

 

On 24/08/2023 at 17:59, phil-b259 said:

 

By contrast somewhere like the Mid Norfolk railway which only got going after rail privatisation and as such doesn't have a resident steam fleet is unlikely to cause the same level of 'expectation' in its visitors - and as such people may well be more inclined to travel on a Pacer when they visit.

Doing the same as any other preserved line at the same stage… using whats available around them at the time.

 

Modern revisionists really do live in an idyll of what early days preservationists were like… sadly most preserved lines forget their early days pioneers and focus on the play value of today and cast todays values back to how they think it was.

The reality was preservation had two camps.. those raising funds to reopen a line, and those buying and restoring locos. The money was tight, and reopening a line expensive, so stock was sourced cheap as possible, and is arguably why so many industrial steam survived, and why later Diesels, Mk1’s, mk2’s and units are prevalent.

 

Into the future this dynamic wont change, at £100k per mk1 to overhaul fully, so £600k for a rake, or a 2 car 142 at £20k what choice is there to make ?.. Back in the 90’s you could buy a mk1 for £3k and start using it next day.

 

imo the Bluebell passed up a gift when the 205’s were given away, especially as they were in service on their patch right until the end….

 

 

 

205025 seen at Oxted in October 2003, was later preserved by the Mid Hants Railway seen below in 2017..

 

units are useful, dont look the gift horse in the mouth, once they are gone, there is no more coming from where they came from.

Edited November 7, 2023 by adb968008

[Legend]

I must be a dinosaur ! ADB968008 says eyebrows were raised on preservation lines when mk2s introduced , but nobody bothers now . Actually I do !

 

I suppose its an age thing , but if i turn up to a preserved railway actually i'd pretty much like being hauled by a steam loco and ideally in a corridor/ compartment coach . Why ?  Because thats what I associate with old railways . I've held off travelling on the Jacobite , even though each year my family suggest going, because sitting in an open coach to me is pretty much like sitting in a reasonably modern train . It just doesn't have the ambience . That said I'm not anti - diesel . I have travelled to Bo'ness to travel on their preserved Swindon 126 unit . Again it reminds me of the trains of my youth , and although there are compartments in the middle coach I'm quite happy experiencing the open motor cars with their period formica and round lightbulbs 

 

Replace either steam or period dmu with a Pacer or Sprinter , once they reach preservation, and I'd royally be hacked off . Probably want my money back !

 

That said for heritage lines that have "normal" services eg  Wareham- Swanage  I can see they would be useful, but they must be advertised as service/ pacer trains , and the "proper" trains should be clearly marked , so people don't travel miles to be disappointed .

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Most US heritage railways are generally very, very different beasts from British ones.  As you've said they don't run many services, but then our longest lines would be at the shorter end of normal to the US sector; 30 miles plus is typical, they are always marketed primarily as a scenic train ride, frequently through a route inaccessible by road. 

I was reading about a couple of lines in the US recently that seemed to be about 60 miles long and have about one or two return journeys per day (when open). Just looking after and maintaining the track for that sort of distance seems like it would be a massive task, especially for a small number of trains (although on the other hand, perhaps the low level of use extends the life of the track significantly and helps with that).

 

Also, it’s worth pointing out that some US lines that run on an ‘excursion’ model do seem to provide a transport service of sorts, in that the train does take you to see something at the other end (e.g. a tour of a historic city or a more specific heritage site), but it is part of the overall experience and only works one way (unlike a scheduled service, as operated by most UK lines). A UK equivalent would be something like if you could go on the NYMR from Pickering to Whitby and back (with a relatively short amount of time in Whitby itself) but you could not do it the other way (to Pickering and back) within the same day because of how the timetable and ticketing was organised. There was an article in Narrow Gauge World a few years ago about one of the US 3ft gauge lines (I think either Cumbres & Toltec or Durango) that had a timetable that worked like this.

I think there’s also a distinction between a railway taking people to a museum or attraction that is related to, or attached to the railway (like Ingrow Museum of Rail Travel or the Purbeck Mining Museum) and the railway serving as a possible way to reach a nearby but separate site.

 

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Passengers want to be able to see and smell the scenery and hear the trees rusting, birdsong etc, not be sealed in a coach listening to the air-conditioning unit.

Actually I find the ‘sealed in a coach’ effect to be a bit of a problem with some standard gauge lines anyway, especially those with very long trains. On narrow gauge you often seem to get more of a sense of the loco working and the train moving along.

 

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

As for ice-rinks, well maybe as a temporary attraction, but if you start adding permanent non-heritage attractions to a heritage site, it quickly devalues the site and the railway becomes just part of a theme park.

Ice rinks seem like an obviously seasonal (and therefore temporary) winter attraction. On the other hand, some museums (including the one I work in) have children’s play spaces, which I think are generally a good idea. These are usually quite carefully themed around the museum and its collections, so they do actually promote families’ engagement with the museum more generally and encourage them to visit again and explore the rest of the museum (so they are a ‘heritage attraction’ in that sense). At the same time, there’s often an admission charge which helps the museum to generate additional income, which in a way goes back to my previous point about the pressure to increase visitors’ secondary spend. So ideally an extra attraction should encourage visitors to learn more about the heritage site itself (even if in a slightly indirect way) or at the very least generate some extra income to support heritage activities. If you think about it shops can work the same way - e.g. if I visit a preserved railway I might then just buy some branded tat as a souvenir, but equally I could buy a book about the railway in question, which makes the railway money but also helps me to learn more about it.

 

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

change is coming, volunteers are going and we have seen many stand offs between preservation societies who campaigned to create a preserved line, against charities that were created by volunteers to manage that line, whom have since seen those charities subsumed control over the line pushing volunteer interests aside… 

Have these necessarily been specifically around tensions between volunteers and paid staff though, or just governance issues in general?

 

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The best example of a preserved railway Ive seen has to be Dartmouth… Class 117 DMU coaches used as hauled stock, offering lots of open windows, gangways fitted for access, and a straight to the point end to end service.. A right sized steam fleet of freight locos with pretty liveries and names, little excess and wastage, diesels for the shoulder and a non-stop service to a fanstastic tourist destination and ferry… with excellant gift shops. Is it Heritage ? - to joe public they wouldnt know or notice, but its very well run.

In a way I think it is heritage (in the sense that they’re using steam at all, there are historic station buildings etc.), although possibly less concerned with historical accuracy in the details than some other lines (if that makes sense).

[Steven B]

12 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

2) Should Pacers be used instead of steam-hauled services? 

      No. For goodness sake don't be silly. The punters want steamers. Or HSTs.

     

I'd much rather ride a Pacer on a preserved railway than an HST, for much the same reason I'd prefer a class 2 or 3 than an A4 on the same line - one's much more in keeping, the other's being kept on a tight leash and really needs to be out on the main line with a 60+mph speed limit.

 

I'm quite happy that there are folk who don't want to ride on a preserved Pacer - means more chance of me getting a window seat!

 

Steven B.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Steven B said:

I'd much rather ride a Pacer on a preserved railway than an HST, for much the same reason I'd prefer a class 2 or 3 than an A4 on the same line - one's much more in keeping, the other's being kept on a tight leash and really needs to be out on the main line with a 60+mph speed limit.

 

Steven B.

Funny thing my dad used to say the same thing, seeing a Bulleid or an A4 trundling about…

he said watching them on a preserved line was a poor substitute for the mainline.

 

I never quite understood as a kid, until a decade ago riding on 50027 at MidHants, thinking a class 50 at 25mph wasnt the same thing as my memories… I promptly told my little one about watching 50’s flying through Clapham jn, and saw 50049/007 on a railtour was scheduled.. so late night arranged and off we went… then guess what… the 50’s got checked and limped through !

 

My other odd experience was last weekend.. the 125 group HST railtour to St Pancras…. It looked and felt eerily like… well that nothing had really changed.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by adb968008

[Wheatley]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Swanage could have saved a small fortune. (£1mn that wasnt it ?)  using a pacer (c£15k) instead of overhauling the 117/121, and would passengers turn sniffy for a 142 instead of a 117 ? 

 

18 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

I also seem to recall reading about an incident on the Bluebell in the early 1990s when a freshly delivered Mk1 in NSE livery had to be pressed into passenger service and the railway got a load of complaints from people who didn't appreciate coming to the Bluebell to ride in the 'same coaches' (by which the passengers meant the Mk1 slam door EMUs) they did during their commutes into London in (It was hastily repainted green over the winter plus ex NSE interior signage removed and the complaints stopped)

 

Paint the Pacers green with speed whiskers - problem solved. I'm only half joking...

[adb968008]

7 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 

 

Paint the Pacers green with speed whiskers - problem solved. I'm only half joking...

These guys are half serious…

 

(not my image)

 

[Tom Burnham]

I'm no sort of expert, but I wonder if the exponentially increasing amount of electronics and similar gadgetery on "modern" rolling stock (say post-Mk IIA) will be difficult to keep working reliably, given that it'll be sitting around in a damp siding much of the winter and spares will be difficult to source?

[Northmoor]

20 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The best example of a preserved railway Ive seen has to be Dartmouth… Class 117 DMU coaches used as hauled stock, offering lots of open windows, gangways fitted for access, and a straight to the point end to end service.. A right sized steam fleet of freight locos with pretty liveries and names, little excess and wastage, diesels for the shoulder and a non-stop service to a fanstastic tourist destination and ferry… with excellant gift shops. Is it Heritage ? - to joe public they wouldnt know or notice, but its very well run.

I agree with a lot of what you've written, but this point above is missed by too many enthusiasts who dismiss the R&DR as not a "real" preserved railway.  I'm from the camp that says is probably closer to what the GWR itself would have done had it survived into the modern world.  It is a business - although there are much easier ways for the owners to earn a living - which gets its product exactly right: the location is perfect, it goes from somewhere to somewhere* (and the length of line is sustainable by the fares they can charge), as you say it runs no more locos and stock than it needs and does things to appeal to the general public, largely ignoring what enthusiasts insist it should be doing.  Interestingly, the P&DR did for some time run a public service with the DMU but gave up in the late 80s, I think.  Even in a location like they have, they couldn't make the numbers stand up.

 

*It is amazing how many preserved lines actually aspire to run from nowhere, to nowhere (or if they're lucky, from the edge of somewhere to the edge of somewhere else), through nowhere in particular.

[papagolfjuliet]

Worth noting that the Paignton & Dartmouth or whatever it's called this week is not and does not pretend to be a preserved railway. Like the Snowdon Mountain it is a mass transit tourist railway which happens to use steam. It has no volunteers, makes no concessions to 'heritage' anywhere along its route, and since 2020 has had no intermediate stations. It is a business out to make money through running steam trains (and buses and a ferry). That's fine in its place but it is hardly a model for preservationists to follow and most lines would quickly go bust if they tried. Indeed preserved lines which because of their location also operate as mass transit tourist railways tend to have to compensate for that in other ways because they simply can't afford or attract a 100% paid workforce: there is no economic or operational reason for the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland to maintain a working fleet of four Quarry Hunslets or for the NYMR to run a Belgian steam tram and a rake of LNER teaks which can't even go to Whitby, but volunteers would soon take their labour elsewhere if these were removed.

Edited November 8, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[papagolfjuliet]

On 25/08/2023 at 04:21, DavidB-AU said:

I read endless letters in railway magazines of the 1970s and early 80s ridiculing suggestions that diesels should be preserved, because don't have the character of steam and don't belong on heritage lines. Now diesel galas are an intrinsic part of many heritage railways. Literally the same views resurface every 20 or so years when another generation of rollingstock is retired.

 

That's partly a generational thing. The people running preserved lines in the 70s and early 80s were largely of a generation who predated BR and loathed it - hence all those fictitious and pre-grouping liveries on BR-built engines. The generation which replaced them in the mid-80s had a much more nostalgic view of BR and wanted to recapture their 60s and 70s childhoods - hence twenty years of everything in BR black ("David Wilcock's Improved Engine Green" as one wag dubbed it) and Rail Blue. Now a third generation has come along which takes a much more ecumenical view and wants variety, and as a result we have seen the return of pre-nationalisation and even fictitious liveries on lines such as the NYMR and KWVR (41241 being a case in point) along with the embrace of DMUs from *that* generation's childhoods. The days of preservation's high heidyins saying "You're not running THAT on my train set" are not long over but they are over.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

The days of preservation's high heidyins saying "You're not running THAT on my train set" are not long over but they are over.

 

Sadly they are not.

I know because I offered to buy a Pacer, and three lines I mentioned it too, gave me the over my dead body speech.

so I didn't proceed in the one I was interested in, I left it to be scrapped.

I wasnt prepared to be fighting for a home for it, considering how many others were being preserved.

There are plenty of fiefdoms out there, have a read of comments on various railway facebook groups, it can be quite entertaining, like watching volcanos and lava, its not just the WSR and epic traumas, or the ELRs continual PR disasters.. every line has a wannabe king and followers throwing eggs, but the various political sides all seem to relish in it, and things roll on. Strathspey seems to be the latest line where a naked lovers been caught climbing out of the window as the husband comes home all playing out in livestream.

 

Railway Politica has always been a passionate playground, its amazing how so much has been achieved in the hobby given the squabbling it does... if there was more good leadership and less regality many lines could achieve much more than they do.

 

But to think those days are over, sadly facebook tells you differently, indeed take a look at where Pacers are actually preserved… that will give good insights to the gaps where they are not preserved, and where those future  dead bodies maybe hiding.

At the start of the thread I highlighted how Bury was home to early days diesel preservation (because it had land and a home to offer that steam locos didnt want). But today ELRs diesel fleet is the envy of the hobby and their locos are highly shared around the country. I believe the same will be true of Pacers someday.. they are hibernating right now in safe houses, waiting their time to shake dust off those skeletons of faded empires.

Edited November 8, 2023 by adb968008

[009 micro modeller]

25 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

It has no volunteers

Which does not in itself make it less of a heritage railway (see also the Vale of Rheidol, largely operated by paid staff but still a heritage railway). Heritage railways are  perhaps a bit unusual amongst the wider heritage sector in being so extensively volunteer-run or volunteer-led (although almost all museums have volunteers, just not always in such core roles).

 

30 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Worth noting that the Paignton & Dartmouth or whatever it's called this week is not and does not pretend to be a preserved railway. Like the Snowdon Mountain it is a mass transit tourist railway which happens to use steam.

Snowdon is an interesting case, I think coming closer to the sort of purely tourist line that seems more common in other countries. It is iirc run commercially (as opposed to being run with paid staff but by a charity, which would be quite different). In recent years with the new carriages being introduced (not able to be hauled/pushed by steam locos) they’ve kind of separated off  the steam services as a separate heritage ‘product’ with more expensive tickets than the diesel service. The rationale for this was apparently based on the idea that most people go on the SMR because they want to go up Snowdon (or see the scenery on the way) and not particularly because they want to go on a steam-hauled train. Anyone who went on the SMR before, when they ran a mixed steam and diesel service, will also remember that you couldn’t actually guarantee in advance that your booked train would be steam-hauled anyway, which was annoying for some people.

 

Dartmouth is perhaps a bit different, they use steam for their main services and they are in some way preserving something, by keeping the steam locos in working order and demonstrating how they work through their use on the line. It’s probably the point where you get into the question of heritage vs nostalgia. I read an article about this the other day - specifically in the context of open-air museums, like Beamish, but it could also apply to heritage railways, or any museum really. The article noted the pressure to, on one hand, offer visitors an enjoyable day out, but on the other hand the need to present the history accurately and not gloss over the less positive bits. But for an organisation that is focused on nostalgia and tourism this dilemma disappears to a large extent.

 

Personally I increasingly prefer the term ‘heritage railway’, just because a lot of them have been either changed from how they looked before preservation, or were rebuilt from virtually nothing rather than being ‘preserved’ (like the L&B at Woody Bay). The other lines that some people would probably not consider to be “heritage” are the narrow gauge lines on old standard gauge (or wider narrow gauge) track beds, but for Llanberis and (especially more recently) Bala Lake I think they preserve and present the slate railway history of the wider area, even if not strictly on that exact site. Brecon is slightly different - it does have historic locos, but not always in original liveries and with no particular connection to the area they now operate in. Although I like it because it allows people to experience a kind of railway and its equipment that otherwise can’t really be seen in Britain. Bure Valley or Kirklees are different again, mostly using new-build stock. Both great railways in any case, and they operate steam on an original railway route, but is their status as ‘heritage railways’ perhaps a bit more tenuous?

 

Getting a bit too far off-topic now though. Do we need a thread split for this?

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Worth noting that the Paignton & Dartmouth or whatever it's called this week is not and does not pretend to be a preserved railway. Like the Snowdon Mountain it is a mass transit tourist railway which happens to use steam. It has no volunteers, makes no concessions to 'heritage' anywhere along its route, and since 2020 has had no intermediate stations. It is a business out to make money through running steam trains (and buses and a ferry). That's fine in its place but it is hardly a model for preservationists to follow and most lines would quickly go bust if they tried. Indeed preserved lines which because of their location also operate as mass transit tourist railways tend to have to compensate for that in other ways because they simply can't afford or attract a 100% paid workforce: there is no economic or operational reason for the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland to maintain a working fleet of four Quarry Hunslets or the for the NYMR to run a Belgian steam tram and a rake of LNER teaks which can't even go to Whitby, but volunteers would soon take their labour elsewhere if these were removed.

Yeah, i agree, but it wasnt what I was highlighting…

 

The key word is rightsizing.

 

Restoring several large locos for many lines maybe good for enthusiasts but not the coal bill.

The public dont really care what the loco is, but do like pretty and names.

Similarly shoddy, fading, rusted rolling stock will leave a bad impression.

Bad toilets do too.

 

Dartmouth does all of this right.. no Bulleids, just freight locos suitable for their hills.

No hulks and wrecks, no poor stock.

 

A lot of lines resemble scrapyards, the rolling stock looks like it is on the way there.

 

Lines should focus on the product.. the line, stations, rolling stock ambiance, revenue oppourtunities…

 

Then it doesnt matter if its an industrial estate outside, or the end of the line is a field, afterall cinemas, bowling alleys etc arent always on a sunny beach either.

Get that right, the customers mood will be better influenced for success.

Then just select the right sized traction for the line… if its a shiny restored pacer, an 0-4-0ST, a Bulleid or a 25.

 

You dont find Bulleid pacifics at Lakeside and Haverthwaite, or a fleet changing every season, and if you want a Fairburn tank theres only one line your going to… another well run line.

(i’m surprised they didnt get a pacer too, but I guess the 110 does the job).

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by adb968008

[Ben B]

 

Double Pacers on the KWVR during the railcar event a couple of weeks back... the leading unit was bought as a spares donor, but later used for filming, and specially re-liveried and branded for this gala, harking back to the days of the 4-wheel railbuses in their 'house' liveries. It's a shame the public transport (peak hours) plan keeps getting blocked, as these would be perfect.

 

 

Interesting event, the railcar gala; it also featured the stalwart W&M Railbus, and the 101, now in blue. But there was a 'regular' steam service too, so plenty of balance, something the KWVR does well, and can do quite easily with it's relatively short length... if you're visiting and want a steam engine, there'll probably be one along without too much wait. In which case, it feels like  less of an issue having a Pacer diagrammed too.

 

 

With the 101, a few years ago it feels like it would have been unthinkable to have a DMU on the line in anything but BR green, admittedly green being authentic for the KWVR in mainline ownership. It feels to me like it's oddly split; the steam fleet has been whittled back down to mostly BR Black (and one inauthentic -for that particular loco- lined green) standard types, hauling maroon Mk.1's.

 

By contrast, it's the diesels that are now the bastions of interesting liveries, mainly being 90's schemes. Though the 'workaday' diesel, Vulcan, still carries fictional BR green.

[Steven B]

17 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Paint the Pacers green with speed whiskers - problem solved. I'm only half joking...

 

They look rather smart in crimson and cream (even if someone had the paint diagram upside down!)

144011 at Haworth by West Yorkshire Bus Spotter, on Flickr

 

Steven B

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Yeah, i agree, but it wasnt what I was highlighting…

 

The key word is rightsizing.

 

Restoring several large locos for many lines maybe good for enthusiasts but not the coal bill.

The public dont really care what the loco is, but do like pretty and names.

Similarly shoddy, fading, rusted rolling stock will leave a bad impression.

Bad toilets do too.

 

Dartmouth does all of this right.. no Bulleids, just freight locos suitable for their hills.

No hulks and wrecks, no poor stock.

 

A lot of lines resemble scrapyards, the rolling stock looks like it is on the way there.

 

Lines should focus on the product.. the line, stations, rolling stock ambiance, revenue oppourtunities…

 

Then it doesnt matter if its an industrial estate outside, or the end of the line is a field, afterall cinemas, bowling alleys etc arent always on a sunny beach either.

Get that right, the customers mood will be better influenced for success.

Then just select the right sized traction for the line… if its a shiny restored pacer, an 0-4-0ST, a Bulleid or a 25.

 

You dont find Bulleid pacifics at Lakeside and Haverthwaite, or a fleet changing every season, and if you want a Fairburn tank theres only one line your going to… another well run line.

(i’m surprised they didnt get a pacer too, but I guess the 110 does the job).

 

 

 

 

Actually, now that I think about it, Lakeside and Haverthwaite is even more similar to Dartmouth as they both have connections to tourist boat services. Although am I right in thinking that there was originally more of a heritage focus at Haverthwaite and there is still some volunteer involvement?

 

One obvious (but not always visible) distinction between heritage and purely tourist lines is whether they are run with the involvement of a charitable trust whose aims and objectives include references to things like heritage, education or the preservation of railway artefacts. Most heritage lines do seem to be (though they may have a technically separate operating company to manage liability etc.) but I’m not sure about Dartmouth or Haverthwaite. I did visit the latter once though (riding from Haverthwaite to Lakeside behind one of their industrial steam locos and then back, after a short walk, from Newby Bridge to Haverthwaite) and found it a lovely line and an enjoyable experience, Haverthwaite being a particularly nice station to spend time at. Also, given the tourist appeal of the area and the physical limitations of what they can do in terms of expansion (for instance, I gather that extension beyond Haverthwaite would now be very difficult) they seem to have done very well. And their website is certainly very good in terms of heritage information about the locos and stock.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Actually, now that I think about it, Lakeside and Haverthwaite is even more similar to Dartmouth as they both have connections to tourist boat services. Although am I right in thinking that there was originally more of a heritage focus at Haverthwaite and there is still some volunteer involvement?

 

One obvious (but not always visible) distinction between heritage and purely tourist lines is whether they are run with the involvement of a charitable trust whose aims and objectives include references to things like heritage, education or the preservation of railway artefacts. Most heritage lines do seem to be (though they may have a technically separate operating company to manage liability etc.) but I’m not sure about Dartmouth or Haverthwaite. I did visit the latter once though (riding from Haverthwaite to Lakeside behind one of their industrial steam locos and then back, after a short walk, from Newby Bridge to Haverthwaite) and found it a lovely line and an enjoyable experience, Haverthwaite being a particularly nice station to spend time at. Also, given the tourist appeal of the area and the physical limitations of what they can do in terms of expansion (for instance, I gather that extension beyond Haverthwaite would now be very difficult) they seem to have done very well. And their website is certainly very good in terms of heritage information about the locos and stock.

One can be a charity, and run a company that makes a profit.

Charities dont have to make a loss.

 

Which means any charity could adopt a business service model like LHR, DSR etc..

indeed my point is, in the future they may need to if their charitable aims are to be sustained.

Volunteers are increasingly becoming separate organisations from charities on preserved railways.

 

What it invariably means is the preservation group giving up ownership of their asset to a charity, which is maintained according to charity rules and governance, but attracts easier routes of funding. The preservation group then becomes supporters, but equally the charity could get rid of them. Depending on the rules on set up they could even change the product… ie if the aims was education and preservation of technologies… they could change from a railway to a cycle path as long as the educational and preservation of technologies aim was met.

 

But bottom line, railways need to become more self sustainable, as volunteers get harder to come by, and costs rise… if thats becoming more commercial, binning off hopeless projects and reducing stock to what is self maintable and only using the right sized fleet and quantity of locos so be it…. Thats where i circle back to things like a pacer.. cheap, reliable. Theres no Br to sell you 101’s any more..

It might not be a Duchess but at 9am and 5pm if it provides a ride home to customers who stay that extra hour spending money in the buffet and uses 1/10th the fuel….its earning its keep… indeed the Duchess may become “The Duchess” a lined red 0-6-0T, providing a ride to the museum where the big one is kept safely off revenues from the charities profits instead of outside for two decades awaiting some hope, volunteers and money to arrive faster than the rust.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by adb968008

[papagolfjuliet]

4 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

By contrast, it's the diesels that are now the bastions of interesting liveries, mainly being 90's schemes. Though the 'workaday' diesel, Vulcan, still carries fictional BR green.

 

Although of course for many years 'Vulcan' carried much more interesting liveries: first two tone red, then DP1 blue, and very nice it looked too in both. Funnily enough the one livery it hasn't carried since arrival is the correct English Electric black and orange livery.

 

 

 

 

[papagolfjuliet]

Parenthetically back in the very early days of RMWeb I recall somebody shring some images of a model of D0226 they'd made using a Hornby inside frame 08 body and a Bachmann/Mainline J72 chassis as a basis. Must give that a go some time. 

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

One can be a charity, and run a company that makes a profit.

Charities dont have to make a loss.

Exactly, of course charities can make a profit, but that wasn’t quite what I was saying. I was suggesting though that being run by a charity whose charitable aims are those typical of a heritage sector organisation (conservation of artefacts, education, engagement with heritage etc.) would make a railway a heritage railway by definition, even if others might see it only as a tourist railway. Whether it is actually achieving those charitable aims is another matter. A more primarily tourist-focused line run entirely by a private company would (like some commercially run miniature railways) have no such declared purpose and no such aims or the implied restrictions on how profit should be reinvested.

 

Edit: there are of course the cases where charitable aims are so widely defined, as you point out, that technically they could not run the railway at all and still sort of fulfil them, but that extreme situation seems a bit unlikely. On the other hand though, some lines are actually Accredited Museums, further defining them as heritage railways (and organisations) with the benefits and challenges which that brings.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

indeed the Duchess may become “The Duchess” a lined red 0-6-0T, providing a ride to the museum where the big one is kept safely

Actually in some cases that may not be a bad thing, especially in the scenario where the loco in question is far too large and complicated for the line, or it’s a unique survivor, or it contains so much original material that it’s more valuable to preserve it ‘as is’ than attempt to run it again. And then there’s early steam locos like Rocket, which are fragile, very old and therefore kept in museums, but often have a replica operating outside.

 

In the museum I work in we have a small railway (a historic industrial one, not miniature etc.). For rather specific reasons, the original rolling stock is not suitable for the current operation (unless perhaps it was very expensively and insensitively rebuilt) so we use new trains built for the museum, but the original infrastructure is all preserved as far as possible for visitors to see on their way round, and examples of all the original stock are preserved in the museum. And the railway operation is all paid staff, although we have volunteer participation elsewhere in the museum.

[Not Jeremy]

8 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

Double Pacers on the KWVR during the railcar event a couple of weeks back... the leading unit was bought as a spares donor, but later used for filming, and specially re-liveried and branded for this gala, harking back to the days of the 4-wheel railbuses in their 'house' liveries. It's a shame the public transport (peak hours) plan keeps getting blocked, as these would be perfect.

 

 

Interesting event, the railcar gala; it also featured the stalwart W&M Railbus, and the 101, now in blue. But there was a 'regular' steam service too, so plenty of balance, something the KWVR does well, and can do quite easily with it's relatively short length... if you're visiting and want a steam engine, there'll probably be one along without too much wait. In which case, it feels like  less of an issue having a Pacer diagrammed too.

 

 

With the 101, a few years ago it feels like it would have been unthinkable to have a DMU on the line in anything but BR green, admittedly green being authentic for the KWVR in mainline ownership. It feels to me like it's oddly split; the steam fleet has been whittled back down to mostly BR Black (and one inauthentic -for that particular loco- lined green) standard types, hauling maroon Mk.1's.

 

By contrast, it's the diesels that are now the bastions of interesting liveries, mainly being 90's schemes. Though the 'workaday' diesel, Vulcan, still carries fictional BR green.

 

What great pictures of a preserved railway moving with the times, I kind of like the Pacers and think that they might actually be improved  by having some "fictitious" liveries applied.

 

And really wonderful to see the Met Cam without orange cant rail stripes, I'm not quite sure why but they really bug me!

 

Thank you for sharing the pictures.

 

Simon

[Not Jeremy]

23 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

I'm no sort of expert, but I wonder if the exponentially increasing amount of electronics and similar gadgetery on "modern" rolling stock (say post-Mk IIA) will be difficult to keep working reliably, given that it'll be sitting around in a damp siding much of the winter and spares will be difficult to source?

 

Then rebuild them with simpler control gear, use batteries, put solar panels on the roof, or whatever.

 

There must be zillions of interesting possibilities for what is, basically, a delightfully simple machine. And there probably wouldn't be the howls of anguish you might get for "improving" more heritage gear. Battery powered "Flying Scotsman" anyone?

 

Think positive, it is still possible🙂

[adb968008]

Pacers, and Sprinters predate the IT revolution, which is pertinent…

Indeed they are probably the last chance at non complex units to preserve, indeed last chance at units that follow some form of BR standardisation, unipart etc.

 

i’m not sure how well a Voyager, Adelante, Desiro etc would do on a preserved railway… bespoke units, more IT Centric etc..

 

computer chips / boards themselves can be an issue, I recall the problems with the 37/9’s when something happened to their boards a decade ago.

 

Complexities will probably start when the first 59’s are preserved, which probably isnt that too far away.

Edited November 8, 2023 by adb968008