Wagon kit building - clamps and jigs

[robmanchester]

Hello,

Can anybody tell me if there are any clamps or jigs available these days to be used when assembling the sides/ends of wagon kits. They would also be good for any other glue-ups that required holding at 90 degrees. I thought I had seen some advertised but can't seem to locate them now. I did find some clamps by Micromark which were $40.00 each and out of stock...

Thanks

Rob

 

[brossard]

I've never used clamps for bodies.  Assemble one half at a time using a cutting mat with squares on it for alignment.  When set - wait for it! - assemble the two halves together.  The corner joints are sufficiently flexible to be adjusted if required.  Make triangular gussets to reinforce the corners.  You may also want to add a strengthener at the center of the wagon to stop the sides from bowing in.

 

Edit:  above comments are for vans.

 

If doing an open wagon the floor should help strengthen it.

 

$40 for clamps is crazy.

 

John

Edited September 8, 2023 by brossard

[The Johnster]

Those of us who watch Futurama will agree; Clamps is crazy...

 

Go to your local Lego shop, most big towns and cities have them, not sure if you can do this online.  Two years ago, so the price may have increased since, I went to the one in Cardiff where they sold me a bucket of bricks for £6.  The bucket is plastic with a lid and a moderately useful item in itself, about 9" diameter at the top and the same deep, tapering to about 7" diameter.  You can specify as many bricks in whatever shapes, sizes, and colours you like, and the shop guy will keep putting them in until he can't get the lid on, then take a few out, and give you the bucket.

 

I had mostly the standard brick, some flat ones, a good few half-size, and a selection of 45-degree, 30/60 degree, and curve arch pieces.  They have come in handy for all sorts of things, but in this context are excellent formers for making right- and other angled corners in wagon and building kits or scratchbuilds.  Hold a wagon end vertically against a brick on a flat work surface, then offer the side to the end also holding it vertically against the brick, hey presto! right angle.  Run glue down the join above the brick, and put a cotton wool bud in to stop the glue dripping on to the brick.  When glue goes off, remove the brick and, if you think you need to, run glue down the rest of the join.  Repeat for floor, hey presto, structurally strong corner of wagon or building, about five minute's work with superglue.  Angled pieces for roofs.  Large bricks for marking out door or window reveals, small square ones for smaller window reveals; stuff that occurs to you while you are making things.

 

I was put on to this by a bloke up the pub who is a research scientist, who told me that Lego bricks are standard equipement in laboratories, used for visualisation models of anything from the Big Bang to DNA helixes and engineering proof-of-concepts, as well as support frameworks for various other experiments, and, as on the layout, anything that comes to mind.  Pretty good £6s worth.

 

FTFY.

Edited September 8, 2023 by The Johnster

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

3 2 1 engineering blocks and magnets for me to ensure squareness.

 

Mike.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Practically anyone doing a little metalwork will find use for an engineers square. Mine segued into model railway kitbuilding about 3 weeks after starting metalwork classes at school, on discovering that many of the classroom shop tools were knackered. Also steel rule, scriber: further kit followed.

[The Johnster]

I am also a fan of the steel rule, as well as a flat glass working surface as datum.

[robmanchester]

Thanks to all for the replies. I think the 1-2-3 blocks or the Lego sound options to explore.

Rob

 

[The Johnster]

Get geniune Lego; they are superbly engineered to very fine tolerances and can be relied upon to provide proper right angles.

[DayReturn]

Another all-purpose item to have handy is a length of extruded aluminium angle from Wickes or similar, typically the 2cm by 2cm one, though the other ones might be handy sometimes.  That gives you an internal and external right angle, it’s easy to cut to whatever length and shape you want, so it’s handy for making any number of jigs.  It also comes in useful as a rightangle fence on your workbench which you can screw down and I’m about to use some on my coach lining jig to make a horizontal reference fence.

[Enterprisingwestern]

3 hours ago, DayReturn said:

Another all-purpose item to have handy is a length of extruded aluminium angle from Wickes or similar, typically the 2cm by 2cm one, though the other ones might be handy sometimes.  That gives you an internal and external right angle, it’s easy to cut to whatever length and shape you want, so it’s handy for making any number of jigs.  It also comes in useful as a rightangle fence on your workbench which you can screw down and I’m about to use some on my coach lining jig to make a horizontal reference fence.

 

Check the angle first, as they are extruded they can be 88 degrees or thereabouts.

 

Mike.

[Steamport Southport]

These things you mean?

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/proses-ppr-ss-02-snap-glue-set-square-2-magnetic-clamps-w8-magnets?variant=35450944028744&currency=GBP&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google+shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwr_CnBhA0EiwAci5sivlo0oP6ttRk2rcbrxtQl7Q1kOr9hDYQLGO45oy6NkEAQAEDmYY70xoCpXgQAvD_BwE

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/proses-ppr-ss-03-hold-glue-right-angle-holders-for-kit-buildings-2-in-a-set

 

Never felt the need for them to be honest. 

 

 

Jason

[DayReturn]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Check the angle first, as they are extruded they can be 88 degrees or thereabouts.

 

Mike.

Closer to a right-angle than many real wooden wagons and none-too-few steel ones then?  ;-). (Or the walls of my Victorian house :-(    )

 

Yes you are right of course, but the material is easy to work.  A good quality medium sized flat fine file is also a very useful tool, and can straighten out that sort of deviation.  I cut slots out to allow for e.g. moulded bolt heads and washer plates, and corner plates, and finish up with jigs that are specifically for a particular kit, but the angle extrusion is within the tolerances of most cast and moulded wagon kits.  As a flat straightedge, it is invaluable.  I couldn’t find my box of wagon jigs, but the pic shows it as a straightedge reference fence on my lining setup.

 

 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, DayReturn said:

Closer to a right-angle than many real wooden wagons and none-too-few steel ones then?

 

By a country mile.

 

But it is important to assemble wagon kits as square and 'right' as possible, as the trick to good running is to ensure that the wheelsets are dead level and square to the vehicle.  If you can stand the finished kit on a glass surface and it rocks, even by a micron, this has not been achieved.  The first thing to do if you follow the instructions (I know, we're guys, we don't follow instructions, but bear with) is always to construct the body structure, and this is for two reasons, firstly to create a structurally rigid box as the basis of the kit, and secondly to provide a square and level datum for the chassis.  Get this right and glue a bit of ballast underneath (or inside if it's a van) and you've got a decent runner!

 

Distorting bodies to represent worn out wooden minerals or opens that are not dead square should be restriced to RTR models, which have separate chassis and body parts; you can perform whatever abuse you like to your body* without affecting the chassis.  On a kit, the chassis is glued to the body, which is the main structural element of the model, but with an RTR wagon, the chassis has it's own structural integrity without the body holding it together.

 

 

*In the privacy of your own home and with the full consent of all participants of course...

 

 

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, DayReturn said:

Another all-purpose item to have handy is a length of extruded aluminium angle from Wickes or similar, typically the 2cm by 2cm one, though the other ones might be handy sometimes.  That gives you an internal and external right angle, it’s easy to cut to whatever length and shape you want, so it’s handy for making any number of jigs.  It also comes in useful as a rightangle fence on your workbench which you can screw down and I’m about to use some on my coach lining jig to make a horizontal reference fence.

 

Or something like this.  An L shaped 3D print which is right angled in section, all the corners are as near 90 degrees as it is possible to get, and is printed in PETG, so is reasonably immune to the soldering iron, and unlike aluminium, doesn't act as a heat sink.

 

 

Adrian

[DayReturn]

Yes of course you are right, The  Johnster.  And we should aim for the highest precision of which we are capable.

 

Meanwhile Ive found a pair of jigs, these fit a Woodham Wagon Works LBSCR 4 plank open, among others, and I’ve set it up for the very same.  
The sides are pinned to the jig with pairs of magnets, and it stands on a sheet of glass, though only the end castings actually sit on the glass and they are not perfectly flat.  I’ve deliberately put the loose end at an angle to stress its only role is to level the side.  In shot as well are the corresponding inside jig and an engineer’s square, plus the kind of file that is very useful for getting flat, straight surfaces on kits, such as the edge of the solebar of the other side, posed accordingly.

[robmanchester]

This was the wagon clamp I was originally thinking of - just found this pic I have had for years. The company doesn't seem to exist anymore.

 

Rob

 

 

 

[DayReturn]

The picture you show, Rob, illustrates another point to keep in mind.  The kit shown in the Railway Hobby Shop tool, sits flat on the jig, upside down, whereas lots of rolling stock won’t have  flat edges in any plane.  The LBSCR wagon in my example has rounded ends (to support a wagon sheet and hopefully allow rain to run off - wonderfully optimistic, those Victorians).  Likewise van ends.  Straight ended open wagons often had side and especially end door hinges, and in later years had a protective metal strip stapled to the upper edge.  And while the side rail, solebar and headstock might have had little to disrupt a smooth bottom edge, kit makers often include additional elements into the single casting, if not the whole axleguard assemblage.   In my example the opposite applies, the solebars are entirely separate so the bottom rail is 12 inches above the flat datum.   Likewise the surface detail interferes with squareness of the side plane and end plane, so geometrically solid faces on the jig, are not as helpful as one might suppose, compared with something tailored.

[robmanchester]

11 minutes ago, DayReturn said:

The picture you show, Rob, illustrates another point to keep in mind.  The kit shown in the Railway Hobby Shop tool, sits flat on the jig, upside down, whereas lots of rolling stock won’t have  flat edges in any plane.  The LBSCR wagon in my example has rounded ends (to support a wagon sheet and hopefully allow rain to run off - wonderfully optimistic, those Victorians).  Likewise van ends.  Straight ended open wagons often had side and especially end door hinges, and in later years had a protective metal strip stapled to the upper edge.  And while the side rail, solebar and headstock might have had little to disrupt a smooth bottom edge, kit makers often include additional elements into the single casting, if not the whole axleguard assemblage.   In my example the opposite applies, the solebars are entirely separate so the bottom rail is 12 inches above the flat datum.   Likewise the surface detail interferes with squareness of the side plane and end plane, so geometrically solid faces on the jig, are not as helpful as one might suppose, compared with something tailored.

 

Yes, very good points, thank you. I have a wagon stock of Coopercraft, Slaters, Ratio etc and the top of the sides and ends is usually flat and 'upgrades' such as capping strips, decent metal end door bars and such like would usually be added after the basic body shell is assembled. You are of course right about covered vans and round ended wagons and not being able to use the base of a jig as a flat reference.

 

I must admit to often building a wagon by asembling the sides/ends without the floor in place but just using the floor ( assuming it is a decent moulding and the correct size ) helps a lot in getting things pretty near square.

 

Judging by the number of pictures including wagons with sheets I have seen I don't think either a round end or a sheet bar did much to prevent a build up of water ! I bet a lot of staff got wet when unloading....

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

Rob

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

But it is important to assemble wagon kits as square and 'right' as possible, as the trick to good running is to ensure that the wheelsets are dead level and square to the vehicle.  If you can stand the finished kit on a glass surface and it rocks, even by a micron, this has not been achieved.  The first thing to do if you follow the instructions (I know, we're guys, we don't follow instructions, but bear with) is always to construct the body structure, and this is for two reasons, firstly to create a structurally rigid box as the basis of the kit, and secondly to provide a square and level datum for the chassis.  Get this right and glue a bit of ballast underneath (or inside if it's a van) and you've got a decent runner!

 

 

 

 

 

I've posted this hereabouts before, so apologies, but this is my way of ensuring this most important feature.

 

 

Mike.

 

[DayReturn]

1 hour ago, robmanchester said:

 

using the floor ( assuming it is a decent moulding and the correct size )

Bold assumptions!  Lots of Slaters floors are a touch too wide, and lots of otherwise masterful kits have a token rectangle of stripey embossed styrene in lieu of a floor.  It’s going off topic, but one tool I’m continually finding new uses for and the ability to refine models with, is my vinyl cutter.  I have a Silhouette Cameo, and Cricut ones are essentially the same.   One of the simplest outputs from it is wagon floors with precise rectangular corners and dimensions, with correctly scored representations of the floor planking (whose joins would only be discernible from the fillet of dirt lodging there), and entirely repeatable at the press of a button.  (And for the Woodham kit in my photos, the cutouts to step around the cast internal ironwork.). You can’t go thicker than 20 thou styrene without completing the cut by hand, but you can laminate two guaranteed identical floor pieces together if 20 thou is too thin.  And there are hundreds of other things you can do with the machine that involve sheet work accurate to +/- 0.1mm.   But that’s another topic.

[robmanchester]

11 minutes ago, DayReturn said:

Bold assumptions!  Lots of Slaters floors are a touch too wide, and lots of otherwise masterful kits have a token rectangle of stripey embossed styrene in lieu of a floor.  It’s going off topic, but one tool I’m continually finding new uses for and the ability to refine models with, is my vinyl cutter.  I have a Silhouette Cameo, and Cricut ones are essentially the same.   One of the simplest outputs from it is wagon floors with precise rectangular corners and dimensions, with correctly scored representations of the floor planking (whose joins would only be discernible from the fillet of dirt lodging there), and entirely repeatable at the press of a button.  (And for the Woodham kit in my photos, the cutouts to step around the cast internal ironwork.). You can’t go thicker than 20 thou styrene without completing the cut by hand, but you can laminate two guaranteed identical floor pieces together if 20 thou is too thin.  And there are hundreds of other things you can do with the machine that involve sheet work accurate to +/- 0.1mm.   But that’s another topic.

 I often junk kit floors. By the time you have made changes to the wagon spec such as sprung or compensated w-irons that involve having a flat floor it is often easier to cut a rectangle of 0.040" plastikard than file the kit floor down. If the wagon is going to run empty I use an Olafa cutter to scribe the planks ( fingers crossed it doesn't have bottom doors....... )

 

The vinyl cutter sounds nice. Maybe I can get the wife interested as she does cardmaking and such like 😁 How long do the blades last when cutting styrene ?

 

Rob

 

[DayReturn]

6 minutes ago, robmanchester said:

  How long do the blades last when cutting styrene ?

 

 

I don’t know!  I bought mine second hand and bought an extra, new auto blade, plus a sheaf of manually adjusting blades and a holder.  At first I thought I needed the new blade, but once I got used to settings that worked, I went back to the old blade and I’m still using it, on card and styrene and also on outlines of large letters on white transfer film.  That’s several dozen sheets of styrene plus numerous draft first cuts and mock-ups in cheapish card.  I also turned a collet and a scribing pin to use to scribe faint laying-outs on sheet metal.    You can set depth, speed, force and number of cuts, so lots of parameters, but it pays to be cautious, not ambitious or hasty.

[jwealleans]

If you see a copy, get hold of or borrow John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon.  It doesn't matter if you never want to build a coal wagon in your life in any scale, the ideas and hints about useful jigs and tools for kit and scratchbuilding are worth the price of the book alone.  I've made both the wooden work supports he recommends and use one or other constantly.

[robmanchester]

11 hours ago, jwealleans said:

If you see a copy, get hold of or borrow John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon.  It doesn't matter if you never want to build a coal wagon in your life in any scale, the ideas and hints about useful jigs and tools for kit and scratchbuilding are worth the price of the book alone.  I've made both the wooden work supports he recommends and use one or other constantly.

 

Thank you, yes I have a copy of the book. I met John once, such a nice guy and such a shame he died so early

 

Rob

 

[steaurtce]

On 09/09/2023 at 20:41, robmanchester said:

This was the wagon clamp I was originally thinking of - just found this pic I have had for years. The company doesn't seem to exist anymore.

 

Rob

 

 

 

HI Rob,

 

Can you send the  dimensions of this item and also a picture showing the insides of this very interesting clamp/jig, any help welcomed.

 

Best Reagrds

 

Steaurt