Why do Hornby make such odd choices?

[nickb4141]

I think Hornby have always made some strange choices, the latest example being the 755 Bi-mode. One livery and a very restricted operating area, suggest these might be heading for the bargain bin pretty quickly. Had they released a Class 120, (with the potential for a Class 119, with a tooling slide for the front ends,) they would have had at least four different liveries to produce and they have worked in England, Scotland and Wales from Cornwall to the Scottish Highlands! The 120 also features high up in the wish lists! Surely releasing something with more liveries and a wide geographic operating area is a safer bet commercially? It isn’t rocket science! Hopefully now a certain someone has left the company, we might see some better decisions made, not just concentrating on personal steam favourites. Hornby do release some cracking models and I’m sure even the most hardened Hornby haters wouldn’t want to see them disappear. 

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I think Hornby have always made some strange choices, the latest example being the 755 Bi-mode. One livery and a very restricted operating area, suggest these might be heading for the bargain bin pretty quickly. Had they released a Class 120, (with the potential for a Class 119, with a tooling slide for the front ends,) they would have had at least four different liveries to produce and they have worked in England, Scotland and Wales from Cornwall to the Scottish Highlands! The 120 also features high up in the wish lists! Surely releasing something with more liveries and a wide geographic operating area is a safer bet commercially? It isn’t rocket science! Hopefully now a certain someone has left the company, we might see some better decisions made, not just concentrating on personal steam favourites. Hornby do release some cracking models and I’m sure even the most hardened Hornby haters wouldn’t want to see them disappear. 

quite, to me the obvious one is Electrostar… its the class 47 of today.

A 755 is akin to making a class 143.. small number limited to a couple of  geos.

 

They do seem to have leaked a sub class in the latest images however suggesting the TFW ones as well.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by adb968008

[G-BOAF]

12 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I think Hornby have always made some strange choices, the latest example being the 755 Bi-mode. One livery and a very restricted operating area, suggest these might be heading for the bargain bin pretty quickly. Had they released a Class 120, (with the potential for a Class 119, with a tooling slide for the front ends,) they would have had at least four different liveries to produce and they have worked in England, Scotland and Wales from Cornwall to the Scottish Highlands! The 120 also features high up in the wish lists! Surely releasing something with more liveries and a wide geographic operating area is a safer bet commercially? It isn’t rocket science! Hopefully now a certain someone has left the company, we might see some better decisions made, not just concentrating on personal steam favourites. Hornby do release some cracking models and I’m sure even the most hardened Hornby haters wouldn’t want to see them disappear. 

But a 120 is a 1st gen dmu, a 755 is a 3gen. Its like saying they shouod have produced an ivatt small atlantic instead of a class 91

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

But a 120 is a 1st gen dmu, a 755 is a 3gen. Its like saying they shouod have produced an ivatt small atlantic instead of a class 91

In Margate making a chimney has always been a priority over an exhaust.

[Great Waterton]

I was always surprised they never did a 155 when they did their 153. I'm not a businessman or an expert on the intricacies of model railway production but to a average person it seemed like a no brainer to me. Granted there have only been a handful of liveries over the years on the 155s but I'm sure they'd have still sold. Even dripping a different livery out every couple of years would've probably lasted them 10 years or so while they peddled out many other 153 variants alongside.

 

And yes I know the Hornby 153 isn't perfect by any means, but my feeling still stands.

 

And as adb968008 mentioned above, the INTERCITY Charter Rake also seems like a massive missed opportunity (for now). Again I'm no expert on things but I *think* the train consisted of Mk1 FOs, Mk1 Restaurants and Mk1 Brakes, plus occasionally some Mk3 Sleepers and I believe I've seen air conditioned Mk2s in some photographs. Presumably it was dependant on where the train was going and for how long etc. Hornby surely have the tooling for all these coaches (or in the very least a close approximation; they'd still sell and let's be honest Hornby have often marketed things that aren't truly accurate) and I can't understand why they haven't made them yet. They must understand that INTERCITY livery sells well by now. I bought the Shildon Mk1 and the colours to my eyes are spot on, so I've been disappointed (so far) that we haven't seen more...

 

Just my thoughts.

[nickb4141]

2 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

But a 120 is a 1st gen dmu, a 755 is a 3gen. Its like saying they shouod have produced an ivatt small atlantic instead of a class 91

The fact that it’s a first generation DMU as opposed to a contemporary DMU is irrelevant. The point I was making was that Hornby have a knack of choosing items of limited appeal, rather than items that have a wide geographic spread and multiple liveries and therefore greater appeal. The 120 DMU is continually high up in the wish lists each year, but has been ignored for more niche items. The same could be said for some of the steam items they have produced, which often end up in the bargain bins!

[BachelorBoy]

Hornby's L&M sheep and horse wagons look pretty awful, and are ridiculously expensive. 

 

Another triumph!

 

 

[Halvarras]

On 24/09/2023 at 11:15, nickb4141 said:

The fact that it’s a first generation DMU as opposed to a contemporary DMU is irrelevant. The point I was making was that Hornby have a knack of choosing items of limited appeal, rather than items that have a wide geographic spread and multiple liveries and therefore greater appeal. The 120 DMU is continually high up in the wish lists each year, but has been ignored for more niche items. The same could be said for some of the steam items they have produced, which often end up in the bargain bins!

If only they'd done the Class 120 40-odd years ago instead of the Class 110, which was great for those modelling the Calder Valley line or to whom a DMU was a DMU was a DMU. Even at the time I thought it was an odd choice when Classes 101, 116 & 120 had a far greater appeal due to that geographical spread - yes they'd already done the 101 (sort of) and Lima's 117 undermined a 116 so those two were highly unlikely, leaving the 120 ripe for the picking. But in Hornby's view this consideration is very often trumped by how a subject looks, and the Class 110 was one of the more attractive-looking 1st Gen DMUs, so that was that. It was the Class 755 of its day I suppose.

 

Had Hornby selected the 120 over the 110 back then it would of course now be 40-odd years old and there would be loud calls for a retool, but the 110 was an impressive model for its day, and think of all the modelling practice we'd have experienced in the meantime doing our own upgrades 😀! I'd have enjoyed creating my requirement, a centre-headcode version without buffet, but I'm not convinced a new RTR model would include this as there were not many such sets and I'd baulk at attacking what would no doubt now be a very expensive model with drills, knives and files then trying to colour-match the paintwork.

 

Oh well.

[2750Papyrus]

On 24/09/2023 at 09:44, adb968008 said:

In Margate making a chimney has always been a priority over an exhaust.

Nothing wrong with that.  Bachmann please note!

[Legend]

On 23/09/2023 at 19:44, nickb4141 said:

I think Hornby have always made some strange choices, the latest example being the 755 Bi-mode. One livery and a very restricted operating area, suggest these might be heading for the bargain bin pretty quickly. Had they released a Class 120, (with the potential for a Class 119, with a tooling slide for the front ends,) they would have had at least four different liveries to produce and they have worked in England, Scotland and Wales from Cornwall to the Scottish Highlands! The 120 also features high up in the wish lists! Surely releasing something with more liveries and a wide geographic operating area is a safer bet commercially? It isn’t rocket science! Hopefully now a certain someone has left the company, we might see some better decisions made, not just concentrating on personal steam favourites. Hornby do release some cracking models and I’m sure even the most hardened Hornby haters wouldn’t want to see them disappear. 

on the other hand I’m quite interested in a 755 using Rule 1 as it’s something completely different . Agree though that a 120 or 119 would be good. Is it as simple as changing the cabs . I would have thought there were other differences? 

[The Stationmaster]

I think we might be seeing some changes in what Hornby come up with as the emphasis switches to Brand Managers' sossing out what the customer wants and putting the money into what has been carefully assessed as likely to make the best return on investment.

 

From the disparity of views on here - let alone the wider world - I do wish them well in deciding what the customer wants and what will give the best return but I think it could well be a better approach nto marketing than what we have seen over the past few years.

[nickb4141]

10 hours ago, Legend said:

on the other hand I’m quite interested in a 755 using Rule 1 as it’s something completely different . Agree though that a 120 or 119 would be good. Is it as simple as changing the cabs . I would have thought there were other differences? 

The differences between the 119’s and 120’s are pretty minimal. BR outsourced the cross country DMU design to GRC&W, as Swindon didn’t have the capacity at the time. The major difference was the cab ends, with GRCW using the standard ‘Derby’ ends and Swindon works using their own cab design. Hornby could possibly also use their Hawksworth coach model, as one was added to some of the Class 119’s to increase their capacity in the early days, with the inserted Hawksworth coach painted in BR Green to match the rest of the unit. I’m sure the 755 will be a lovely model, it’s just I fear it won’t do much to revive Hornby’s fortunes.

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

The differences between the 119’s and 120’s are pretty minimal. BR outsourced the cross country DMU design to GRC&W, as Swindon didn’t have the capacity at the time. The major difference was the cab ends, with GRCW using the standard ‘Derby’ ends and Swindon works using their own cab design. Hornby could possibly also use their Hawksworth coach model, as one was added to some of the Class 119’s to increase their capacity in the early days, with the inserted Hawksworth coach painted in BR Green to match the rest of the unit. I’m sure the 755 will be a lovely model, it’s just I fear it won’t do much to revive Hornby’s fortunes.

There are also some detail differences between the underframe arrangements of the Gloucester and Swindon built vehicles

[Rich_F]

On 23/09/2023 at 22:01, adb968008 said:

quite, to me the obvious one is Electrostar… its the class 47 of today.

A 755 is akin to making a class 143.. small number limited to a couple of  geos.

 

They do seem to have leaked a sub class in the latest images however suggesting the TFW ones as well.

 

 

 

Revolution are allegedly in the R&D stage for an N gauge Electrostar family (according to their website).

 

On 25/09/2023 at 11:45, BachelorBoy said:

Hornby's L&M sheep and horse wagons look pretty awful, and are ridiculously expensive. 

 

Another triumph!

 

 

 

Isn't that Hornby's attitude in general? Poor quality for more than the competitors' prices? "Ducks for cover"

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Rich_F said:

 

Revolution are allegedly in the R&D stage for an N gauge Electrostar family (according to their website).

 

 

Isn't that Hornby's attitude in general? Poor quality for more than the competitors' prices? "Ducks for cover"

 

Hornby's attitude always seems to me to be one of confusion: hence this topic.  When they try they produce very good models indeed. 

[nickb4141]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

There are also some detail differences between the underframe arrangements of the Gloucester and Swindon built vehicles

Yes, but probably a lot less differences than there are in a tooling suite of a Class 37 or Class 47 or a Black 5 or 9F. Certainly nothing insurmountable with models produced nowadays.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Hornby's attitude always seems to me to be one of confusion: hence this topic.  When they try they produce very good models indeed. 

However if the messages coming put of the company - from the top - mean what they say we could well be looking towards some changes with greater customer focus and (somehow) them listening to what customers say rather than listening to themselves.

 

What that means for QC I haven't got a clue but the impression coming over is that new model development will no longer be down to the whim of one person but will actually be based on listening to the market.  Now those are very brave words but they are what is coming out of the company and one can but hope that action will follow words (as some of it is already doing).

[adb968008]

26 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

However if the messages coming put of the company - from the top - mean what they say we could well be looking towards some changes with greater customer focus and (somehow) them listening to what customers say rather than listening to themselves.

 

What that means for QC I haven't got a clue but the impression coming over is that new model development will no longer be down to the whim of one person but will actually be based on listening to the market.  Now those are very brave words but they are what is coming out of the company and one can but hope that action will follow words (as some of it is already doing).

Which market are they listening to though ?

 

Consumers, modellers, retailers, amazon ?

 

Hornby has traditionally existed in a different world to other model railway manufacturers, if they stay in that world, but turn on their speakers, theres potential they go even further from us modellers than they are currently.

 

 

[Johan DC]

This topic can be locked now, here's the answer: 

 

 

[Covkid]

On 24/09/2023 at 09:44, adb968008 said:

In Margate making a chimney has always been a priority over an exhaust.

 

On 25/09/2023 at 13:09, 2750Papyrus said:

Nothing wrong with that.  Bachmann please note!

 

Really cannot agree with that.  I believe Bachmann to be a very comprehensive offerer with a second offering of class 47,  second offering of class 40, a fourth offering of class 37, second offering of 24 and 25 and retrofitting of lights to 20 and 40.  ETC ETC 

 

Bachmann have released a comprehensive selection of mainstream and not so mainstream era wagons for late steam, transition and early privatisation eras. Presflo, covhop, grain, various tank wagons, 16 ton minerals in various designs.  In my view there is little Bachmann have missed.   

[nickb4141]

I think Bachmann are just a lot more switched on as to where the market has been going in the last 20 years. In that respect, they’ve capitalised on the growing importance of the diesel & electric market and have introduced new tooling for the class 37 & 47 to compete head on with the likes of Accurascale and the new generation of model companies. Hornby on the other hand, have chosen to concentrate on predominantly steam based and increasingly niche items, which are quite often finding themselves in the bargain section. Their diesel & electric models are rapidly becoming obsolete by the introduction of much better models, at better value for money. To date their class 31,50,56,60 have all been (or will have been,) surpassed better models, with,no doubt,others to follow. The only models they still ‘lead the pack’ with are the 08,HST,67,87 & 91,755, IET and 4VEP, however some of these are probably on someone else’s radar (including the 153 DMU, rumoured to be announced soon). If Hornby don’t pull their finger out, their D&E range faces becoming obsolete!

Edited October 27, 2023 by nickb4141

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, nickb4141 said:

 If Hornby don’t pull their finger out, their D&E range faces extinction!

It wont face extinction, nothing ever does. Look how Lima has done.

it will just become irrelevant to serious modellers.

if anything it just pushes Hornby closer to places like Hamleys and they simply drop off the radar.

 

it could mean their remaining good stuff may get lost in the mists of time as they focus on a core range of “toy like” stuff.

 

The annual report suggested a new line of “capsule” stuff which suggested it was based on toning down some main range items… that could fit that theme.. 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, Johan DC said:

This topic can be locked now, here's the answer: 

 

 

I dont see any diesels in that image to press the “steam” loco icon for.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by adb968008

[Covkid]

On 25/09/2023 at 19:07, The Stationmaster said:

I think we might be seeing some changes in what Hornby come up with as the emphasis switches to Brand Managers' sossing out what the customer wants and putting the money into what has been carefully assessed as likely to make the best return on investment.

 

From the disparity of views on here - let alone the wider world - I do wish them well in deciding what the customer wants and what will give the best return but I think it could well be a better approach nto marketing than what we have seen over the past few years.

 

Whilst it probably isn't the absolute definitive piece of work, Mr McDermott and the team go to great lengths every two years to create a poll of what people would like to see in 2mm 4mm and 7mm. . Is that not a pretty good list to follow ?    

[BachelorBoy]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

It wont face extinction, nothing ever does. Look how Lima has done.

Yes, even Bassett-Lowke is still alive :-)