Why do Hornby make such odd choices?

[nathan70000]

I got a flyer in a TMC order lately for Hornby A1s/A3s, on special offer at £125 or thereabouts. Excellent value for the consumer, but presumably very bad for Hornby's bottom line since these were the new partially retooled examples.

 

That said looking at the versions they've chosen I can sort of see why they haven't exactly flown off the shelves. Two almost identical LNER green A1s, one A3 in wartime black (never a particularly popular choice) and Flying Scotsman, but in a rather obscure and short lived configuration.

 

Given the popularity of the period I can't believe they didn't choose to issue a BR late crest example. In this period they were used over the Settle and Carlisle so plenty of appeal even to non-LNER modellers.

 

Equally strange is that they didn't take the opportunity to issue an A1 (preferably 4472) in LNER green with the 1928 corridor tender. I'm 100% sure this would have sold like hot cakes and I would have preordered one in this condition had it been offered.

 

There are a number of other configurations and liveries that Hornby have never done despite having the tooling to do so. No GNR 1470 or 1471, no BR purple, no post-war BR apple green.

 

It's not just A3s. Hornby seems oddly adverse to preserved examples of various classes. Surely 926 Repton as preserved would have been a commercially astute choice, as would 61306 Mayflower. Hornby have issued many variations of K1 but not 2005 Lord of the Isles in apple green. You still can't buy a late crest J36!

[micklner]

22 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

I got a flyer in a TMC order lately for Hornby A1s/A3s, on special offer at £125 or thereabouts. Excellent value for the consumer, but presumably very bad for Hornby's bottom line since these were the new partially retooled examples.

 

That said looking at the versions they've chosen I can sort of see why they haven't exactly flown off the shelves. Two almost identical LNER green A1s, one A3 in wartime black (never a particularly popular choice) and Flying Scotsman, but in a rather obscure and short lived configuration.

 

Given the popularity of the period I can't believe they didn't choose to issue a BR late crest example. In this period they were used over the Settle and Carlisle so plenty of appeal even to non-LNER modellers.

 

Equally strange is that they didn't take the opportunity to issue an A1 (preferably 4472) in LNER green with the 1928 corridor tender. I'm 100% sure this would have sold like hot cakes and I would have preordered one in this condition had it been offered.

 

There are a number of other configurations and liveries that Hornby have never done despite having the tooling to do so. No GNR 1470 or 1471, no BR purple, no post-war BR apple green.

 

It's not just A3s. Hornby seems oddly adverse to preserved examples of various classes. Surely 926 Repton as preserved would have been a commercially astute choice, as would 61306 Mayflower. Hornby have issued many variations of K1 but not 2005 Lord of the Isles in apple green. You still can't buy a late crest J36!

Or a post war A4 or W1 in Garter Blue without valances .

 

edit My conversion of Hornby Mallard R2339 to Merlin below.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by micklner

[Halvarras]

32 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

You still can't buy a late crest J36!

 

And AIUI 65288 & 65345 achieved local celebrity status as the last BR steam locos working off Scottish depots, withdrawn 5th June 1967 - not bad going for an 1888 design. I have a few Scottish diesels set in 1967 and could be tempted by one of these myself (preferably 65345 as a March 1967 photo of it alongside D6850 appears in the colour album 'Heyday of the Scottish Diesels', complete with red-painted coupling rods and bufferbeam-mounted snowplough).

 

[scouse889]

43 minutes ago, nathan70000 said:

I got a flyer in a TMC order lately for Hornby A1s/A3s, on special offer at £125 or thereabouts. Excellent value for the consumer, but presumably very bad for Hornby's bottom line since these were the new partially retooled examples.

 

That said looking at the versions they've chosen I can sort of see why they haven't exactly flown off the shelves. Two almost identical LNER green A1s, one A3 in wartime black (never a particularly popular choice) and Flying Scotsman, but in a rather obscure and short lived configuration.

 

Given the popularity of the period I can't believe they didn't choose to issue a BR late crest example. In this period they were used over the Settle and Carlisle so plenty of appeal even to non-LNER modellers.

 

Equally strange is that they didn't take the opportunity to issue an A1 (preferably 4472) in LNER green with the 1928 corridor tender. I'm 100% sure this would have sold like hot cakes and I would have preordered one in this condition had it been offered.

 

There are a number of other configurations and liveries that Hornby have never done despite having the tooling to do so. No GNR 1470 or 1471, no BR purple, no post-war BR apple green.

 

It's not just A3s. Hornby seems oddly adverse to preserved examples of various classes. Surely 926 Repton as preserved would have been a commercially astute choice, as would 61306 Mayflower. Hornby have issued many variations of K1 but not 2005 Lord of the Isles in apple green. You still can't buy a late crest J36!

Presumably it is the bottom line of the retailer that is affected by this and not that of Hornby, as Hornby have already sold the models on to the retailers at whatever price which is then not changed by what the retailer sells it on for?

I have noticed a lot of special offer on this, 30% off that, £10 cash back on something else sales this summer - seems much more than usual. Some significant reductions available at the moment on even rather recent releases. One wonders how indicative this is of the cost of living crisis and the market not supporting ever increasing prices?

[NBL]

There is the option of buying the base model closest to your chosen prototype and creating it yourself.

 

Not only would you support the retailer, you would also support the cottage industries supplying decals/nameplates/detailing parts/paints etc etc

 

Win win all round

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, nathan70000 said:

I got a flyer in a TMC order lately for Hornby A1s/A3s, on special offer at £125 or thereabouts. Excellent value for the consumer, but presumably very bad for Hornby's bottom line since these were the new partially retooled examples.

 

That said looking at the versions they've chosen I can sort of see why they haven't exactly flown off the shelves. Two almost identical LNER green A1s, one A3 in wartime black (never a particularly popular choice) and Flying Scotsman, but in a rather obscure and short lived configuration.

 

Given the popularity of the period I can't believe they didn't choose to issue a BR late crest example. In this period they were used over the Settle and Carlisle so plenty of appeal even to non-LNER modellers.

 

Equally strange is that they didn't take the opportunity to issue an A1 (preferably 4472) in LNER green with the 1928 corridor tender. I'm 100% sure this would have sold like hot cakes and I would have preordered one in this condition had it been offered.

 

There are a number of other configurations and liveries that Hornby have never done despite having the tooling to do so. No GNR 1470 or 1471, no BR purple, no post-war BR apple green.

 

It's not just A3s. Hornby seems oddly adverse to preserved examples of various classes. Surely 926 Repton as preserved would have been a commercially astute choice, as would 61306 Mayflower. Hornby have issued many variations of K1 but not 2005 Lord of the Isles in apple green. You still can't buy a late crest J36!

 

It does seem odd that some people now think a model at £125 is somehow a "bargain bin" buy or a fire sale!

 

As for preserved locomotives. It's been stated quite a few times by the manufacturers that the demand just isn't there for them apart from a few of the big famous engines.

 

One of the reasons they are often Collectors Club models or limited editions.

 

Also worth considering Repton would need a new tender for preservation days. That's probably why they've never done it.

 

 

Jason

[30801]

27 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It does seem odd that some people now think a model at £125 is somehow a "bargain bin" buy or a fire sale!

 

In 2006 I bought a Hornby A4 from Hattons in a sale for £56 which I thought rather a bargain.

The internet tells me that £56 is now worth £103 so I guess £125 isn't too bad.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

As for preserved locomotives. It's been stated quite a few times by the manufacturers that the demand just isn't there for them apart from a few of the big famous engines.

 

One of the reasons they are often Collectors Club models or limited editions

I dont buy that argument.

Lets put this myth to bed….

 

GWR:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/gwr-great-western-railway-including-locomotives-built-before-1927-which-were-taken-into-gwr-stock/
I count 54 made rtr

 

LMS

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lms/

I count 47 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

SR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/sr/
I count 49 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

LNER

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lner/
I count 23 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

BR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/br/
I count 31 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

i know the numbers greater than what I put to, its just a fag pack calc from memory…

in all Railways >50% of whats preserved, and in several cases includes new builds too are done.

Several classes (Manors notably, A4’s..) every preserved example has been done, some more than once.

 

modelling preserved steam is not hard at all, where rtr exists.

 

There are a few obvious gaps that could be filled, but in several cases it could involve money, as the preserved one in its preserved state differs from its BR era state, and as such permission maybe required. The second being a difference that makes it unique (44767, 73129, 35018 or 34046 for instance).

 

out of 400+ Ex-BR steam locos preserved, you could have >200 rtr to buy.. the gaps that exist tend to be around freight locos (GWR 2-8-0/2-8-0T, LNER Goods, Jinties, 8F of which multiples exist).

 

Even Terriers, Panniers, small Prairies and 80xxx are well done with several preserved made rtr.

 

When it comes to class 7/8 express locos coverage is nearly complete, just a few Bulleids, and Castles. You can even buy a Turkish 8F, 90733 or a Vertical boiler departmental loco no54  rtr.

 

Far from it preserved locos dont sell, its the little black freight locos (as always) which the gaps start to appear… preserved or not.

 

What are the big gaps imo..

 

5051/6880/7027 

34016/28/46/72/105, 35009/18

45110/305/407/48624

61264/61306/62005/69621

73129/73156/76017/

 

All of which have made hobby headlines of recent times.

 

apart of the BR Stds, the common denominator is Hornby being the manufacturer decieding not to do them.. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by adb968008

[Fireline]

Be interesting to see what choices Hornby makes going forward, considering who had the final say until recently....

[rogerzilla]

I'm surprised they haven't done a rebuilt WC in Southern sunshine black to annoy the purists and delight the collectors and SVR fans.  It's better than purple!

[Rich_F]

2 hours ago, Fireline said:

Be interesting to see what choices Hornby makes going forward, considering who had the final say until recently....

 

To me it does seem some of the decisions were made on that aforementioned person's personal interests rather than potential customer base.

[MikeParkin65]

15 minutes ago, Rich_F said:

 

To me it does seem some of the decisions were made on that aforementioned person's personal interests rather than potential customer base.

I do recall that when the 2001 version of the Black Five was released and there was no BR Lined black late crest  - surely the most common and desired livery SK said 'they never ran in that condition'.  Don't believe SK meant that at all, what he meant was that he was holding the most popular livery back to maximise repeat sales from the tooling - a methodology that both Hornby and Bachmann have employed over the years and still do. New manufacturers are playing differently with apparently all liveries coming out at once and you do have to wonder whether Hornby needs to up its game in this respect.

 

Problem for manufacturers though is reading our fickle minds - those making, those making the most noise here or at shows dont necessarily translate into multiple sales.

[Legend]

Another one is their inherited Lima Met Camm DMU . The only Blue/Grey one was issued with 4 marker lights on front . Surely a refurbished two marker light one , the normal version, would have been better . Also no white/ blue refurbished livery . 
 

I think in blue era case , there was simply no one in house to advise . They seem very steam centric . Hopefully that has now changed 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, scouse889 said:

Presumably it is the bottom line of the retailer that is affected by this and not that of Hornby, as Hornby have already sold the models on to the retailers at whatever price which is then not changed by what the retailer sells it on for?

I have noticed a lot of special offer on this, 30% off that, £10 cash back on something else sales this summer - seems much more than usual. Some significant reductions available at the moment on even rather recent releases. One wonders how indicative this is of the cost of living crisis and the market not supporting ever increasing prices?

That we don't know.  there is a lot of clearance going on at Hornby at present and this could just as readily be stock that was lying in Hornby's warehouse operator's establishment as something a retailer couldn't clear.   From the price quoted by the OP I suspect that it is more likely stuff that has come from Hornby especially and it will be interestiong to see if it also comes from other retailers.

 

Back to the OP.  Hornby's model railway marketing seems to me to have moved in some very mysterious ways in recent years and they have had some longstanding stockpiles of unsold models which they have tried to clear or offer in special bargain bundles at various times.  If they finish up having to do that then there has clearly been a marketing error - possibly in detail, e.g picking the wrong running number or livery variant. or more seriously picking the wrong thing to make a model of, or quite simply misreading demand.  

 

All of that is really down to not properly understanding the market plus perhaps some examples still of Hornby's old 'Year 2' problem.  The way the new management is moving the brand's on marketing - and presumably investment - imight well be the answe, time will tell.

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont buy that argument.

Lets put this myth to bed….

 

GWR:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/gwr-great-western-railway-including-locomotives-built-before-1927-which-were-taken-into-gwr-stock/
I count 54 made rtr

 

LMS

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lms/

I count 47 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

SR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/sr/
I count 49 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

LNER

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lner/
I count 23 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

BR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/br/
I count 31 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

i know the numbers greater than what I put to, its just a fag pack calc from memory…

in all Railways >50% of whats preserved, and in several cases includes new builds too are done.

Several classes (Manors notably, A4’s..) every preserved example has been done, some more than once.

 

modelling preserved steam is not hard at all, where rtr exists.

 

There are a few obvious gaps that could be filled, but in several cases it could involve money, as the preserved one in its preserved state differs from its BR era state, and as such permission maybe required. The second being a difference that makes it unique (44767, 73129, 35018 or 34046 for instance).

 

out of 400+ Ex-BR steam locos preserved, you could have >200 rtr to buy.. the gaps that exist tend to be around freight locos (GWR 2-8-0/2-8-0T, LNER Goods, Jinties, 8F of which multiples exist).

 

Even Terriers, Panniers, small Prairies and 80xxx are well done with several preserved made rtr.

 

When it comes to class 7/8 express locos coverage is nearly complete, just a few Bulleids, and Castles. You can even buy a Turkish 8F, 90733 or a Vertical boiler departmental loco no54  rtr.

 

Far from it preserved locos dont sell, its the little black freight locos (as always) which the gaps start to appear… preserved or not.

 

What are the big gaps imo..

 

5051/6880/7027 

34016/28/46/72/105, 35009/18

45110/305/407/48624

61264/61306/62005/69621

73129/73156/76017/

 

All of which have made hobby headlines of recent times.

 

apart of the BR Stds, the common denominator is Hornby being the manufacturer decieding not to do them.. 

 

 

 

Are they all in preserved condition though?

 

Most of them aren't, just because it's the same locomotive doesn't mean it's as preserved,  and as I said most are limited editions released in small numbers.

 

Limited Edition of 9400 and Boxhill were still in stock ages after being released. 2516, Green Arrow and Hardwicke are seemingly still plentiful.

 

https://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusives/steam-locomotives

 

They just don't sell.

 

 

Jason

[MikeParkin65]

30 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Are they all in preserved condition though?

 

Most of them aren't, just because it's the same locomotive doesn't mean it's as preserved,  and as I said most are limited editions released in small numbers.

 

Limited Edition of 9400 and Boxhill were still in stock ages after being released. 2516, Green Arrow and Hardwicke are seemingly still plentiful.

 

https://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusives/steam-locomotives

 

They just don't sell.

 

 

Jason

Yet DP1 (multiple runs) , 34051 (twice), 506 and 46229 all quite hard to get and command a premium second hand

[adb968008]

41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Are they all in preserved condition though?

 

you never said that.

And agree that can be subject to vagaries.

Didnt affect sales of 70013 though.

Accurate preserved (both prototype and model) do seem to do quite well.

Where its a fluffy rendition I agree purists stay away from both.

 

41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Most of them aren't, just because it's the same locomotive doesn't mean it's as preserved,  and as I said most are limited editions released in small numbers.

 

Limited Edition of 9400 and Boxhill were still in stock ages after being released. 2516, Green Arrow and Hardwicke are seemingly still plentiful.

 

https://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusives/steam-locomotives

 

They just don't sell.

 

 

Jason

I’ll raise you…

 

Any preserved pacific…, even the Bulleids… 34092 will set you back quite a lot. Any Bluebell loco seems to reach for the skies too. Try finding a purple 34027 in a bargain bin.

 

You have to look at reasons why specific ones dont sell…. 2516.. just another goods 0-6-0.. it shares the same spot as all the others. Hardwicke with a white roof as no one ever saw it run. Green Arrow… its been modelled at least 5 times.. just because the latest one is over priced doesnt mean the others were not good sellers.

 

But making the number, sells… if it was so bad, why is there over 200 of them made, there would be just a handful.

 

The model of Lion only exists because of its preservation antics. If it werent preserved, no one would know anything about it.

Edited September 19, 2023 by adb968008

[Standards_in_OO]

I imagine that to model a preserved example of a loco then there may need to be some form of licence agreement with the owner like with the Dublo Flying Scotsman etc. Although this may be a price worth paying as locos that still exist and people see are probably more likely to sell. Look at Erlestoke Manor and 1501 15xx from Rapido which looks to be the only version selling out. 
I would expect Hornby to capitalise on the FS with the white roof in current condition as a Dublo model next year. Seems to be the case in previous years that generic BR black locos end up in the bargain bins so maybe less of this in the future. I would buy a green K1 in a heartbeat though! 

[G-BOAF]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I dont buy that argument.

Lets put this myth to bed….

 

GWR:

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/gwr-great-western-railway-including-locomotives-built-before-1927-which-were-taken-into-gwr-stock/
I count 54 made rtr

 

LMS

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lms/

I count 47 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

SR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/sr/
I count 49 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

LNER

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/lner/
I count 23 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

BR

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/br/
I count 31 made rtr, some numbers repeated several times.

 

i know the numbers greater than what I put to, its just a fag pack calc from memory…

in all Railways >50% of whats preserved, and in several cases includes new builds too are done.

Several classes (Manors notably, A4’s..) every preserved example has been done, some more than once.

 

modelling preserved steam is not hard at all, where rtr exists.

 

There are a few obvious gaps that could be filled, but in several cases it could involve money, as the preserved one in its preserved state differs from its BR era state, and as such permission maybe required. The second being a difference that makes it unique (44767, 73129, 35018 or 34046 for instance).

 

out of 400+ Ex-BR steam locos preserved, you could have >200 rtr to buy.. the gaps that exist tend to be around freight locos (GWR 2-8-0/2-8-0T, LNER Goods, Jinties, 8F of which multiples exist).

 

Even Terriers, Panniers, small Prairies and 80xxx are well done with several preserved made rtr.

 

When it comes to class 7/8 express locos coverage is nearly complete, just a few Bulleids, and Castles. You can even buy a Turkish 8F, 90733 or a Vertical boiler departmental loco no54  rtr.

 

Far from it preserved locos dont sell, its the little black freight locos (as always) which the gaps start to appear… preserved or not.

 

What are the big gaps imo..

 

5051/6880/7027 

34016/28/46/72/105, 35009/18

45110/305/407/48624

61264/61306/62005/69621

73129/73156/76017/

 

All of which have made hobby headlines of recent times.

 

apart of the BR Stds, the common denominator is Hornby being the manufacturer decieding not to do them.. 

 

 

There is also the question of modelling preserved locos in preserved condition, accurately in terms of detail combinations either available within tooling, or expanding the tooling suite.

Arguably 35028 Clan Line has not ever been modelled in its current condition (with modified/enlarged coal space)

 

The sole B12, 8572/61572 has not been modelled by Hornby, despite the potential to offer it as a 'retro triang' edition with special packaging.

 

In terms of Terriers, Hornby have (strangely) not yet chosen to model Terrier 55 Stepney in its preserved condition, despite it basically being Ex-BR condition with LBSCR livery (and very similar to Brighton Works model that was released, except that had an Air Pump). Ditto 72 Fenchurch in her current condition (although I'm not sure if the A1 cosmetics + A1X boiler is possible in the tooling suite).

 

 

 

[Coldgunner]

19 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

In 2006 I bought a Hornby A4 from Hattons in a sale for £56 which I thought rather a bargain.

The internet tells me that £56 is now worth £103 so I guess £125 isn't too bad.

I bought the Bachmann 'C' Class 592 for £75 from Hattons once, maybe 8-10 years ago not long after the C class came out. Same model goes on Ebay for £300 (or so I've seen). I miss the days of the <£100 high detail/main range model.

[JonathonAG]

I recently completed a K1 as No. 2005 in preserved 90's condition.  It certainly went well over on the 'gram, and many questions raised by others as to why Hornby does seem to shy away from preserved examples in releases.

 

[GMKAT7]

Good evening folks,

I for one am glad Hornby did make all those nondescript 0-6-0 tender locos, having ended up with examples of the Q1, 700 and J15 classes at a bargain price (most were around the £60 mark). I would never have built kits for all of those.

I also have a number of Bachmann black locos as well, such as 8750s (2), C class, ROD 30xx, so it is not just Hornby with the unfashionable goods locos. I am hoping some of the other 'mundane ' types also still make the clearance lines.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[PeterStiles]

For every "strange" loco Hornby produce, there was _someone_ on these forums harping on about "why doesn't someone produce 'X' it'll sell like hotcakes" for a couple of years...

[adb968008]

Of all locos I would love an LYR 0-6-0, 23,25,27 class like 52322 and the similar larger version 52044.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/3f-between-52088-52529-0-6-0-lyr-aspinall-class-27/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/2f-52016-52064-0-6-0-lyr-barton-wright-class-25/
 

The lined LYR is a lovely livery, and there was hundreds of them, until the early 1960’s.

LYR 1300 has toured the country extensively.

 

But lets be honest.. it too is a little black 0-6-0, no one Southern, GWR, LNE or Scottish is going to want it. Even most LMS fans would only buy 1 (plain lms black) and BR M fans would probably buy the two most well known.. 52322 and 52515, which have differences.
 

The rest of the interest would be in 1300 in Lined LYR livery as preserved…, or 52044 or  11456, so unless the preserved ones had enough legs to pay for it, the investment may struggle... this would test the little black 0-6-0s dont sell vs preserved locos dont sell argument.

 

 

 

[MattR]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Of all locos I would love an LYR 0-6-0, 23,25,27 class like 52322 and the similar larger version 52044.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/3f-between-52088-52529-0-6-0-lyr-aspinall-class-27/

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/2f-52016-52064-0-6-0-lyr-barton-wright-class-25/
 

The lined LYR is a lovely livery, and there was hundreds of them, until the early 1960’s.

LYR 1300 has toured the country extensively.

 

But lets be honest.. it too is a little black 0-6-0, no one Southern, GWR, LNE or Scottish is going to want it. Even most LMS fans would only buy 1 (plain lms black) and BR M fans would probably buy the two most well known.. 52322 and 52515, which have differences.
 

The rest of the interest would be in 1300 in Lined LYR livery as preserved…, or 52044 or  11456, so unless the preserved ones had enough legs to pay for it, the investment may struggle... this would test the little black 0-6-0s dont sell vs preserved locos dont sell argument.

 

 

 

 

I'd love to see one of those as well, in L&YR livery. My fictional preserved railway layout includes L&YR, and I really need an L&YR goods locomotive. But I agree I'll probably never see one of them in RTR.