Why do Hornby make such odd choices?

[E100]

1 hour ago, JonathonAG said:

I recently completed a K1 as No. 2005 in preserved 90's condition.  It certainly went well over on the 'gram, and many questions raised by others as to why Hornby does seem to shy away from preserved examples in releases.

 

I emailed Simon about this and he wasn’t too keen saying the K1 hadn’t sold well but one of the senior development guys on the stand at Model Rail Scotland thought it was a great shout based on the J36 green livery being popular.

[scouse889]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That we don't know.  there is a lot of clearance going on at Hornby at present and this could just as readily be stock that was lying in Hornby's warehouse operator's establishment as something a retailer couldn't clear.   From the price quoted by the OP I suspect that it is more likely stuff that has come from Hornby especially and it will be interestiong to see if it also comes from other retailers.

 

Back to the OP.

 

The OP mentioned a flyer from The Model Centre, so not stock direct from Hornby.

 

On 18/09/2023 at 20:05, nathan70000 said:

I got a flyer in a TMC order lately for Hornby A1s/A3s, on special offer at £125 or thereabouts. Excellent value for the consumer, but presumably very bad for Hornby's bottom line since these were the new partially retooled examples.

 

e.g., https://www.themodelcentre.com/r3989-Hornby-oo-gauge-1-76-scale-lner-a1-class-2564-knight-of-thistle-diecast-footplate-and-flickering-firebox-era-3-new-tooling, for £126.49, or 50% off MRP.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by scouse889

[Butler Henderson]

52 minutes ago, E100 said:

I emailed Simon about this and he wasn’t too keen saying the K1 hadn’t sold well but one of the senior development guys on the stand at Model Rail Scotland thought it was a great shout based on the J36 green livery being popular.

The K1 didn't sell well as Hornby flooded the market with them; far too many made in too short a time. To do 2005 / 62005 correctly I understand a tooling tweak would,be needed but even so I would think apple green 2005s would quickly sell - assuming of course Hornby get the shade of green right. Maybe without SK at the helm.

[nightstar.train]

18 minutes ago, scouse889 said:

 

The OP mentioned a flyer from The Model Centre, so not stock direct from Hornby.

 

 

e.g., https://www.themodelcentre.com/r3989-Hornby-oo-gauge-1-76-scale-lner-a1-class-2564-knight-of-thistle-diecast-footplate-and-flickering-firebox-era-3-new-tooling, 50% off MRP.

 

 

Yes but it's known that Hornby will flog off their stock cheap to retailers if its been sitting in the warehouse too long. Below the usual retailer price. That's why you end up with these sudden stock clearances at the big box shifters, they've bought a load cheap from Hornby. I think that's also happening more currently as Hornby no longer own their warehouse. they pay a logistics company to manage all that. So not only do they have money already spent tied up in stock that isn't shifting, it's actively costing them money every month. 

[locoholic]

I still can't believe that Hornby have never made the J15 0-6-0 in the Great Eastern blue livery that it had for a while at Sheringham. I though Simon Kohler was a big fan of blue locomotives?

 

I'm still waiting for a BR black M7 with the front sandboxes below the running plate - they look so different from the usual M7s - I believe only an SR olive green one has ever been produced. Similarly, I don't think a BR late crest Schools with original chimney has ever been made using the new tooling.

 

I always wish they'd do a set of Black 5s in the liveries tried out by BR soon after nationalisation, too.

 

And as for the late crest J36...

[Halvarras]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

Another one is their inherited Lima Met Camm DMU . The only Blue/Grey one was issued with 4 marker lights on front . Surely a refurbished two marker light one , the normal version, would have been better . Also no white/ blue refurbished livery . 
 

I think in blue era case , there was simply no one in house to advise . They seem very steam centric . Hopefully that has now changed 

 

The 101 did cause me some extra work, but then I wanted a model of one of the first ones repainted into blue/grey livery in 1974 still with 2-character headcode panels (P802-4) - I was always going to have to add those myself, but could have done so without having to repaint the entire yellow ends. Were there any blue/grey 101s with four marker lights in reality?

 

Re your second point, perhaps this was why their first 'hi-fi' Class 08 release in green livery sported deleted D prefixes and TOPS data panels (3256) - good for those few modellers who prefer roughly 1969 - 1973 but inappropriate for the hugely popular Transition Era. It's not even as if they left enough space to add your own Ds!

 

[pH]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Of all locos I would love an LYR 0-6-0

…

But lets be honest.. it too is a little black 0-6-0, no one Southern, GWR, LNE or Scottish is going to want it. 

 

There would be a very flimsy excuse for one on a West of Scotland layout. 52275 was scrapped at Campbell’s at Shieldhall in 1963:

 

https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=406043218&type=S&loco=52275

 

I have no idea why it would be sent there after being withdrawn from Oldham. There used to a picture on the web of it on Hurlford shed, but I can’t find it now.

[ColinB]

2 hours ago, nightstar.train said:

 

Yes but it's known that Hornby will flog off their stock cheap to retailers if its been sitting in the warehouse too long. Below the usual retailer price. That's why you end up with these sudden stock clearances at the big box shifters, they've bought a load cheap from Hornby. I think that's also happening more currently as Hornby no longer own their warehouse. they pay a logistics company to manage all that. So not only do they have money already spent tied up in stock that isn't shifting, it's actively costing them money every month. 

I didn't realise about the warehouse, that is definitely outsourcing taken to the limit. I just think Hornby locos are just too expensive, so people are not buying them. People on the Hornby site keep telling me that they are not but this summer I have so far picked up an APT and the two A1 for bargain prices, so if they were that desirable why are they selling them cheap. I don't see Accurascale locos being substantially reduced if anything it seems if you don't pre order it you will be disappointed. The A1s I picked up are really good locos but probably not worth £260 (their original price), same could be said of the APT, so perhaps that is what everyone else is thinking. I imagine Bachmann are having similar issues with their retooled class 37s.

[DCB]

On 18/09/2023 at 20:09, micklner said:

Or a post war A4 or W1 in Garter Blue without valances .

 

edit My conversion of Hornby Mallard R2339 to Merlin below.

Looks good but that is a heck of an expensive canvas to work your magic on.    Its the obvious inaccuracies in these expensive status cymbals which wind me up Surely the tender should match the loco, not tower over it like the various Hornby LNER 8 wheelers do.  Hope to get some photos of Sir Nigel at the weekend to illustrate how an A4 relates to its tender.

[Darius43]

3 hours ago, DCB said:

It’s the obvious inaccuracies in these expensive status cymbals which wind me up

Expensive cymbals.  I hate expensive cymbals.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

[Standards_in_OO]

The same can be said for coaches as well, lots of odd one off liveries that have been released recently but not as many of the liveries people actually need to form a rake. Also the Intercity MK1s have ended up in the bargain bins, several buffets released and a brake in Charter livery with a white roof but no further coaches to match. I’m sure more would have been sold if there were other matching versions. 

[E100]

3 hours ago, Standards_in_OO said:

The same can be said for coaches as well, lots of odd one off liveries that have been released recently but not as many of the liveries people actually need to form a rake. Also the Intercity MK1s have ended up in the bargain bins, several buffets released and a brake in Charter livery with a white roof but no further coaches to match. I’m sure more would have been sold if there were other matching versions. 

 

That's it. The market is increasingly demanding realistic rakes and loco's to match hence why the likes of Accurascale are doing well. Hornby would do well to learn and pick 'trains' to produce over a couple of years to avoid the sell-offs. By the same token so could Bachmann with the TSO's.

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Standards_in_OO said:

The same can be said for coaches as well, lots of odd one off liveries that have been released recently but not as many of the liveries people actually need to form a rake. Also the Intercity MK1s have ended up in the bargain bins, several buffets released and a brake in Charter livery with a white roof but no further coaches to match. I’m sure more would have been sold if there were other matching versions. 

There definitely was some odd choices in some mk1’s… that plain blue buffet was odd, the loram coaches arent exactly well known.

Just because it could be produced, doesnt mean it should be produced.

 

A rake of white roof intercity mk1’s would have been very nice, though admittedly ive upgraded my Replica ones with newer bogies, metal wheels (with white rims) and added curtain outlines and painted interiors.

for circa £10 on ebay, a few marker pens and some metal wheels these scrub up quite nice..

before and after..

 

 

 

Why did Hornby only make the bck ?

i can only guess the difference between being professional and being in the hobby… the BCK is preserved at Shildon, so it ticks the box, but lacks the wider vision of why the coach is preserved.

To me it highlights the gulf between the company and its customers.

 

A new CRM tool wont fix this… it risks being  seen as an odd ball coach thats not the best seller and not do any more… and hence the baby goes with the bathwater. A wider vision could see a forth coming class 89 and capitalise on it, but I dont see that kind of computer intelligence in a bespoke IT consultancy.

 

My fear is in the future Hornby could do a boatymcboatface….  If hundreds of people emailed asking for the Paget locomotive… they might do one by blindly following demand logic in an algorithm, and validating it against the current plethora of one off prototypes coming to the market, without putting any real thought into why selected ones are being made.

 

Lets see what this new “capsule” range is all about, but i’ve not got high confidence.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

15 hours ago, JonathonAG said:

I recently completed a K1 as No. 2005 in preserved 90's condition.  It certainly went well over on the 'gram, and many questions raised by others as to why Hornby does seem to shy away from preserved examples in releases.

 

Stunning. Quite, quite beautiful. I associate the announcement of the K1 with the crushing diappointment I felt when I realised it was a Peppercorn  and not a Gresley. Nevertheless, I got one and it is a nice model. After WWII, the LNER announced that it intended to paint all locos green but shortages meant that some classes only got one example painted green. Bachmann has made darned sure that the solitary K3, for example, appeared in green. Pep’s K1s didn’t manage even one. A preservation-only livery might have stretched things a bit but I think quite a few people, includng myself, would have gone along with the stretch. You never know, the appearance of a green one might even have kindled more interest in the black ones.

Edited September 20, 2023 by No Decorum
Spelling. Where did the spell checker go?

[MikeParkin65]

15 hours ago, JonathonAG said:

I recently completed a K1 as No. 2005 in preserved 90's condition.  It certainly went well over on the 'gram, and many questions raised by others as to why Hornby does seem to shy away from preserved examples in releases.

 

Wheres the 'wow' button when you need it? Stunning paint job

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

A preservation-only livery might have stretched things a bit but I think quite a few people, includng myself, would have gone along with the stretch.

 

It's an obvious and inexplicably missed easy goal.  For those concerned with accuracy, 2005 ran on the main line during the 1970s and 80s in her green livery, but many would just see an LNER loco in the 'proper' LNER livery.  Hornby do LNER green rather well, too.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

It's an obvious and inexplicably missed easy goal.  For those concerned with accuracy, 2005 ran on the main line during the 1970s and 80s in her green livery, but many would just see an LNER loco in the 'proper' LNER livery.  Hornby do LNER green rather well, too.

i think that ship has unfortunately sailed .

 

The K1 is a lovely model, I bought armfulls, they were £50 at their cheapest… about 6 numbers to go at.

They run really well and are fantastically detailed.

 

The B1 is just as good, but selective production meant it never crashed to the bottom of the bargain bin.. c£70 was the lowest I paid.

However retail was £140 back then.

 

if they made a 2005 now, whats the price going to be £249 ?.. thats about what I paid for 5.

 

Quick look on ebay suggests s/h there only about £60-80 now… tbh at that price why not buy one and have a go repainting it ? If it all goes south you’d still get £20 for the tender, £10 for the box, and £30 for the chassis so you lose about a tenner.

Edited September 20, 2023 by adb968008

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I think that ship has unfortunately sailed .

 

That's what the thread is about - missed opportunities.  Perhaps if some of the run had been green they would have sold it at a better price.

 

I agree it's a lovely model and I was very tempted even though I have no use for one.  

[adb968008]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

That's what the thread is about - missed opportunities.  Perhaps if some of the run had been green they would have sold it at a better price.

 

I agree it's a lovely model and I was very tempted even though I have no use for one.  

The club edition of the B1 in LNER Green (61310) also failed to make the grade, ended up in bargain basements.

if it had been 61306 it may have done better, but as it was the timing was perfect to 61306’s mainline return.. and yet the model still failed.

 

£79 some places… and yet it was the only one in BR green Hornby made, and again, a fantastic model.

 

if that failed I can see why they didnt bother with 2005.

 

tbh ive never bought into the LNER steam craze. I know some love it, but most of em have ended in the bargain bins, as we are seeing currently with the latest round. Its easy for me to say not being my core interest, but it would seem its not everyone elses either, as all those various J’s have shown from all manufacturers bargain bins…

 

its that or the buyers have become too savvy and have no issue playing the waiting game on price.

Edited September 20, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, E100 said:

I emailed Simon about this and he wasn’t too keen saying the K1 hadn’t sold well but one of the senior development guys on the stand at Model Rail Scotland thought it was a great shout based on the J36 green livery being popular.

And there, I suspect, is the answer to the OP's question.  That fact that the black one didn't sell well is irrelevant to how well a green one will do.  The only relevant question being will the green one do well enough to justify the expenditure on livery design and return a profit?

 

15 hours ago, ColinB said:

I didn't realise about the warehouse, that is definitely outsourcing taken to the limit. I just think Hornby locos are just too expensive, so people are not buying them. People on the Hornby site keep telling me that they are not but this summer I have so far picked up an APT and the two A1 for bargain prices, so if they were that desirable why are they selling them cheap. I don't see Accurascale locos being substantially reduced if anything it seems if you don't pre order it you will be disappointed. The A1s I picked up are really good locos but probably not worth £260 (their original price), same could be said of the APT, so perhaps that is what everyone else is thinking. I imagine Bachmann are having similar issues with their retooled class 37s.

They sell them off for a variety of reasons as I outlined previously but teh simple answer is r that they have unsold models costing them not only warehousing fees but also acting as a drain on the bottom line in their accounts because they are part of 'inventory'.  Hence they offer models at reduced prices to the retail trade in otrder to cut costs.

 

The simple reason why they weren't sold originally is because they got their marketing wrong and made too many.  But ften it is more complex than that such as mismatches in number made of the different types of coaching stock which ran in fixed rakes or even simpler such as making the wrong HST power car livery for a contemporaneous release of HST vehicles.

[Fireline]

19 hours ago, E100 said:

I emailed Simon about this and he wasn’t too keen saying the K1 hadn’t sold well but one of the senior development guys on the stand at Model Rail Scotland thought it was a great shout based on the J36 green livery being popular.

 

Funny that. What do the J15, K1 and 42xx/52xx have in common? If memory serves, they were all designed in the time that SK was off doing other things..... Ditto Duke of Gloucester, which had one run only.

[nathan70000]

9 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The club edition of the B1 in LNER Green (61310) also failed to make the grade, ended up in bargain basements.

if it had been 61306 it may have done better, but as it was the timing was perfect to 61306’s mainline return.. and yet the model still failed.

 

£79 some places… and yet it was the only one in BR green Hornby made, and again, a fantastic model.

 

if that failed I can see why they didnt bother with 2005.

 

tbh ive never bought into the LNER steam craze. I know some love it, but most of em have ended in the bargain bins, as we are seeing currently with the latest round. Its easy for me to say not being my core interest, but it would seem its not everyone elses either, as all those various J’s have shown from all manufacturers bargain bins…

 

its that or the buyers have become too savvy and have no issue playing the waiting game on price.

I think modellers have definitely become savvy to the "release undesirable liveries first and the popular ones later" trick. It's not just LNER steam, Hornby have misjudged the demand for many items. Someone brought up all the random obscure coach liveries they've done. For what it's worth, I think the issue with the K1, J15, 700, 42xx etc. is that they flooded the market with them and to be honest, they did all sell eventually. I don't think it's a bad idea to have reasonably affordable, fairly anonymous black 0-6-0s continously available as they're ideal starter locos and the bread and butter of steam era layouts. Something like a J15 is far more representative of a "typical" British steam locomotive than an A3.

 

Despite what some people say I reckon they'd be even bigger trouble if they started focusing on modern era EMUs and DMUs etc. They just don't inspire people in the same way- young people entering the hobby if anything seem to prefer the pre-war or pre-grouping period. And god forbid we get every manufacturer coming out with the "ultimate" Class 37, Class 47 every year...

[1E BoY]

On 19/09/2023 at 21:29, locoholic said:

I still can't believe that Hornby have never made the J15 0-6-0 in the Great Eastern blue livery that it had for a while at Sheringham. I though Simon Kohler was a big fan of blue locomotives?

 

I believe Bachmann had agreements in place with the M&GNR Society and the North Norfolk Railway to produce the J15 and were due to contribute to its restoration. The late Merl Evans and a colleague measured and photographed it well before the Hornby model appeared under the radar. As the only J15 has been in North Norfolk since it left BR service and no one from Hornby had asked or been given access to it, it can only be assumed, therefore, that Hornby had perhaps researched it many years previously and had sat on the information or had sourced it from elsewhere. There were two pictures of Merl Evans on top of the locomotive at Weybourne which were published in the Bachmann Collectors Club magazine (Spring 2014 Page 5) in conjunction with his retirement from Bachmann. Although it does not say which locomotive Merl is on top of, it does mention the photographs were taken on the North Norfolk Railway, the front cab windows giving the game away that it was the J15 to those familiar with the prototype. These were taken just before the locomotive entered Weybourne Works.

 

Obviously the Hornby announcement brought such plans to a swift halt. The research and design work was, I understand, all that was wasted.

 

This picture of 564 was taken away from Norfolk during a visit to the Severn Valley Railway steam gala in September (22-24) 2017. It was photographed at Kidderminster.

 

[Johan DC]

I quite like the J15's, but why they made 4 LNER versions of these, and not a single LNER version of the J36 (only a L&NER one) is really strange. I have a early BR one of the later to renumber, but I'm afraid to tackle the numberplate on the smokebox. 

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, 1E BoY said:

 

I believe Bachmann had agreements in place with the M&GNR Society and the North Norfolk Railway to produce the J15 and were due to contribute to its restoration. The late Merl Evans and a colleague measured and photographed it well before the Hornby model appeared under the radar. As the only J15 has been in North Norfolk since it left BR service and no one from Hornby had asked or been given access to it, it can only be assumed, therefore, that Hornby had perhaps researched it many years previously and had sat on the information or had sourced it from elsewhere. There were two pictures of Merl Evans on top of the locomotive at Weybourne which were published in the Bachmann Collectors Club magazine (Spring 2014 Page 5) in conjunction with his retirement from Bachmann. Although it does not say which locomotive Merl is on top of, it does mention the photographs were taken on the North Norfolk Railway, the front cab windows giving the game away that it was the J15 to those familiar with the prototype. These were taken just before the locomotive entered Weybourne Works.

 

Obviously the Hornby announcement brought such plans to a swift halt. The research and design work was, I understand, all that was wasted.

 

This picture of 564 was taken away from Norfolk during a visit to the Severn Valley Railway steam gala in September (22-24) 2017. It was photographed at Kidderminster.

 

 

Stepping on toes seems all to common.

 

Hornby mag once had a picture of 9400 at Swindon with a measuring stick, and GWR 0-6-0ST 813 appeared in another.

 

Of course it could also be smoke and mirrors where one learns of another's plans.

 

I do wonder what the next few years will bring, i’m sure the manufacturers are cogniscent on consumer pricing sentiment just as much as they feel the pains of rising costs. The trip wire for balancing is getting tighter, as interest rates rise (where models are funded by borrowing)… All of that will damper enthusiasm for “risky” marginal models…

 

I dunno what that actually means in the short term.. is it less toolings, reduced detail, less models, more re-runs, gap filling who knows.

 

Odd choices, sometimes theyve been good bets.. its a hobby of all things.