Lionel 3 Rail O Scale - Why still so popular in the US?

[Jeff Smith]

2 hours ago, PMP said:

I think this is a massive part of it, it’s sort of American heritage, aruabky becoming folklore, Route 66, Marlboro Man, waisted glass Coca-Cola bottles and Santa Fe streamliners all have that good Americana vibe.

I think you can add Harley-davidson to that list!

[jjb1970]

What's the attraction of any hobby? Why are people interested in railways? Why do people like models? Why are people passionate about music? The list goes on.

 

People have their own interests, passions and reasons for indulging in hobbies, interests etc. Some happily embraces the hobby as toy trains and are not looking for maximum fidelity to prototype, they want to have fun. For some I've no doubt it is about nostalgia. Some no doubt just like them as objects. There are collectors. There's an infinite number of possibilities.

 

There's still a following for retro tin plate and coarse O in Britain and I find the models charming, it always strikes me as a rather lovely hobby. 

[BR60103]

4 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I can’t remember why it’s called 027. When I initially read about it it sounded like a name for a specially-gauged British NG scale (like 09, 014, 016.5, 021 etc.) but of course it isn’t that. Is the ‘27’ something to do with the curve radius?

O27 was supposed to be the junior brother of full O gauge. The 27 was the width of a circle of track measured over the outside of the ties (sleepers).  Knocking off the 1" from the edge of the tie to the centre rail, the nominal radius is 12.5".

Regular O was 31". There were wider curves of 42" and 72" which were specified while the 31" wasn't.

 

My wife's new style track is 18" radius (haven't measured it exactly) My Tri-Ang Big Big Train won't run on it; I think it needs 2 feet.

 

[BR60103]

duplicated

Edited October 19, 2023 by BR60103
duplicate

[Jeff Smith]

Collecting rare out of production items is one thing but Lionel products are still in production and are available in retailers and on line......  Imagine if Hornby Dublo or Triang was still in production complete with tin three rail or Super 4 track!  This would be the equivalent.

[Nearholmer]

It might be a good idea for people in this thread to get hold of a copy of Classic Toy Trains, to get an idea of the breadth of what goes on within 3-rail 0 in the states.

 

It isn’t all tinplate, in fact it’s heavily dominated by plastic, because the US makers  want largely that way postwar, so the tin stuff is mostly genuinely old, or modern reproduction (they don’t seem to have the ‘revivalist’ strand that we do here from firms such as Ace, which gives us a lot of modern tinplate and ‘giant Horby Dublo’). It isn’t all 8x4 layouts with a million operating accessories, although there are plenty like that, and big versions of the same (80x40?), there are various degrees of train realism, and scenic realism, extending to “very” in both cases. It is a broad church. A barely comprehensible church from this side of the Atlantic, but a broad one.

The loco on the left is modern US 0, and apart from the wheels and current collection, it’s more or less ‘finescale’, so this one is at the ‘very’ end of the scale. It’s a truly superb runner too. This one is largely diecast construction. The 4F behind it is modern tinplate.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Jeff Smith]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The 4F behind it is modern tinplate.

Produced where?

[Nearholmer]

In the Czech Republic by ETS, who are one of the key suppliers to Ace and other ‘commissioners’ in this country, France, and Germany. ETS do sell into the USA, but not in a big way, and I’m not aware that they’ve ever been commissioned to produce anything by a US firm.

 

https://www.ets.cz/en/

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Hroth]

18 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

In the Czech Republic by ETS, who are one of the key suppliers to Ace and other ‘commissioners’ in this country, France, and Germany. ETS do sell into the USA, but not in a big way, and I’m not aware that they’ve ever been commissioned to produce anything by a US firm.

 

https://www.ets.cz/en/

 

 

 

Are they the company that produced the Retro Hornby locos for the Centenary year?

 

I like the Retro set in the wooden box!

 

[Nearholmer]

They are.

 

There was until recently another Czech maker of tinplate trains, and crucially for those who use it, tinplate track of the old kind, but they seem to have at least partially withdrawn from this niche market to focus on their main (and very contrasting) lines: what amounts to traditional Meccano; and, very modern educational robotics.

[MattR]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Songs like Jawn Henry, Take this Hammer, Rock Island Line, Midnight Special, Wreck of the old 97 are deeply ingrained and known by every schoolchild. 

 

More like "every schoolchild 50+ years ago". I'm 44 and we never learned these songs in school.

[TinTracks]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

 

More like "every schoolchild 50+ years ago". I'm 44 and we never learned these songs in school.

 Me and the ''lads'' still play those songs on a regular basis. Meet up in a local pub once a week. 

 Mind you at  70 years old I'm by far the youngest in the band! 😅

 Regards (Rockin') Rich

[MattR]

6 minutes ago, TinTracks said:

 Me and the ''lads'' still play those songs on a regular basis. Meet up in a local pub once a week. 

 Mind you at  70 years old I'm by far the youngest in the band! 😅

 Regards (Rockin') Rich

 

While they're not school standards anymore, you do find they're introduced pretty early on when you learn to play guitar, however!

[Welchester]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 American RTR developed differently to ours, because of their higher disposable income and large house-footprint basements, and H0 morphed into those gigantic multi-level systems with several scale miles of run, usually with imtressive pressles or something, islands and peninsulas, and 100-car trains, which often on examination boil down to a single track tailchaser with loops in places. 

 

A (Facebook) friend of mine, a Greek Orthodox priest in the US, models British outline in 4mm. His 48' x 28' basement contains Severn Tunnel Junction in all its glory

[The Johnster]

Ye gads and little fishes!  STJ; nearly 3 miles long between Undy and Caldicot Halt, up and down marshalling yards, two main lines, examination loops, a loco shed, and the car ferry operation!  How many people does he need for an operating session?  I would think at least 6, up and down main lines through traffic, up hump recep, up sorting/exam. loops/ferry, loco shed, down hump recep, down sorting. 

 

I've always thought Pilning, the other end of the tunnel, would make a good club exhibition layout with enough operational interest; plenty variety in the through traffic, detaching/attaching assistant locos, down exam loop, the ferry again, an occasional shunt into the cripple sidings, up and down loops dropping away westwards, and if you wanted more the Severn Beach line coming in on the up side.

 

The car ferry is mostly forgotten now but was a feature of childhood hollys in Cornwall; it saved about 60 miles and anything up to 3 hours driving time on the pre-motorway roads.  A large prairie, one or two Hawksworths including a BCK, and carflats, originally 4-wheelers but bogies by the mid-60s, when Hymeks replaced the prairies.  Cars were loaded on to the flat in the bays at STJ and Pilning, and there was a good bit of shunting to get the train formed up with coaches attached to the loco and the flats trailing across to the down for the return leg.  Cars up to small Transit van size and caravans were allowed, and you could pay extra for a tarp to protect your car from the acidic black slime that dripped on everything in the tunnel.  They were chocked and tied down, and required to be in gear with the handbrake applied. 

 

OT at a tangent with meandering childhood memories, moi?

[Dava]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

It might be a good idea for people in this thread to get hold of a copy of Classic Toy Trains, to get an idea of the breadth of what goes on within 3-rail 0 in the states.

 

It isn’t all tinplate, in fact it’s heavily dominated by plastic, because the US makers  want largely that way postwar, so the tin stuff is mostly genuinely old, or modern reproduction (they don’t seem to have the ‘revivalist’ strand that we do here from firms such as Ace, which gives us a lot of modern tinplate and ‘giant Horby Dublo’). It isn’t all 8x4 layouts with a million operating accessories, although there are plenty like that, and big versions of the same (80x40?), there are various degrees of train realism, and scenic realism, extending to “very” in both cases. It is a broad church. A barely comprehensible church from this side of the Atlantic, but a broad one.

The loco on the left is modern US 0, and apart from the wheels and current collection, it’s more or less ‘finescale’, so this one is at the ‘very’ end of the scale. It’s a truly superb runner too. This one is largely diecast construction. The 4F behind it is modern tinplate.

 

 

The diesel loco is a Bachmann Williams GE 44 tonner, a reasonable model above the footplate with slightly overscale handrails. Below, the trucks have a direct drive axle and freewheel axle with coarse wheels which can be replaced. Very similar to the GE 70 tonner I bought which awaits conversion to scale wheels & removal of fairground sound system. Otherwise these are reasonable models, available from Tootally Trains in UK which makes importing easy.

 

Dava
 

[kernowtim]

The model shop Hattons had a large quantity of pre owned American outline models at very reasonable prices, many seemingly unused and nearly all has now been sold, I bought a train set for £75 and a few wagons to play with and frighten the folks down at the local HRCA meeting, then put in a few more orders!

There are many fb groups I have looked at and a common theme is the perception that electrics are easier to wire up and more reliable, no complications on return loops is a popular example. 

I personally like the size and bulk and it fits In with my mainly coarse scale O gauge interests!

 

[jjb1970]

In Britain the retro O hobby is largely ignored by most railway modellers, it rarely appears in magazines, few model shops (physical or on-line) carry it and it is a very different hobby yet it is not insignificant and those involved seem passionate and dedicated. There are suppliers making new stuff, some of which does blur the distinction between coarse scale and fine scale (for want of better words). 

 

As with anything else, it is all about what people enjoy and want to do, and recognizing that because we like something doesn't mean others do. My advice for any hobby is do what you enjoy and enjoy what you do, and ignore gatekeepers.

[Nearholmer]

6 hours ago, Dava said:

The diesel loco is a Bachmann Williams GE 44 tonner

Nope. MTH, the model that Atlas now have in their range following the dispersal of MTH.

[PaulRhB]

On 18/10/2023 at 23:53, PMP said:

They’re recognised for what they are too, toys, so three rail doesn’t matter, but have a real connection to a homely, idealised USA.

I think it’s just that, the US being big enough that there’s a big market for that idealised world of 50’s USA seen in tv shows and it’s just another branch of the hobby. 
 

Much like the ‘serious modeller’ thread I think you’ll find quite a few also have a scale model so there’s some crossover but others will have the tinplate three rail, a Harley in the garage and a vintage gas pump in the kitchen. Retro chic, idealised childhood and in some cases just a love for bright, noisy toy trains. 

 

Those tin buses, minis etc are very popular over here, totally useless to ‘serious’ modellers?

 

 

well er? . . .

I do a fair bit of silly modelling in various scales simply because it amuses me. I have small numbers of tinplate O Hornby and a bit of Bing, Oe Billerbahn, OO Bing / Bassett Lowke and HO

 

 

 

I don’t ‘remember’ any of those as a kid but I did operate my Father’s friends tinplate O at shows so the rattle, sharp corners and bright liveries appeal because they remind me of a bunch of lovely guys. They allowed a youngster to play with their remembered toys and didn’t take it too seriously, I grew up around them and they became my friends too. Some of them have been gone over twenty years now but this stuff reminds me of a bunch having fun, talking drivel or serious as the mood took them and just having fun. A couple of them also built fabulous scale O gauge locos and I guess they ‘taught’ me you don’t have to be one thing and live in little definitions. 

 

But then I have ‘serious’ OO, 009, O and HOm stuff too. I don’t know how to define my interest and I don’t worry about trying thanks to my friends over the years, I’m just having fun being daft and serious as the mood takes me. 

[F-UnitMad]

Freight cars are perhaps the easiest things to convert from 3-rail for 2-rail use, usually just swap the trucks & couplers. I have a Lionel PS2 hopper and several MTH 'Premier' HiCube boxcars so converted, so there are decent 3-rail items where only the running gear blights them.

"3-rail Scale" seems to be a growing segment in the US, with a blackened center rail & Kadee couplers, possibly scale wheels as well, I'm not sure? 

[Jeff Smith]

I'm likening the continuance of 3-rail in the US to 00 in the UK - ie, people with existing stock cannot easily switch to either 2-rail or EM/P4.......

[MattR]

Full disclosure -- I got an O-gauge Lionel tank car for my 13th birthday ...

 

 

[brossard]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

I'm likening the continuance of 3-rail in the US to 00 in the UK - ie, people with existing stock cannot easily switch to either 2-rail or EM/P4.......

 

I had a flutter with EM when I was doing 4mm/00.  Wagons are quite easy to convert but steam locos, for me anyway, were another matter.  In the end I gave up on it, going back to 00.  This was short lived because about that time Dapol came out with affordable 0 gauge.  I was thoroughly fed up with narrow gauge trains and the rubbish couplings so switching to 0 was really a no brainer.  With finescale 0 you have a gauge that is very close to 4' 8.5", sort of the 0 gauge version of EM.  You also get consistent wheel standards along with back to backs.  Really the best modelling decision I ever made.

 

I don't see 00 going anywhere despite the attempts of some, like Marklin recently and Rivarossi many years ago who have tried to make inroads with H0 ish British stock.

 

John

[F-UnitMad]

29 minutes ago, MattR said:

Full disclosure -- I got an O-gauge Lionel tank car for my 13th birthday ...

 

 

This could be turning in to a 'Confessions' Thread.... 🤣