iPDigital Motors, Peco Double Slip and ECoS Controller. Help end my nightmare :-)

[psychosonicsid]

Hi all, I am hoping you can end my nightmare as I am really struggling with a DCC configuration using O scale Peco double slip, a medium right hand turnout and ECoS Controller. The track layout is a simple double loop with an Up Line and Down line with a small station and good dock coming off and going back on to and from both lines. (See the photo.)

I had a huge problem adding the double switch to ECoS so I reverted to 2 x single turnouts. All 8 tracks on double slip are isolated and the motors power the opposite frog polarity as per destructions. All turnouts are registered on ECoS and operate the iPdigital motors as they should but I still can’t get the polarity correct for the cross over or changing lines. (Straight through works fine.)

 

Anyone offer simple advise on how to wire this would be gratefully received. Many thanks

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Have  you looked at this from DCC Concepts?

 

Double Slip Wiring

[psychosonicsid]

2 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Have  you looked at this from DCC Concepts?

 

Double Slip Wiring

Yes thanks - have tried exactly that but doesn’t seem to work with the addition of the turnout into the double slip. No idea why.

[n9]

Perhaps obvious and you may have already done this, but have you checked the polarity of each frog with a multimeter to ensure it's what it should be for every route through the points/double slip? And are all of the motors oriented "the right way round"? If not, one or more may be giving you the opposite polarity to what you think it is. The multimeter will show you though.

[tarifa]

Do you have a frog polarity switch or juicer fitted.

[n9]

51 minutes ago, tarifa said:

Do you have a frog polarity switch or juicer fitted.

The iP Digitals come with a switch built in, so I'd assume those are the ones being used.

[WIMorrison]

The IP Digital has 2 switches built in, one of which internally switches the single frog output in conjunction with the change of the motor however this witch has a potentially serious drawback - it assumes that the motor has been installed in the same orientation as shown by DCC Concepts. If it has been installed 'out of phase' i.e turned through 180° then you will get a short. In this case you need to use the second switch and take droppers from the rails to the switch and use the common from this switch for the frog. This allows you to get the polarity of the frog correct.

Edited October 19, 2023 by WIMorrison
I hate auto correct!

[n9]

45 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The IP Digital has 2 switches built in, one of why internally switches the single frog output in conjunction with the change of the motor however this witch has a potentially serious drawback - it assumes that the motor has been installed in the same orientation as shown by DCC Concepts. If it has been installed 'out of phase' i.e turned through 180° then you will get a short. In this case you need to use the second switch and take droppers from the rails to the switch and use the common from this switch for the frog. This allows you to get the polarity of the frog correct.

Doesn't the "swap direction" command (address 197) take care of that? I've seen it's there, but haven't tested it yet.

[WIMorrison]

That swaps the direction of the blades, open will become closed and vice versa, unfortunately the incorrect polarity is tied to the physical position of the blades which you have just swapped  ergo all you will do is cause the same short, but in the opposite direction 😄

[n9]

7 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

That swaps the direction of the blades, open will become closed and vice versa, unfortunately the incorrect polarity is tied to the physical position of the blades which you have just swapped  ergo all you will do is cause the same short, but in the opposite direction 😄

Well that's grim! But good to know since I have a few that'll need to go in "backwards" due to lack of space. Thanks!

[Phil Bullock]

14 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

That swaps the direction of the blades, open will become closed and vice versa, unfortunately the incorrect polarity is tied to the physical position of the blades which you have just swapped  ergo all you will do is cause the same short, but in the opposite direction 😄

if the cobaltIP motor is mounted at 180 degrees then swapping over the Dcc feed wires from the bus will achieve the desired result without using another switch ….

[melmerby]

Might I ask why a double slip?

Prototypically it would be a single slip with no access between to two "main" lines, (which would be undesirable facing points.)

[55020]

Bottom line, don't blindly follow the DCC concepts advice but understand what is going on with their examples and then apply it to your installation.  Their advice is 100% accurate, but only with the installation as illustrated.  The orientation of the motors is fundamental to the solution, as is the feeds into the double slip.  Perhaps you need to work out what is happening with the feed from point "SL-E791BH"?

Edited October 19, 2023 by 55020

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, psychosonicsid said:

Yes thanks - have tried exactly that but doesn’t seem to work with the addition of the turnout into the double slip. No idea why.

This suggests to me that the problem is with the turnout not the double slip.

[brossard]

Wiring looks sorta similar to mine using Tortoise and Wabbit and NCE.  Have you completely isolated the slip to avoid any interference from the turnout?

 

I thought of showing a picture of my wiring but it would only scare you I fear.

 

John

 

A main line should have a single slip to avoid the facing point, only Peco don't do one in 0.  I tried making a single slip - twice, and eventually gave up.

Edited October 20, 2023 by brossard

[psychosonicsid]

13 hours ago, n9 said:

The iP Digitals come with a switch built in, so I'd assume those are the ones being used.

They are, beat me to the answer. :-)

 

[psychosonicsid]

8 hours ago, brossard said:

Wiring looks sorta similar to mine using Tortoise and Wabbit and NCE.  Have you completely isolated the slip to avoid any interference from the turnout?

 

I thought of showing a picture of my wiring but it would only scare you I fear.

 

John

 

A main line should have a single slip to avoid the facing point, only Peco don't do one in 0.  I tried making a single slip - twice, and eventually gave up.

Thanks for this. I have completely isolated the double slip to no avail. I am going to have another play with the multimeter in a while. Agreed re single slip, but do you think this double slip / turnout configuration will actually work on DCC?

[psychosonicsid]

13 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

The IP Digital has 2 switches built in, one of which internally switches the single frog output in conjunction with the change of the motor however this witch has a potentially serious drawback - it assumes that the motor has been installed in the same orientation as shown by DCC Concepts. If it has been installed 'out of phase' i.e turned through 180° then you will get a short. In this case you need to use the second switch and take droppers from the rails to the switch and use the common from this switch for the frog. This allows you to get the polarity of the frog correct.

iPdigital switches installed as per DCC Concept instructions, (I think :-). Thanks anyway.

[psychosonicsid]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

This suggests to me that the problem is with the turnout not the double slip.

I think so too, will go and play again, just gets so frustrating:-(

[psychosonicsid]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Might I ask why a double slip?

Prototypically it would be a single slip with no access between to two "main" lines, (which would be undesirable facing points.)

Hi, Yes, I know but Peco don’t do a single slip in ‘O’ and not really up to the challenge of making on myself. So double slip it is. Thanks for response.

[Nigelcliffe]

How I'd start testing:

 

Requires a multimeter which reads AC volts.   Put it over the live DCC tracks, and note what it reads as "track volts" (doesn't matter what it says, just a value, don't care about meters being unable to accurately measure DCC volts).  

 

First check the switches in the Cobalts do something (even if wrong thing):

 

Measure over the outer rails of the double slip, should be "track volts".   

Measure one frog to each of the outer rails in turn.   One should be zero, the other "track volts".     Repeat for other frog.  

Now throw one switch blade, and re-measure the opposite end frog.   It should have reversed which rail is "track volts" to the frog and which rail is zero to frog.   Repeat for other blade/frog pair. 

 

Next check the switches are doing the right thing: 

 

Redo the frog measurement, noting which route through the slip has been set by the combination of blade positions (four combinations).   Both frogs correct ?  Or one wrong ?    If one is wrong; either rotate the cobalt motor under its tie-bar,  or rewire the frog contact onto the other cobalt switch (which will require adding the DCC feeds as inputs to the switch).   If using the second switch on cobalt and it is wrong, then it can be reversed by swapping over the DCC inputs to the switch.  

 

 

Once that lot is correct,  move on to checking it is correct relative to the other turnout (which it should be if the turnout is correct), and sorting out whether the control panel is showing things as you'd like them to appear.  

 

 

[psychosonicsid]

13 hours ago, n9 said:

Doesn't the "swap direction" command (address 197) take care of that? I've seen it's there, but haven't tested it yet.

Yes tried that and thought I had it until I found another short taking one of the multiple routes through the config. :-(

[brossard]

2 hours ago, psychosonicsid said:

Thanks for this. I have completely isolated the double slip to no avail. I am going to have another play with the multimeter in a while. Agreed re single slip, but do you think this double slip / turnout configuration will actually work on DCC?

 

My layout is DCC, so yes, absolutely the Peco slip will work on DCC.  Impossible for me to say if your configuration will work, I think it implausible that it wouldn't.

 

My mates who have experience with Cobalt say that they are not all that great, but I couldn't be specific since I haven't studied the insides.  I have stuck with Tortoise, mostly because I have them from previous projects.  These are reliable with one exception and that is the internal wipers can come loose.  I have opened all mine and found a few with that defect, these have been repaired.

 

If I were to need additional point motors I think I would go for MTB.

 

John

[psychosonicsid]

All sorted, thanks to all for input. Oh and don’t ask what I did, ‘cos I have no idea:-) I think the problem was me over complicating issues. I had the wiring and motors wired correctly, just the layout diagram on the ECoS wrong. I was coming into turnouts set against the flow, hence the shorts. I find it difficult to visualise the route though the double slip:-( Anyway, once again, thanks all for comments.

[brossard]

Great news.  I've had seemingly insoluble issues before now, only to eventually figure it out.  Usually my dumbass wiring errors.

 

John