Retro / impressionistic modelling - a new modelling philosophy?

[fezza]

I've lost my modelling mojo recently and started to think about a new approach. 

 

I picked up a few old blue diesels– a Lima 47, a Hornby 25 and a Mainline Peak.  After a bit of cleaning I started to run them and began to think these were somehow more “realistic” and evocative of the early 1980s than my high fidelity DCC sound-fitted modern Bachmann version.  There’s something about running locos made in the 1980s that bring back memories of the period better than any modern version can.  I could also repair, weather and personalise them without worrying about damaging a £300 loco – I was actually doing some modelling, not just plonking it on the track and then spending hours fiddling with CV settings…

 

That made me think about a new project and a new modelling philosophy – using retro items to build a simple layout set in the 1980s.  That would mean using old fashioned materials such as brickpaper and cast metal parts for stations and fittings, together with classic materials from the old Peco range. All rolling stock would be only lightly modified so that the spirit of the original was not lost.  There would be no Bachmann – only pre-2000 stock.  The aim would be to present an impressionistic view of what BR was like in the 1980s and what a a good modern image  model railway would look like around 1985.

 

Am I mad? Or is there merit in this idea? Has anyone else considered this or done something similar? There is a lot of old and very affordable diesel-era stock out there so I think it is worth the experiment for anyone who grew up in the period.

Edited October 31, 2023 by fezza
Spelling

[SHMD]

That's quite a loco selection there! (Winces a bit.)

 

I can see the attraction - just plonk and play, but I wouldn't discount the Peco range too quick. Some (a lot?) is older than the locos you quote.

Great if any kids are going to have a "hands on" approach to things (running, building shelters or other station "furniture.)

 

Just make sure that any paper/card isn't allowed to fade/curl up and I think you could be onto something here - save loads too.

 

 

Good luck,

Kev.

 

[33C]

I feel you. Just having fun, doing modelling with cheap loco's that you can detail to your own standards. Ian Futers had it just right with believable scenarios and loco's that were achievable for the "average modeller".

A great little model of the time, that I always remember, and shown in colour in the RM, was "Ardlui". That is MY standard. Just thinking about it now gives a warm glow as I thought "I can do that". 

 

One day.....

[Nearholmer]

There’s a sub-culture/niche of the hobby devoted to retro-modelling, although I have to say that the 1980s is a bit recent for the sort of retro that’s usually involved., which tends to be 1960s-style and earlier. Two of the nicest retro layouts I know are a Minories built using material entirely contemporary with first publication of the plan, and a beautiful terminal station in 0 built entirely using 1930s and 1940s Leeds Model Company items. My own modest layout is distinctly retro (see link below) and PaulRhB who posts on RMWeb has a brilliant Billerbahn layout. Hornby Dublo layouts are, of course, ‘everywhere’. So, sorry to disappoint, but no, it isn’t a new philosophy, very few good ideas are!

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Nile]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Am I mad? Or is there merit in this idea? Has anyone else considered this or done something similar?

 

I'm doing something similar, modelling the BR blue era using only models available at that time. A lot cheaper than using current models, and more fun. Although my definition of the era can be a bit flexible.

[fezza]

Yes, I also think there's a lot of pleasure to be had in "rescuing" (preserving?) old models from the 1980s. So many unboxed items seem to be regarded as landfill by  modellers and dealers alike so they are readily available everywhere. It's nice to give these once-treasured items new life.

 

Somehow seeing my badly-weathered Hornby Rat wobbling around brings back childhood memories of both the real thing and my youth, a time when I first discovered the magic of modelling. And it only cost me £25...

[33C]

I coveted a playworn Triang maroon Princess in a second hand shop for ages. £15 which I didn't have. Saved up hoping it would still be there. Come the great day I finally had the money, it wasn't there! Luckily he had only moved it out the window...

It ran so smoothly and a bonus of a chuffing tender and smoke unit!

And the smell and patina, nothing comes close, except brake dust and "Speed-clean", or the smell of burning coal.

I suppose I'm really a train set modeller who has all the track packs....

Just run 'em!

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, fezza said:

Has anyone else considered this or done something similar?

There were definitely one or two retro layouts in 009 a few years ago, I think in connection with various relevant anniversaries (the 009 Society itself, Eggerbahn etc.). Possibly there’s some more now that the Society is 50 years old. This is not to be confused with my own early 009 modelling, which might be described as accidentally retro because of the use of lots of random old stuff, sometimes acquired because it was cheap and easily available. But now I have a sort of ‘heritage fleet’ that I like to run anyway, and of course lots of the modern Minitrains range are recreations of old Egger designs.

 

In general I think it’s an interesting point though as people collect old model railway equipment because they find it interesting but there aren’t as many people who then extend it to building the whole layout in a retro way, especially if it’s a proper scenic layout.

 

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There’s a sub-culture/niche of the hobby devoted to retro-modelling, although I have to say that the 1980s is a bit recent for the sort of retro that’s usually involved., which tends to be 1960s-style and earlier. Two of the nicest retro layouts I know are a Minories built using material entirely contemporary with first publication of the plan, and a beautiful terminal station in 0 built entirely using 1930s and 1940s Leeds Model Company items. My own modest layout is distinctly retro (see link below) and PaulRhB who posts on RMWeb has a brilliant Billerbahn layout. Hornby Dublo layouts are, of course, ‘everywhere’. So, sorry to disappoint, but no, it isn’t a new philosophy, very few good ideas are!

This probably isn’t quite the same point as in the original post, because it doesn’t relate to personal memory of the period in question, but I’m reminded of one observation I made while doing a bit of work to completely restore a rather knackered old Hornby clockwork tinplate loco a few years ago (this isn’t usually my kind of thing, but it seemed an interesting challenge at the time and hopefully I will get round to completing it eventually). Obviously by modern standards these are not considered especially accurate or detailed (especially at the ‘train set’ end of the market where this particular one fits in). And yet in some ways they are vastly more realistic because of how they operate; the rattling sound made when running over metal track for example, or a clockwork loco being wound up and running independently before needing to be “refuelled”, rather than being constantly powered and controlled through the track. And while restoring this loco (which is almost entirely made of metal, unlike the post-1970 plastic model railway stuff I’m more used to) I was cleaning off the old paint and rust, then priming and repainting the original metalwork, just as someone overhauling a real locomotive might do.

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

people collect old model railway equipment because they find it interesting but there aren’t as many people who then extend it to building the whole layout in a retro way, especially if it’s a proper scenic layout

Scenic retro-layouts are quite unusual, unless one counts Hornby Dublo, where there are a lot of fully featured layouts about, although the scenery is mostly of the entirely flat sort.

 

“Loose lay” layouts are common enough though, and some get incredibly elaborate. If you scroll down on this page https://traincollector.co.uk/event_reports/ and dip into the event reports you can see some really huge “everything in the catalogue and more” layouts. The Summer 2023 meeting at Gaydon was particularly good, to the degree where the photo selection doesn’t really do it justice.

 

Anyone who has never been to a big TCS “do”, especially one that also involves HRCA and BLS, is very much recommended to attend one, because they are complete pop-up museums of the history of commercial model trains …… it’s the only real way to get to understand that Hornby 0 gauge wasn’t the starting point, that there were some utterly superb tinplate r-t-r things in the market in the 1910s, for instance.

 

I don’t think I’ve seen a 1970s or 1980s ‘blue’ layout at a TCS show, but such a thing, if done with all contemporary material, would fit right in, and there is no ‘sniffiness’ about plastic models; Playmobil and the very eccentric Faller E-Train get featured quite often. Go for it Fezza!

[fezza]

I'll have a look at TCS - sounds interesting.

 

I'm hoping to pick up a few bits at Warley, although last time I went I felt most stalls were catering for the premium end of the market, which is understandable I suppose.

 

Anyone have any recommendations for "retro signals"? I've got some Hornby, but would like some variety. 

[Nearholmer]

Maybe you need to post in the vintage/collectable sub-forum, because there are people there who know everything ever made.

 

But, if you are a Railway Modeller subscriber, have a look at reviews and adverts in the archived back-numbers. Ratio were to my recollection the main source used by serious chaps in the 1980s, but I think their range may not have been as wide as today, plus there were providers of MAS such as Eckon.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[fezza]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Maybe you need to post in the vintage/collectable sub-forum, because there are people there who know everything ever made.

 

But, if you are a Railway Modeller subscriber, have a look at reviews and adverts in the archived back-numbers. Ratio were to my recollection the main source used by serious chaps in the 1980s, but I think their range may not have been as wide as today, plus there were providers of MAS such as Eckon.

 

I've actually got piles of mice- nibbled RMs in the depths of the garage. Time to dig them out! Thanks I remember Eckon - I was trying to remember their name. I'm sure I've got some in deep store somewhere. They are quite chunky and just the thing for this project 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, fezza said:

Am I mad? Or is there merit in this idea? Has anyone else considered this or done something similar?

Yes, yes, yes.

 

I 'dropped out' of the temple of model railway excellence over 40 years past, on realising that scenic treament is pointless,  (you cannot operate it) didn't want to run the Loco carriage and wagon works, (that's a separate department on the real thing) because what interested me most was the impression that timetable operations produce. Experienced modellers told me I was mad.

 

I have prototype track formations, representative trains for the area and period of interest, and run them on schedule: joy unbounded! If there isn't a model available of a vehicle, I use a 'place holder' that's the best approximation, whether RTR or cobbled together.

 

Every now and again a little paint is applied to imprive appearance, when my personal artistic impulse kicks in for a couple of hours annually. But most of the time I am operating on a layout that enables all the required movements to be performed realistically. (Many years ago a French friend told me that this is a 'trainodrome'.)

[Nearholmer]

Another thought: if you are aiming for a 1980s model railway look, looking at 1980s model railways in RM can be no bad idea. Most will include bits that the builder has obtained secondhand, or has carried forward from previous layouts, and signals always have been things that people carried forward, especially Hornby Dublo ones, because they are both good enough and, unlike plastic kit ones, robust enough - you still sometimes see them on not-deliberately-retro layouts today.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[fezza]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Yes, yes, yes.

 

I 'dropped out' of the temple of model railway excellence over 40 years past, on realising that scenic treament is pointless,  (you cannot operate it) didn't want to run the Loco carriage and wagon works, (that's a separate department on the real thing) because what interested me most was the impression that timetable operations produce. Experienced modellers told me I was mad.

 

I have prototype track formations, representative trains for the area and period of interest, and run them on schedule: joy unbounded! If there isn't a model available of a vehicle, I use a 'place holder' that's the best approximation, whether RTR or cobbled together.

 

Every now and again a little paint is applied to imprive appearance, when my personal artistic impulse kicks in for a couple of hours annually. But most of the time I am operating on a layout that enables all the required movements to be performed realistically. (Many years ago a French friend told me that this is a 'trainodrome'.)

 

Yes, I find it odd that people produce beautifully scenery, but then have unrealistic track layouts and run very random trains! Each to their own, but I'd rather have more impressionistic scenery and trains that reflect the period running to a timetable. Perhaps this is because I grew up on Cyril Freezer track plans and essays on operation from the early 1980s.  There seem to be very few essays on operation in railway modelling magazines these days.

 

Was operation was more of a 'thing' in the past?  I particularly remember the Fisher Street to Victoria Bridge layout (around 1985?) that was nothing special scenically but had realistic catenary and interlocked signalling  based on contemporary BR practice, together with clear purposeful operation.  Does anyone else remember this?  The simple engineers blue brick-paper walls seemed to ooze atmosphere (Kings Cross loco, southern approach to Leicester London Road or BNS) without any great scenic elaboration.

 

I suppose I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the sort of modelling where there is a rush to buy the latest expensive thing.  Of course, people are perfectly entitled to spend their hard-earned money in any way they wish.  But I don't think it is for me anymore. I'm now in search of something a bit different - something that creates a different impression and brings back memories of older products that we loved many years ago, while still producing an interesting, operational model railway.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

8 minutes ago, fezza said:

Was operation was more of a 'thing' in the past?  I particularly remember the Fisher Street to Victoria Bridge layout (around 1985?) that was nothing special scenically but had realistic catenary and interlocked signalling  based on contemporary BR practice, together with clear purposeful operation.  Does anyone else remember this? 

Oh yes. 'My kind of layout'. The only blot on Fisher Street was the use of Triang (un)Super4 track which I knew would not allow realistic slow operation with locos such as an 08, because of the poor conductivity of the points with dead crossings and half-dead mazak closure rails; but that problem had long been solved for me by Peco's Streamline.

 

I wouldn't have any model railway items if I couldn't have the fun of operating a layout every day I am home and free to do so. Operation was a larger interest segment in this hobby's past, another layout I recall featured enabled the traffic from Padd to Bristle and return to be worked, with fairly rudimentary scenery. (The space was found by buying three contiguous terraced houses and linking their attic spaces.)

 

Further evidence of much less operation: I am convinced by my regular s/h purchases of the last twenty four years 'made in China' new introductions, that 99% of this RTR OO has at most only been test run by the previous owner. (OK, this is a biased sample because I don't buy self evidently 'knocked about' - and thus possibly vigorously operated models - those lacking chimney's, domes, bogie frames, and the like.)

 

 

[john new]

I’ve thought for a while that most scenery however fine-scale is often under weathered and at exhibitions over lit. That is not to say there isn’t excellent work out there, because there is. I sort of agree with the OP but then I see a layout like Hills of the north depicting Shap ( we had it at York recently) that gets it right. 
 

For me I like watching trains and a bit of shunting, basic but looks right scenery and a mix of older models would suit me. One thing though is crucial, basic doesn’t mean unrealistic, for example use of obviously continental and/or US architecture on a UK based layout. All seen recently on layouts, it shouts wrong to me. Even a cartoon like flat, but clearly British, would work. Look and think stage scenery principles, scenery and lighting is there to set a scene for the actors or in our case our trains. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Chris Ford's The Art of Compromise, (RM OZCTOBER 2018) based on a Roy Link plan from 1978, made intentional use of rolling stock and scenic items from that period, but included some newer scenic items. Since then it has changed hands and been given away in a BRM competition.

[Nearholmer]

Up until about WW2 model railways were all about operation, and most had barely any scenery, then the see-saw began to tip in favour of scenery.
 

If you look at the best of 50s and 60s layouts they seemed to have a good balance between operation and scenery, with people using the new, smaller scales to create “system” layouts to decently high standards on both axes. After that, things seem to have moved progressively in favour of “the setting”, away from operation, I think partly because of space constraints coupled with a desire for photo-realism, and partly because you can’t any longer pop down to the nearest station and see operation happening ….. no semaphore signals, no level crossing gates, not the slightest ghost of any shunting ….
 

So, we arrive at a place where the boundary between ‘model railway layout’ and ‘scenic diorama incorporating railway features’ becomes almost invisible. A massive generalisation, of course, but the see-saw has definitely risen at one end and fallen at the other. 

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, fezza said:

I'll have a look at TCS - sounds interesting.

 

I'm hoping to pick up a few bits at Warley, although last time I went I felt most stalls were catering for the premium end of the market, which is understandable I suppose.

 

Anyone have any recommendations for "retro signals"? I've got some Hornby, but would like some variety. 

 

TBH you would be better off looking at small "local" exhibitions rather than places like Warley.

 

At Warrington last week my brother picked up loads of good condition 1970s and 1980s Hornby/Mainline/Airfix/Lima for literally pennies!

 

I'm talking about things like wagons and coaches for £3 to £5. Not a mark on them. Locos in the £15 to £25 bracket.

 

 

He seems to want things that go with his old stuff from that era, not the latest models. So I suppose he's doing something similar.

 

 

 

Jason

[fezza]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Up until about WW2 model railways were all about operation, and most had barely any scenery, then the see-saw began to tip in favour of scenery.
 

If you look at the best of 50s and 60s layouts they seemed to have a good balance between operation and scenery, with people using the new, smaller scales to create “system” layouts to decently high standards on both axes. After that, things seem to have moved progressively in favour of “the setting”, away from operation, I think partly because of space constraints coupled with a desire for photo-realism, and partly because you can’t any longer pop down to the nearest station and see operation happening ….. no semaphore signals, no level crossing gates, not the slightest ghost of any shunting ….
 

So, we arrive at a place where the boundary between ‘model railway layout’ and ‘scenic diorama incorporating railway features’ becomes almost invisible. A massive generalisation, of course, but the see-saw has definitely risen at one end and fallen at the other. 

 

Yes, it's odd in a way because in the US operation is still a big thing. Perhaps that's because shortlines and wagonload traffic are still prevalent there.

 

However accurate operation is probably easier than ever now in the UK given almost every major  mainline loco or DMU is available in some form or other.

 

I wonder if the lack of operational potential is one reason why many layouts have a short life in the UK. The exceptions, like Ronsthorpe seem to be the ones with the greatest operational potential.

 

The late 1970s and early 1980s was a golden era for operation - block freight, wagonload freight, containerised freight, newspaper traffic and mail - often passing through traditional track layouts and semaphore signals. And sprinterisation hadn't been thought of!

Edited November 1, 2023 by fezza

[westernviscount]

I often call my approach to modelling 1980s style. This is mostly to do with the style of modelling my Dad was undertaking back then. A finer approach usinh SMP track and copperclad points. 

 

I use plastikard to build structures and I think use materials available in the 80s (including kits created later than the 80s but could have been created then). 

 

This is not a rule for me though, it is just my interest and budget allows mostly for an old fashioned approach. 

 

My love of trains and modelling them, at its childlike heights (no other worries or responsibilities) was in the 1980s and 90s and there was nothing better than a lima sprinter, class 60  class 31, 47 and a Hornby pacer. 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

The late 1970s and early 1980s was a golden era for operation

Interesting how the golden age marches forward in step with the generations.

 

If you ask guys who remember the pre-1967 railway in any detail, they’ll tell you that it had all become boring and not worth bothering with by c1980, and I bet if you could find anyone old enough to remember the days before WW1 (somewhat unlikely now) they’d tell you that it all went to pot with The Grouping in 1923.

 

I’m baffled by why anyone wants to model the present day railway, most of  which seems to me about as interesting as a bowl of cold porridge (all the freight trains seem to be hauled by one class of loco, and all the passenger trains seem to be variations on a theme of the same two multiple units), but I’m sure there are fifteen year olds out there now for whom this is the golden age of railways, storing up memories with which to bore their grandchildren.

 

Basically, “the golden age of railways” (and a lot of other things) is between when you are old enough to go out and about without your parents, and when you start worrying about life because you’ve become a parent yourself!

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Nearholmer

[fezza]

Interestingly when Buckingham Central was being built in the 1950s it was modelling the golden age of 40 years previous! So I suppose the golden age is always about 40years ago, when we were young!

 

I do, however, think there was a much greater variety of freight operation and freight vehicles in the late 70s- and far more loco hauled trains. I recently looked at a working timetable for Taunton in 1975 - over 90 per cent of passenger trains were loco hauled! There were even milk trains. That's good enough for me!

[Nearholmer]

It’s certainly better than now from a railway enthusiasts perspective.