Retro / impressionistic modelling - a new modelling philosophy?

[BachelorBoy]

On 02/11/2023 at 21:02, Nearholmer said:

A pal of mine was into ‘modern image’ in the 70s, and he caught the look very well by weathering everything, trains, track, station buildings, with a light mist of humbrol track colour (a dark, Matt brown) up to about waist level, varying density according to distance from the train wheels.

 

As I remember, the dominant colours of the 1970s were brown and orange.

[33C]

7 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

were brown and orange

Terry's!

[Hroth]

3 minutes ago, 33C said:

Terry's!

No!

 

MINE!!!

 

[33C]

8 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

As I remember, the dominant colours of the 1970s were brown and orange.

Ah! The seventies...

Triang train set.

Big Big train.

Airfix lineside kits.

Extra points!

What a Christmas!

[MJI]

11 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Everyone seems to think they are right dimensionally but they must only be looking above the solebar.  The bogies being about a scale 8" too near the ends jar with me.  Mainline and Lima were better on that criterion.

But they are a good base.

 

 

[Wheatley]

On 31/10/2023 at 18:33, fezza said:

Am I mad? Or is there merit in this idea? Has anyone else considered this or done something similar? There is a lot of old and very affordable diesel-era stock out there so I think it is worth the experiment for anyone who grew up in the period.

There is a phenomenon is plastic scale modelling known as Advanced Modeller Syndrome (AMS), which manifests itself as the inability to build any kit, however accurate or recently tooled, without adding 5 times the kit price worth of aftermarket decals, resin and etched goodies. It can be seen at model shows and in the press as aircraft modelled with every panel open etc, albeit it is usually beautifully done. It causes issues because it greatly extends the time taken to build anything, and as the average modellers' stash of unbuilt kits will last several times the combined lifetimes of himself (because it's usually blokes) and any small relatives he was thinking of passing them on to, it causes domestic strife. There is a parallel with being unable to visit a model railway shop for a packet of track pins without coming out with a £200 sound fitted loco.   

 

The accepted cure is to build a Matchbox kit with only the tools and techniques available to you when you were 14. Kudos points are awarded if you can get it finished and painted by tea time, and the decals on before bed time. 

[25kV]

5 hours ago, Wheatley said:

The accepted cure is to build a Matchbox kit with only the tools and techniques available to you when you were 14. Kudos points are awarded if you can get it finished and painted by tea time, and the decals on before bed time. 

Paint?  Decals?!  If my matchbox/airfix kit planes weren't flying around the room within 2 hours of me opening the box (age 14), something was very wrong. 😉   (Not sure I ever actually painted or applied decals to an aeroplane kit...)

[Northmoor]

11 minutes ago, 25kV said:

Paint?  Decals?!  If my matchbox/airfix kit planes weren't flying around the room within 2 hours of me opening the box (age 14), something was very wrong. 😉   (Not sure I ever actually painted or applied decals to an aeroplane kit...)

I'm addressing the same youthful shortcomings by dipping in and out of finishing off many of the aircraft kits I built up to 40 years ago.  I've been focussed on the smaller Series One and Two models before I try and re-assemble the Sunderland........... Fortunately I was very diligent/careful/anally-retentive (take your pick) and kept any parts that broke off.  Since the beginning of the pandemic it's certainly re-awakened the enjoyment I used to get from building model kits, in fact three more have just arrived today from the Hattons sale.  The Round Tuit pile is growing again.

[33C]

12 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

The Round Tuit pile is growing again.

Don't let it grow too big...I have to live to 136 to finish the one's I currently have!

 

Bound to get more for Xmas too, not that I'm complaining...

[Wheatley]

49 minutes ago, 33C said:

 136 

Phffft. Lightweight. 300+ when I stopped counting, not including armour/targets.

 

At current rates of progress I need to retire 25 years ago and live to about 200. 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Wheatley

[Northmoor]

18 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Phffft. Lightweight. 300+ when I stopped counting, not including armour/targets.

 

At current rates of progress I need to retire 25 years ago and live to about 200. 

 

When I started the London commute about ten years ago, I worked out I had enough books awaiting reading to keep me going until about 62.  Following the pandemic, initially none and now less on-train reading time (plus, ahem, more books purchased), I now need to work until about age 75.  This obviously eats into the available modelling time, so I dread to think I old I need to live to for them all to be completed.

 

Collecting, dreaming and unfulfilled ambitions is all part of the fun of the hobby.  If we all achieved everything we set out to do, it would be a chore, plus the industry supplying us would be considerably smaller.  There are many, many worse things to waste our money on.

[MJI]

10 hours ago, Wheatley said:

There is a phenomenon is plastic scale modelling known as Advanced Modeller Syndrome (AMS), which manifests itself as the inability to build any kit, however accurate or recently tooled, without adding 5 times the kit price worth of aftermarket decals, resin and etched goodies. It can be seen at model shows and in the press as aircraft modelled with every panel open etc, albeit it is usually beautifully done. It causes issues because it greatly extends the time taken to build anything, and as the average modellers' stash of unbuilt kits will last several times the combined lifetimes of himself (because it's usually blokes) and any small relatives he was thinking of passing them on to, it causes domestic strife. There is a parallel with being unable to visit a model railway shop for a packet of track pins without coming out with a £200 sound fitted loco.   

 

The accepted cure is to build a Matchbox kit with only the tools and techniques available to you when you were 14. Kudos points are awarded if you can get it finished and painted by tea time, and the decals on before bed time. 

 

This is where i stop, i will go for accuracy such as axle boxes and brake gear but stop at all the brake rigging on wagons and coaches.

[melmerby]

On 09/11/2023 at 17:04, fezza said:

Does anyone know if there is a full list of all the BR outline products Lima produced?

I found this, don't know how accurate but it is HO & OO

http://mmiwakoh.de/Eigene Webs/lima-modellbahn/GB1 en.htm

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

 

This is where i stop, i will go for accuracy such as axle boxes and brake gear but stop at all the brake rigging on wagons and coaches.

Yes, same. I know there's some gubbins going on in between the wheels but unless it's really prominent then it gets left off. I usually add the tie bars on the outer ends of clasp brakes as they're quite noticeable on a 17'6" wagon  (and they make the brake shoes a bit more robust) but that's about it. 

 

It's the 80/20 rule - most of the effect for a lot less effort. 

[33C]

I don't care what is underneath the coaches as long as they stay on the track. And then i go home and do some modelling.....

[Legend]

What a great topic that I’ve just come across . I think you have to do whatever pleases you . In my case I found that I was subconsciously building layouts that used to be in the 60s/70s Hornby catalogue . Not accurate but capturing the atmosphere of that time .

 

Back in the 60s/70s I spent ages studying the layouts in the catalogues and dreaming of what locomotives I could get.New additions were generally limited to one a year at Christmas .  I still have all these models and most are still serviceable . I’ve further now gone on and bought the models I couldn’t afford or get at the time - including some Wrenn items that were just out our price range back then .  So basically I’m running a retro Railway like you . Starting in the 60s , through every decade since. With models from Tri-ang to Accurascale  . 
 

My layout in the loft is what you would call a system  with three terminal platforms on the inside, three through platforms where some trains turn back and three further platforms in an outer loop which is the furthest destination . While I do like watching trains just go round , I do also enjoy operating them . Train arrival at platform , pilot runs in to take coaches away or put them on departure platform, releasing engine  etc etc . 
 

One of the best layouts I remember seeing in a magazine was Hanbury in March 82 Railway Modeller .  Hornby Dublo, Tri-ang stock , Superquick stations  but with accent on operation . A favourite because of that 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Legend

[fezza]

I recently found a copy of Edward Beal's Railway Modelling in Miniature in a junk shop. I have sent it to a friend who is just starting up again. Beal's West Midland line is still inspirational and shows what can be done with simple readily available materials (he revised much of the book during WW2 so there wasn't much about at all.). He was also into system modelling where everything had a purpose within a real railway setting. A real gem if you can find it and an inspiration for my retro modelling.

 

On MK1 coaches I happily run Mainline, Lima and Triang in the same rake. The differences in underframe add to the quirkiness and history of my line. As on the real railway, underframe details and bogies often get changed and modified, with those changes adding history and character to each vehicle. Some have a few minor paint scratches but for me that is patina and tells the story of when those coaches were once someone's prized Christmas gift on a 1970s railway. On my line they have new life. Much better than the perfect stuff that never leaves its box to enjoy life.

 

Sure you can pay £70 and get MK1  uniformity. I pay £5 or £10 and have a lot of fun modifying and painting detail on something that then becomes unique.

[APOLLO]

I still have my old Trix and Hornby Dubblo (City of London) 2 rail pacifics that still run well and fly around with 12 on occasionally.

 

A very old 3 rail Hornby Dubblo Duchess has pride of place in my model of Ince Central Wagon Works scrap line, been there for years !!

 

Nice to have / run the (very) old stuff on occasions.

 

Brit15

 

 

[ian]

23 minutes ago, fezza said:

I recently found a copy of Edward Beal's Railway Modelling in Miniature

Beal's West Midland - The OO Gauge Layout Of A Lifetime is one for your shelves.

 

Back in the days of yore there were model railways that put the emphasis on the railways rather than the model. This is something that is still big in the US - models of large sections of railway systems rather than a single station, or part of one. Currently the UK hobby seems to be concentrated on producing rather nice models of a specific location (be it real or imagined) rather than portraying how a chunk of the rail network works and interacts.

Those of us of a certain age, or more, will remember layouts like Jack Ray's Crewchester, Norman Eagles' Sherwood Section and Peter Denny's Buckingham - all of which were models of railway systems where trains went from place to place, in some cases with intermediate stops or alternative routes. Whilst the models were all individually built, rather than taken out of a box, none the less they weren't the stars of the show, instead they were just actors in the show that was operating the layout like the real thing.

Many people hold up John Ahern's Madder Valley, now preserved at Pendon Museum, as the first true scenic layout but overlook the fact that it was designed to be interesting to operate as well. The various industries gave a purpose to the freight movements and the various modelled communities gave a reason for the passenger operations.

 

 

The 'grand-daddy' of UK 4mm operations was Edward Beal. During the 50s and 60s he published a stream of articles and books about building 4mm models and how to use them to portray real operations. If you come across a copy of his book WEST MIDLAND: A Railway in Miniature I'd strongly advise sitting down with it. It is a fascinating read and whilst much of its content is dated it still provides much food for thought.

 

 

Today we are fortunate in that we can sit at a computer screen and order finely-detailed locomotives that run smoothly, accurate coaches and freight wagons to a constant scale and scale miles of track at the wave of a plastic card. We can add virtually any type of scenic embellishment we like, all without raising a sweat if we so choose. So where are the operating empires of today? Where are the layouts with four or five stations with freight terminals, branches and visibly different types of traffic?

Maybe it is just me, but the layouts I remember reading about in my youth that left the biggest impression were not the large 'railway in a landscape' single (or no) station scenic spectaculars, but the ones that replicated a significant slice of railway. Good narrow gauge does this - after all you can model a whole line and often get the spectacular scenery thrown in, US outline layouts (in the US) have it down to a fine art. Perhaps it is time for a few more of us in the UK to think about using the current crop of products to create models railways rather than model stations?

[fezza]

1 hour ago, ian said:

Beal's West Midland - The OO Gauge Layout Of A Lifetime is one for your shelves.

 

Back in the days of yore there were model railways that put the emphasis on the railways rather than the model. This is something that is still big in the US - models of large sections of railway systems rather than a single station, or part of one. Currently the UK hobby seems to be concentrated on producing rather nice models of a specific location (be it real or imagined) rather than portraying how a chunk of the rail network works and interacts.

Those of us of a certain age, or more, will remember layouts like Jack Ray's Crewchester, Norman Eagles' Sherwood Section and Peter Denny's Buckingham - all of which were models of railway systems where trains went from place to place, in some cases with intermediate stops or alternative routes. Whilst the models were all individually built, rather than taken out of a box, none the less they weren't the stars of the show, instead they were just actors in the show that was operating the layout like the real thing.

Many people hold up John Ahern's Madder Valley, now preserved at Pendon Museum, as the first true scenic layout but overlook the fact that it was designed to be interesting to operate as well. The various industries gave a purpose to the freight movements and the various modelled communities gave a reason for the passenger operations.

 

 

The 'grand-daddy' of UK 4mm operations was Edward Beal. During the 50s and 60s he published a stream of articles and books about building 4mm models and how to use them to portray real operations. If you come across a copy of his book WEST MIDLAND: A Railway in Miniature I'd strongly advise sitting down with it. It is a fascinating read and whilst much of its content is dated it still provides much food for thought.

 

 

Today we are fortunate in that we can sit at a computer screen and order finely-detailed locomotives that run smoothly, accurate coaches and freight wagons to a constant scale and scale miles of track at the wave of a plastic card. We can add virtually any type of scenic embellishment we like, all without raising a sweat if we so choose. So where are the operating empires of today? Where are the layouts with four or five stations with freight terminals, branches and visibly different types of traffic?

Maybe it is just me, but the layouts I remember reading about in my youth that left the biggest impression were not the large 'railway in a landscape' single (or no) station scenic spectaculars, but the ones that replicated a significant slice of railway. Good narrow gauge does this - after all you can model a whole line and often get the spectacular scenery thrown in, US outline layouts (in the US) have it down to a fine art. Perhaps it is time for a few more of us in the UK to think about using the current crop of products to create models railways rather than model stations?

 

Yes, I loved his West Midlands line book - a railway that was a work of fiction but one that  seemed to me more real than many models based on real prototypes

 

You might also enjoy Tony Koester's recent tribute to his friend Allen McClelland's amazing V & O layout (called Allen McClelland and His Virginian & Ohio). It is not as substantial as the WM book but it shows how thinking of a model as a system makes it much more fun. It's not surprising that some of these layouts had very long lives compared to many modern Finescale efforts that are beautifully made but don't have as much operational potential.

[C126]

1 hour ago, ian said:

Perhaps it is time for a few more of us in the UK to think about using the current crop of products to create models railways ...

 

Trust me, there are many of us eager to model inter-dependent railway networks/systems, but lack the space, time, and money so to do.  🙂  What I have in my garage, and what I doodle over a glass of port after dinner, differ massively in scale and operational interest.  We have to work with what we have.

 

 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, ian said:

Today we are fortunate in that we can sit at a computer screen and order finely-detailed locomotives that run smoothly, accurate coaches and freight wagons to a constant scale and scale miles of track at the wave of a plastic card. We can add virtually any type of scenic embellishment we like, all without raising a sweat if we so choose. So where are the operating empires of today? Where are the layouts with four or five stations with freight terminals, branches and visibly different types of traffic?

Maybe it is just me, but the layouts I remember reading about in my youth that left the biggest impression were not the large 'railway in a landscape' single (or no) station scenic spectaculars, but the ones that replicated a significant slice of railway. Good narrow gauge does this - after all you can model a whole line and often get the spectacular scenery thrown in, US outline layouts (in the US) have it down to a fine art. Perhaps it is time for a few more of us in the UK to think about using the current crop of products to create models railways rather than model stations?

Personally I prefer railways-in-the-landscape, but it's just that, a personal preference.  I can see the appeal of operations-based layouts though; perhaps they never caught on with me as I always expected my model railway to be operated by me alone, whereas these bigger complex layouts often need multiple operators.  The biggest factor working against operations-based layouts is likely to be lack of space in modern homes, hence the growth of the "micro layout" genre.

 

I suppose the few layouts now that do (or should) require accurate operation are the depots.  Locos have to come onto depot for servicing, re-fuelling, then park up before being released for the next duty.  However I can't remember watching one at a show* that was actually operated realistically with an explaination of what movements were taking place and why.

 

*Actually I do know of one diesel depot exhibitor who has built a couple of such layouts (he's a regular RMWeb contributor) where operations are realistic because the layout is designed like a real depot, thanks to comprehensive research.  I would guess that at least 90% of depot layouts are copies of (copies of) other layouts, where this research wasn't done so couldn't actually function in reality.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, ian said:

Many people hold up John Ahern's Madder Valley, now preserved at Pendon Museum, as the first true scenic layout but overlook the fact that it was designed to be interesting to operate as well. The various industries gave a purpose to the freight movements and the various modelled communities gave a reason for the passenger operations.

 

The 'grand-daddy' of UK 4mm operations was Edward Beal. During the 50s and 60s he published a stream of articles and books about building 4mm models and how to use them to portray real operations. If you come across a copy of his book WEST MIDLAND: A Railway in Miniature I'd strongly advise sitting down with it. It is a fascinating read and whilst much of its content is dated it still provides much food for thought.

The Madder Valley was indeed extremely well designed for operation.  We run it about four times a year and though, to keep things moving for the public, we don't operate it to its full potential which would require a lor more shunting, it can still hold my interest for a full day (preferably operating Maddeport) There aren't many layouts I've operated that I could say that of.  It's interesting how many later layouts were closely based on it including Derek Naylor's  Aire Valley and Giles Barnabe's 00n3 layout. Curiously though, while Ahern wrote extensively about every aspect of the railway, including its control systems and two-rail electrification scheme, he never did write about its operation. Like many home layouts, I suspect it wasn't actualy operated all that often though running an occasional train up and down the valley would have been entirely possible and enjoyable on his own. I do rather wonder if that was also true of the West Midland Railway. The WMR was clearly designed for intensive operation with a set of standard routes, as described in "West Midland, a railway in miniature", but did Edward Beal actually have regular operating sessions with a group of people as Peter Denny, Frank Dyer and John Allen did? 

 

The MVR wasn't the first model railway to include a world beyond the railway corridor. Aldo Cosomati's 3.5mm scale Alheeba State Railway (MRN Dec 1933 & Jan 1934)  also did this and though nothing like as well developed as the MVR ten years later, it was one of John Ahern's main inspirations. John Ahern's layout was though the first to fully develop the idea of a railway within a believable world and I would love to be able to actually visit Madderport and Gammon Magna and to have tea in the Monraker's Inn. I would say that the balance between creating a believabl world in miniature and including a very operationally sound model railway in that world has rarely been achieved as well.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Pacific231G

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 31/10/2023 at 18:33, fezza said:

Am I mad? Or is there merit in this idea? Has anyone else considered this or done something similar? 

 

I must admit that I have not read every post on this thread, but I hope this layout may have some relevance to this discussion.

 

 

My Club was formed in 1961 and for our 50th anniversary I built this 'typical' 1961 Table Top layout. It represents a typical kitchen table layout which got dismantled every day because 'mother needs the table back'

 

Except for the two trains which run clockwise and anti-clockwise and the tea cup, everything else is glued down permanently in place - YES, the de-railed tanker, the track plans, the Railway Modeller, the pencil etc are all superglued in position

 

There is usually a half-eaten biscuit in the tea cup's saucer and at one show a visitor complained bitterly that I should not have included the ashtray and (toy) cigarette as it would encourage his 3 year-old son to take up smoking.

[PaulRhB]

On 21/12/2023 at 12:45, ian said:

Currently the UK hobby seems to be concentrated on producing rather nice models of a specific location (be it real or imagined) rather than portraying how a chunk of the rail network works and interacts.

Some of the UK hobby 😉

 

 

Oh and some Swiss ones

 

Several Rmwebbers also do US modules and I’m currently working on colliery modules and West Highland ones!

 

The Billerbahn can also expand into a full system point to point or roundy