South Wales NCB in the 1970s (as yet unnamed)

[Wayne 37901]

Afternoon all,

 A quick end of week update. First of all thanks to my good friends Andrew and Rob @NHY 581 for sending links to an excellent book that landed Saturday. If anyone is into industrial steam and doesn't own a copy then I'd thoroughly recommend it, I loved looking through every photo and even though it's black and white every photograph was full of atmosphere.

 

Track laying has also commenced with the 'mainline' being put in yesterday evening so things seem to be ticking over nicely and thoughts are moving towards a name for the layout. I have a couple of possibilities in mind but I don't want anything that ties it to a specific area, the layout takes inspiration from a couple of sites and isn't meant to be an exact copy.

 

Back soon.

 

Wayne

Edited November 19, 2023 by Wayne 37901

[br2975]

On 19/11/2023 at 17:19, Wayne 37901 said:

Afternoon all,

 A quick end of week update. First of all thanks to my good friends Andrew and Rob @NHY 581 for sending links to an excellent book that landed Saturday. If anyone is into industrial steam and doesn't own a copy then I'd thoroughly recommend it, I loved looking through every photo and even though it's black and white every photograph was full of atmosphere.

 

Track laying has also commenced with the 'mainline' being put in yesterday evening so things seem to be ticking over nicely and thoughts are moving towards a name for the layout. I have a couple of possibilities in mind but I don't want anything that ties it to a specific area, the layout takes inspiration from a couple of sites and isn't meant to be an exact copy.

 

Back soon.

 

Wayne

.

A book so good, I bought it twice.

.

The second time was when "NHY581" whispered to me "have you seen what's on the shelf over there ?"

.

Oh ! and will you be getting Modelu to produce this bloke for your layout ?

.

 

[br2975]

Just for you Wayne, here's the Mountain Ash (Abergorki) Landsale Yard being shunted in the late 70s by Barclay 0-6-0ST "Llantanam Abbey" (the loco with the misspelt name)

.

By this time, the Landsale took in only hoppers.

.

Landsales would regularly bring in coal from other pits, as the coal produced at a particular pit may not be suitable for domestic use.  

.

In addition wagonloads of 'concessionary coal' would be moved around the valleys from one pit to the landsale yard of another, to be delivered to miners homes.

.

I took the shot off the top of a 'tump' and we're looking up the Cynon Valley towards Mountain Ash.

.

The line is the mainline from NCB Penrikyber at Penrhiwceiber, and the Pontcynon stacking and blending site  that went through Mount, past the central Workshops, diesel shed, sidings, steam shed and then deep Duffryn Colliery on its way to the Phurnacite Plant at Abercwmboi.

.

The whole system was considered a public right of way by the locals, as seen here with two old biddies bringing their shopping back to Newtown from Oxford Street.

.

I'm watching your progress now...................... 

[NHY 581]

36 minutes ago, br2975 said:

Just for you Wayne, here's the Mountain Ash (Abergorki) Landsale Yard being shunted in the late 70s by Barclay 0-6-0ST "Llantanam Abbey" (the loco with the misspelt name)

.

By this time, the Landsale took in only hoppers.

.

Landsales would regularly bring in coal from other pits, as the coal produced at a particular pit may not be suitable for domestic use.  

.

In addition wagonloads of 'concessionary coal' would be moved around the valleys from one pit to the landsale yard of another, to be delivered to miners homes.

.

I took the shot off the top of a 'tump' and we're looking up the Cynon Valley towards Mountain Ash.

.

The line is the mainline from NCB Penrikyber at Penrhiwceiber, and the Pontcynon stacking and blending site  that went through Mount, past the central Workshops, diesel shed, sidings, steam shed and then deep Duffryn Colliery on its way to the Phurnacite Plant at Abercwmboi.

.

The whole system was considered a public right of way by the locals, as seen here with two old biddies bringing their shopping back to Newtown from Oxford Street.

.

I'm watching your progress now...................... 

 

Perhaps a silly question Brian but how was the coal moved from wagons to the storage bins ? 

 

Rob

 

 

[br2975]

2 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Perhaps a silly question Brian but how was the coal moved from wagons to the storage bins ? 

 

Rob

 

 

.

The wagons were emptied into an underground pit and the coal lifted using a conveyor system, if I remember correctly.

.

B.

[Captain Kernow]

16 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

The wagons were emptied into an underground pit and the coal lifted using a conveyor system, if I remember correctly.

.

B.

Very useful if you're modelling an imaginary place and don't want to put coal drops in...

 

[Wayne 37901]

@br2975

 

Thanks for the photos Brian, very useful. I don't have the room to put an underground pit and storage bins in so my landsale yard won't be served by hoppers, but hopper wagons will work along the main running line to/from the exchange yard (off scene).

 

As for getting a mini you done for the layout, who knows but I'd also need a mini @NHY 581 then as thanks for your contributions. 😅

[br2975]

When I was first married (1978/1979) , I used to walk my Border Collie 'Ninian' through the landsale yard at NCB Cwm (Llantwit) and it was very much like the stereotypical coal merchants siding(s) in most goods yards.

The yard was adjacent to the BR exchnage sidings and was shunted by the two distinctive NCB  Bagnall / Brush 0-6-0DE shunters.

In the photo we see NCB No.2 WB3074/1955 taking empty MDVs from the exchange sidings (right) to the pit (left) .

The landsale yard was behind the bushes on the right.

The yard is still there, overgrown - and a colliery dram stands beside the road, with a bench called 'codgers corner'

Edited November 27, 2023 by br2975

[NHY 581]

On 26/11/2023 at 00:31, br2975 said:

.

The wagons were emptied into an underground pit and the coal lifted using a conveyor system, if I remember correctly.

.

B.

 

Morning Brian, 

 

I'm trying to work out how Roath Coal (Newport Road ) yard transferred the coal from wagons to storage. 

Used to visit there with my father when he ordered our household coal. 

 

Rob

[03060]

6 hours ago, Wayne 37901 said:

 

As for getting a mini you done for the layout, who knows but I'd also need a mini @NHY 581 then as thanks for your contributions. 😅

 

Already available from Modelu in ... ahem ... a range of different poses ! (Tee-hee)

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product/31200/

[br2975]

6 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Morning Brian, 

 

I'm trying to work out how Roath Coal (Newport Road ) yard transferred the coal from wagons to storage. 

Used to visit there with my father when he ordered our household coal. 

 

Rob

.

I'm not too sure Rob.

.

I'll check some of my books, there may be some distance shots in John Hodges' tomes.

[br2975]

More Landsale nonsense, this time Cynheidre, Five Roads, near Llanelli.

.

 

[Wayne 37901]

Good afternoon all.

 

There's some great stuff being posted in here. I'm enjoying reading through the contributions, especially from @br2975 and @NHY 581 as they can remember this era whereas I was born quite a few years after the steam colliery railways had all finished.

 

I'm a little surprised at how much interest this seems to have on here as it's nothing more than a through shunting layout really. It's an adventure for me as I've never modelled steam before, I'm strictly a late 1980s to mid 90s diesel modeller usually.

 

Anyway, enough of my waffle.

 

A small milestone was achieved this afternoon with the last bit of track painted with a base coat for later weathering. I laid the loco shed road last night but had to wait till today to paint it.

 

I'm thinking of adding a crossing to provide vehicle access into the landsale yard, two reasons being that I can have some period road vehicles such as trucks and local delivery wagons and it'll also break up the areas of open ground. For now I've marked it in with black marker, opinions on this would be appreciated. I've seen that the builder of Blacker Lane has done similar so that's where I pinched the idea. 😁

 

Thoughts are now looking towards some groundworks and the shell of the loco shed.

 

Still no name for this yet, but it'll have address this as more progress is made.

 

Back soon.

 

Wayne

Edited November 29, 2023 by Wayne 37901

[AY Mod]

9 hours ago, br2975 said:

More Landsale nonsense, this time Cynheidre, Five Roads, near Llanelli.

.

 

 

Not wishing to distract from Wayne's topic but would you be able to tell me the significance of the Stove/Beams/Fren markings please Brian? I've seen Stove on several but not the others noted.

[br2975]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Not wishing to distract from Wayne's topic but would you be able to tell me the significance of the Stove/Beams/Fren markings please Brian? I've seen Stove on several but not the others noted.

.

Stove (Stovesse), Beans, Fren are different grades and qualities of coal produced by the pit.

.

Paul Bartlett has numerous photos of the Cynheidre internal users at:-

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/cynheidreinternalwagon

.

I suspect "Fren" is an abbreviation for "French Nuts" more common in the west Wales coalfield.

.

Different coal  seams in the same coalfield could produce different types of coal, which when graded as to size, and washed would be identified by further different names.

.

There were literally dozens of such names across the South Wales coalfield, sometimes including the name of the pit, other times not;

eg

Taff Merthyr Washed Small

Ebbw Vale Washed Small

Quality B washed Cobbles

Group 4 Large Nuts

Abercynon Dowlais washed Smalls

Penallta Washed Cobbles

Washed Peas

Ocean Small

Tirbach Anthracite Beans

Trebles

Cardiff Small Boiler Nuts

Cardiff Large Boiler Nuts

Cardiff Dowlais Large Boiler Nuts

2A Grains

1 Grains

Rheola Small

Hafodyrynys Washed Large

Untreated Small

Ocean washed 3/4" Small

Oriental Washed Cobbles

Banwen Washed Grains

Waterloo Raw Small...................

.

etc, etc, etc

.

Another anomaly is the movement of coal to Landsale Yards.

.

Most household coal in the South Wales valleys was sourced by coal merchants from pithead Landsale Yards, there were far fewer coal merchants based at local railway stations than elsewhere in Britain.

S.J. Lewis located at Nelson & Llancaiach, on the Vale of Neath / Taff Bargoed  was a prime example.

.

Let us say that NCB Twll Cach Colliery is in the Rhymney Valley and  produces mainly washed and blended small coal for industrial use, shipped out in block trains of MDV wagons.

.

That product would be unsuitable for use as house coal, yet the pit has a Landsale yard.

.

Therefore house coal could be brought into the NCB Twll Cach Landsale Yard from NCB Aberflyarff in the Cynon Valley, a pit which produces house coal.

.

The house coal would be shipped out of NCB Aberflyarff in a household coal train as far as say Radyr Yard, where it is then attached to a trainload of empties going up to NCB Twll Cach in the Rhymney Valley

.

The same would happen with 'concessionary coal' - as all miners had an allowance of free coal each year.

.

As NCB Twll Cach doesn't produce household coal, 'concessionary coal' for the miners there may originate from, say the NCB Efflew Valley Central Washery, and reach Twll Cach via say Tondu, Margam and Radyr.

.

Unlike coal merchants who delivered to the customers door,  in 1cwt bags, and tipped the contents into the customers 'coal house' (ty glo in Welsh) concessionary coal was (generally) dumped loose in the street outside the miners home, or in a lane in the rear and it was down to the miner, or his family, to bring it in.

.

The movement of coal in the South Wales Valleys was not just a case of loaded trains down to the coast, and empties back up the valleys; it was far more involved than that.

.

And I haven't mentioned the movement of coal to and from washeries, or to and from stocking or blending sites (for sweetening).

Or

The uses or restrictions of certain types of wagon, in certain areas of the coalfield.

.

Hope this brief insight helps.

.

.

PS 

Tomorrow, Thursday, 30th. November, 2023 sees the enforced closure of the Ffos-y-fran opencast mine above Merthyr Tydfil.

This is the last coal forwarding site in the South Wales coalfield

Coal is only permitted to leave by rail, using the Taff Bargoed branch from Cwmbargoed through Nelson to Ystrad Mynach and then down the Rhymney Valley to cardiff and eventually Tata Steel at Port Talbot.

There is but one train a day, Class 66 hauled HTAs from Cwmbargoed to Margam yard.

When any stockpiled coal is exhausted, and there isn't much.

That will be the end of coal trains in South Wales.

RIP - Welsh coal

.

.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by br2975

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, br2975 said:

Stove (Stovesse), Beans, Fren are different grades and qualities of coal produced by the pit.

.

I suspect "Fren" is an abbreviation for "French Nuts" more common in the west Wales coalfield.

.

Different coal  seams in the same coalfield could produce different types of coal, which when graded as to size, and washed would be identified by further different names.

 

Thanks Brian, interesting stuff.

 

I assume this was all internal traffic between pit and any processing and onto landsale rather than train loads onto the network in any form?

[br2975]

8 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Thanks Brian, interesting stuff.

 

I assume this was all internal traffic between pit and any processing and onto landsale rather than train loads onto the network in any form?

.

No, far from it, a lot was BR hauled.

.

eg

In many valleys there were 'central' washeries which (obviously) washed coal, from several collieries in that area and brought to the washery by BR, there was for example the AVCW (Aberdare Valley Central Washery) at NCB Deep Duffryn, Mountain Ash in the Cynon Valley, or another in the Ogmore Valley above Bridgend, or Maesteg above Bridgend, or say Hafodyryrnys on the former GWR Vale of Neath line, above Pontypool.

.

BR would work trainloads of coal from various pits to these washeries, and then take block trainloads of the now washed coal to various industrial customers, or for export.

.

BR would move 'household coal' or 'concessionary coal' around from one pit to another pit's Landsale Yard.

.

If a pit could or did produce coal suitable for domestic use locally, then the NCB pit loco would shunt NCB internal user wagons from the washery screens to the pit's Landsale yard in the course of its days work. 

Right up until the mid-70s and later this could often be in wooden bodied ex-PO wagons.

Edited November 29, 2023 by br2975

[The Johnster]

It's not just black rocks, you know...

 

On top of the complex, fascinating, and vanished world described so well by Brian, there was the export coal traffic to the ports, which lasted into the 70s at Swansea.  As Brian says, different pits and different seams (even at the same pit sometimes) produced coal with different qualities and attributes, in terms of calorific value, sulphur content, and the like.  And different types and makes of industrial boilers and processes were best suited to particular coals on the basis of said calorific value and sulphur content. 

 

So, Buenos Aries gasworks, for example, would have equipment that needed a specific type of coal to work at it's best efficiency, and this would be different to Bilbao Steelworks, and both would be different from a power station in Brittany.  The exact grades of coal specified by the individual customers would usually be a mix of product from different pits, so a bloc train of coal for export from a port did not run directly from a pit to the hoists at the docks, only as far as the reception yards; it would be broken up and shunted into mixed rakes of wagons from different pits to achieve the correct mixture before being shunted to the hoists and tipped into the ship's hold.  The ship on the next berth would have a different mixture.

 

That would be the culmination of a process that had begun some weeks earlier, in Cardiff's Coal Exchange building, where the first £1million dollar cheque was presented, and honoured.  A coal agent would recieve orders for x amount of coal of y calorific value and z sulphur content, and the agent would then set about ordering coal from various pits that could be mixed in the ships' holds in the way described.  The wagons would be owned by the collieries, and while one might see block trains of export coal in 'Ocean' (for example) wagons being brought to reception sidings at the docks, it was possible to see wagons from all the big companies and perhaps some of the smaller ones as well being propelled on to the hoist roads. 

 

The empties came off the hoists by gravity, and of course prior to pooling then had to be shunted out into block trains for the correct collieries; a lot of work was saved when mineral wagons were pooled!  Even then a huge amount of shunting to mix the coal was involved, much of it taking place out of sight of the passenger railway, another world of complexity gone forever.  The last of the people who worked this system have very nearly died out, and nobody has bothered to record it in any way, though there are hints of if held in museum archives in the form invoices, reciepts, and delivery notes.

 

Cardiff Docks exported 14million tons of coal in 1912, the peak year.  Let's say an average train contained 500tons and an average ship in those days could load 2,000 tons, and work out the level of traffic, about 75 trains per day for one port, which would need to send out 15 loaded ships each day, 7 or 8 per tide, and of course the ships had to come in to the port as well, 30 ships a day or more just for the coal traffic. 

 

The ships would be filthy leaving the ports, covered in dust from the tipping into the holds, and the first task once they'd dropped the pilot and were getting under way was to hose everything down.  When I was an anklebiter and taken to the seaside at Barry Island, Southerndown, Porthcawl, or Gower, there would be bands of this black dust deposited on the beaches by receding tides; there are probably still trillions of tons on the seabed of the Bristol Channel to confuse the bejaysus out of geologists in a few million years.  It wouldn't need to be put through a washery...

 

Even in the late fifties, this traffic was still intense, but it fell away very sharply over the following decade.  By the seventies, I was picking  loaded MGR trains of imported Polish and East German coal on the wharves at Barry Docks to take to Didcot.

 

 

[NHY 581]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It's not just black rocks, you know...

 

On top of the complex, fascinating, and vanished world described so well by Brian, there was the export coal traffic to the ports, which lasted into the 70s at Swansea.  As Brian says, different pits and different seams (even at the same pit sometimes) produced coal with different qualities and attributes, in terms of calorific value, sulphur content, and the like.  And different types and makes of industrial boilers and processes were best suited to particular coals on the basis of said calorific value and sulphur content. 

 

So, Buenos Aries gasworks, for example, would have equipment that needed a specific type of coal to work at it's best efficiency, and this would be different to Bilbao Steelworks, and both would be different from a power station in Brittany.  The exact grades of coal specified by the individual customers would usually be a mix of product from different pits, so a bloc train of coal for export from a port did not run directly from a pit to the hoists at the docks, only as far as the reception yards; it would be broken up and shunted into mixed rakes of wagons from different pits to achieve the correct mixture before being shunted to the hoists and tipped into the ship's hold.  The ship on the next berth would have a different mixture.

 

That would be the culmination of a process that had begun some weeks earlier, in Cardiff's Coal Exchange building, where the first £1million dollar cheque was presented, and honoured.  A coal agent would recieve orders for x amount of coal of y calorific value and z sulphur content, and the agent would then set about ordering coal from various pits that could be mixed in the ships' holds in the way described.  The wagons would be owned by the collieries, and while one might see block trains of export coal in 'Ocean' (for example) wagons being brought to reception sidings at the docks, it was possible to see wagons from all the big companies and perhaps some of the smaller ones as well being propelled on to the hoist roads. 

 

The empties came off the hoists by gravity, and of course prior to pooling then had to be shunted out into block trains for the correct collieries; a lot of work was saved when mineral wagons were pooled!  Even then a huge amount of shunting to mix the coal was involved, much of it taking place out of sight of the passenger railway, another world of complexity gone forever.  The last of the people who worked this system have very nearly died out, and nobody has bothered to record it in any way, though there are hints of if held in museum archives in the form invoices, reciepts, and delivery notes.

 

Cardiff Docks exported 14million tons of coal in 1912, the peak year.  Let's say an average train contained 500tons and an average ship in those days could load 2,000 tons, and work out the level of traffic, about 75 trains per day for one port, which would need to send out 15 loaded ships each day, 7 or 8 per tide, and of course the ships had to come in to the port as well, 30 ships a day or more just for the coal traffic. 

 

The ships would be filthy leaving the ports, covered in dust from the tipping into the holds, and the first task once they'd dropped the pilot and were getting under way was to hose everything down.  When I was an anklebiter and taken to the seaside at Barry Island, Southerndown, Porthcawl, or Gower, there would be bands of this black dust deposited on the beaches by receding tides; there are probably still trillions of tons on the seabed of the Bristol Channel to confuse the bejaysus out of geologists in a few million years.  It wouldn't need to be put through a washery...

 

Even in the late fifties, this traffic was still intense, but it fell away very sharply over the following decade.  By the seventies, I was picking  loaded MGR trains of imported Polish and East German coal on the wharves at Barry Docks to take to Didcot.

 

 

Morning Jonners, 

 

As ever, brevity personified but not sure what your magnum opus has to do with landsale yards....as being modelled by Wayne..

 

Rob

[Footy]

Very conscious recent posts have hijacked Wayne's thread, but they are fascinating and maybe worthy of their own thread?  Personally, I'd be very interested in knowing how these operating practices looked pre-nationalisation of both railways and the coal industry.  For instance, I have a feeling, but no evidence, that shared Washeries may have been less common?  Anyway,   I always find a layout that follows authentic operating practices adds an extra dimension to my appreciation of that layout.

 

But, back to the purpose of this thread, I'm looking forward to watching this layout develop.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

8 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

Morning Jonners, 

 

As ever, brevity personified but not sure what your magnum opus has to do with landsale yards....as being modelled by Wayne..

 

Rob

 

OT, moi???

[NHY 581]

18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

OT, moi???

 

QUI. VOUS. 

[br2975]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

OT, moi???

.

Pam torri'r arfer o fywyd ?

.

[Ruston]

On 27/11/2023 at 04:46, br2975 said:

When I was first married (1978/1979) , I used to walk my Border Collie 'Ninian' through the landsale yard at NCB Cwm (Llantwit) and it was very much like the stereotypical coal merchants siding(s) in most goods yards.

The yard was adjacent to the BR exchnage sidings and was shunted by the two distinctive NCB  Bagnall / Brush 0-6-0DE shunters.

In the photo we see NCB No.2 WB3074/1955 taking empty MDVs from the exchange sidings (right) to the pit (left) .

The landsale yard was behind the bushes on the right.

The yard is still there, overgrown - and a colliery dram stands beside the road, with a bench called 'codgers corner'

That loco was sold for scrap to Charlie Strong. In my 4mm world, anyway. 😉

 

[Captain Kernow]

15 minutes ago, Ruston said:

That loco was sold for scrap to Charlie Strong. In my 4mm world, anyway. 😉

 

Fantastic model, Dave - is that a scratchbuild on a Bachmann 08 chassis?