Five volunteers SUSPENDED from NYMR

[Jeremy Cumberland]

20 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

That scenario would just about ice the NYMR's cake.

• HMRC threaten to prosecute NYMR PLC for tax evasion (note, not avoidance);

Well, yes, it's possible - which is why I mentioned it - but I don't think it sounds at all likely. Since my earlier post I've checked who the NYMR PLC shareholders are, and there is only the Trust (there are other shares owned by individual supporters, but those shareholders don't receive dividends or have voting rights). There is no reason for NYMR PLC to wish to make a profit, and plenty of perfectly legal ways of ensuring it doesn't, that I can't imagine this annual pass thing being part of any tax avoidance scheme.

 

Since the Trust's primary charitable aim is to support the North York Moors Railway, I can't see the Charity Commissioners objecting either.

 

Really, although the arrangement seems somehow weird, I can't find anything wrong in it, except that if the NYMR have misjudged things, they might now have to accommodate more passengers for no extra revenue.

[Northmoor]

Hopefully everyone reading this realises that I was being flippant about a hypothetical situation and not suggesting the NYMR actually HAS done anything untoward.  I have no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it has.  Note though that when it comes to both tax and the law, there are very few absolutes and "professionals" in both fields have been known to give organisations and individuals advice, which turns out later to be expensively wrong.

Edited May 8 by Northmoor

[jjb1970]

Ultimately these things can only get a definitive answer if tested in court. One of my pet hates is dealing with government departments who when asked about rules and regulations offer some vague answer which say's nothing and when pressed resort to 'that can only be answered in court'. OK, I get there are always scenarios which are subject to differing interpretation (though well drafted laws should minimize this unless it is deliberate) but if governments responsible for drafting and enacting laws can't give a straight answer on what they mean then how is anyone else meant to figure it all out?

[Chris M]

I'm having a holiday in Pickering this year. As I live over 3 hours drive away from NYMR being able to return as often as I like isn't much use. I could afford to spend £99 on a pair of tickets if I wanted but feel it is just too much. The couple we are going with feel exactly the same. That's four potential customers the NYMR has thrown away with its ticket price policy. Yes I know there are cheaper returns for shorter journeys but the headline price kind of puts me off looking further. Anyway its more interesting to see a train working through the countryside than it is to be riding in it.  I'm more likely to visit a few places and have a few walks near the line than buy a freedom of the line ticket.

 

A freedom of the line ticket for one day booked more than three days in advance on the Severn Valley Railway would cost £50 for two tickets - pretty much half the price of the NYMR. The SVR is 16 miles whereas the NYMR is 24 miles from Pickering to Whitby. 

[Lemmy282]

You are not the only one to feel this. Was at Grosmont a couple of weeks ago when a couple went to buy tickets. When told the price they were quite shocked , and when told that they could come back as often as they liked for a year, they replied that they were on holiday from the south coast so wouldn't be back in the area.  Anyway they didn't get tickets, so revenue lost!

[JeremyC]

Is the NYMR really out of step on pricing? The Welsh Highland is 25 miles long and a return for Caernarfon to Porthmadoc is £66 each

Edited May 10 by JeremyC

[pete_mcfarlane]

I suspect the argument in both cases is 'we fill the trains at that price'

[JeremyC]

The year pass thing is done by other attractions, last year my wife and I visited Beamish. The entry tickets there are pay once and visit for a whole year free of charge.

[AY Mod]

On 09/05/2024 at 06:06, Chris M said:

I'm having a holiday in Pickering this year. As I live over 3 hours drive away from NYMR being able to return as often as I like isn't much use. I could afford to spend £99 on a pair of tickets if I wanted but feel it is just too much. The couple we are going with feel exactly the same. That's four potential customers the NYMR has thrown away with its ticket price policy. Yes I know there are cheaper returns for shorter journeys but the headline price kind of puts me off looking further. Anyway its more interesting to see a train working through the countryside than it is to be riding in it.  I'm more likely to visit a few places and have a few walks near the line than buy a freedom of the line ticket.

 

A freedom of the line ticket for one day booked more than three days in advance on the Severn Valley Railway would cost £50 for two tickets - pretty much half the price of the NYMR. The SVR is 16 miles whereas the NYMR is 24 miles from Pickering to Whitby. 

 

Being from similar areas we would probably make similar comparative assessments in VFM terms

 

 

 

Of course there are reasons for wanting to or being able to travel on a specific line beyond the price per mile and many much shorter lines are disproportionately dearer but I thought I'd quickly look at some of the big names. Because it's good value we often take guests on the SVR for a pleasant run. Equally we could take them to the GCR but don't.

[Michael Hodgson]

21 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

The year pass thing is done by other attractions, last year my wife and I visited Beamish. The entry tickets there are pay once and visit for a whole year free of charge.

 

Yes, I think Bletchley Park was doing the same.

[009 micro modeller]

46 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

Is the NYMR really out of step on pricing? The Welsh Highland is 25 miles long and a return for Caernarfon to Porthmadoc is £66 each

Not to mention National Rail ticket prices (though they aren’t a discretionary spend)…

 

34 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

The year pass thing is done by other attractions, last year my wife and I visited Beamish. The entry tickets there are pay once and visit for a whole year free of charge.

Exactly, and for a lot of museums it’s a good way to collect Gift Aid on tickets without actually increasing the cost to the visitor. I think the debate here is around whether it’s sensible to do it for a visitor attraction where the main (and for some people only) part of their visit is a ride, given the capacity issues this could create.

[Michael Hodgson]

12 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Being from similar areas we would probably make similar comparative assessments in VFM terms

 

 

 

Of course there are reasons for wanting to or being able to travel on a specific line beyond the price per mile and many much shorter lines are disproportionately dearer but I thought I'd quickly look at some of the big names.

 

GCR(N) is currently not running at all.

 

My question on the GCR reunification to Ruddington is whether the punters will be prepared to pay that same rate per mile when the total milage is increased to 18.25, or will they have to bring it down to something close to what the other longer lines are charging?

 

In any case the northern extension is a long single track line, and timetabling options will presumably mean that a less frequent service will be feasible than is possible on the Loughboro-Rothley section.

 

Likewise Mid-Norfolk aims to extend to northwards to County School and needs repairs at the other end before it can resume running through to Wymondham.

 

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

33 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Being from similar areas we would probably make similar comparative assessments in VFM terms

 

 

 

Of course there are reasons for wanting to or being able to travel on a specific line beyond the price per mile and many much shorter lines are disproportionately dearer but I thought I'd quickly look at some of the big names. Because it's good value we often take guests on the SVR for a pleasant run. Equally we could take them to the GCR but don't.

That's very informative. Two thoughts occur to me:

1. I've said before that the NYMR annual pass might be a poor business model, and the table seems to support that assertion. If a person gift aids their "donation", then the NYMR will receive £62, but this is still onluy £1.30 a mile for one return trip, firmly in the middle ground. Yet for this £62 (or a non-gift-aided £49.50) the passenger is entitled to unlimited travel, so if lots of people people actually make use of the annual pass facility, the income per mile quickly reduces.
2. Someone only wanting a day ticket and asked to pay £49.50 for an annual pass may well think that if £49.50 is the correct rate for an annual pass, then it must be shockingly expensive for a day ticket, and so choose not to buy. However, we can see from the table that £49.50 is actually a reasonable rate for a day ticket given the mileage.

It is also worth pointing out that children travel free on the NYMR. Rates for children and families vary enormously between different railways. The NYMR fares now look to me to be rather good value, even though at first glance they appear to be rather expensive.

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

The NYMR fares now look to me to be rather good value, even though at first glance they appear to be rather expensive.

 

Most lines on the list have something to offer in terms of destination and journey appeal and when taking non-enthusiasts into account it's why I struggle to justify the GC in VFM beyond a nice reservoir view. Another aspect to look at is journey duration; will do that some point.

 

Great for galas etc. though.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Most lines on the list have something to offer in terms of destination and journey appeal and when taking non-enthusiasts into account it's why I struggle to justify the GC in VFM beyond a nice reservoir view.

Even less on the Ruddington section.

Probably why the GCR (as well as the other preserved lines) have so many WW2 weekends, bus rallies, traction engines, beer festivals etc.

Sometimes I go to Quorn for the Railwayana swapmeet without actually taking a train ride.

 

Nothing strikes me as a special attraction at the KWVR (unless you're particularly into the Bronte sisters) or locations like East Grinstead.  Both lines are long enough to give a pleasant ride through the English countryside though.

[pete_mcfarlane]

Where the value thing changes is on the lines like the SVR and GCR where your ticket is a day rover, and you can travel up and down all day. But I guess that very few 'normals' do that. 

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

But I guess that very few 'normals' do that.

 

Normals quite like The Engine House but, as you say, as part of a return journey with another stop-off. Canny move as families go to the cafe and buy kids something.

[Northmoor]

7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Most lines on the list have something to offer in terms of destination and journey appeal and when taking non-enthusiasts into account it's why I struggle to justify the GC in VFM beyond a nice reservoir view. Another aspect to look at is journey duration; will do that some point.

This Andy is why most of the New Generation lines will never achieve their ambitions.  The journey on too many could be best described as, "Going from nowhere, to nowhere, through nowhere in particular".  The general public won't pay much for that nor in any great numbers.

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Where the value thing changes is on the lines like the SVR and GCR where your ticket is a day rover, and you can travel up and down all day. But I guess that very few 'normals' do that. 

 

Or alternatively, break the journey for lunch in Bridgnorth, Highley or Arley. If I go to the MHR I normally do it so I have lunch in Arlesford. If it goes longer then no problem, just get a later train. I like to break the journey at Ropley but if something has to be cut from the visit then it is Ropley rather than lunch.

 

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

This Andy is why most of the New Generation lines will never achieve their ambitions.  The journey on too many could be best described as, "Going from nowhere, to nowhere, through nowhere in particular".  The general public won't pay much for that nor in any great numbers.

I've heard punters asking at the booking office for "a return to wherever the little train goes to please"

[rogerzilla]

SVR only costs the same per mile as an open return from Swindon to London 🤣

[298]

On 10/05/2024 at 13:48, JeremyC said:

Is the NYMR really out of step on pricing? The Welsh Highland is 25 miles long and a return for Caernarfon to Porthmadoc is £66 each

 

I had seen the FR/WHR being criticised at first glance for still running a "Covid" service with named trains, they might shift as many people as before but lack the appearance of a turn up and go transport system, someone I work with used to go on holiday in the area with his family when a child and since they didn't have a car they used the FR to get to civilisation.

 

21 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Normals quite like The Engine House but, as you say, as part of a return journey with another stop-off. Canny move as families go to the cafe and buy kids something.

 

To do that you need a comprehensible timetable (see above) and something to see. I recall at a railway a few years ago we got chinged gala fares for basically a round trip because it was a lengthy walk into the town at the other end and didn't spend all day riding on the trains, and have since avoided another railway for the same reason because we only had time for a quick visit. Still, at least I got to see a man in a field up a stepladder...

[enginelane]

On 06/05/2024 at 10:05, 5944 said:

Single tickets are available, but not advertised on the website. Apparently revenue was up 23% last year - funnily enough, a very similar amount to the gift aid claimed back from £49 entry passes rather than travel ticket sales. Passenger numbers have stayed the same.

If you want a single ticket approach the Train Ticket Inspector. They have some discretion on charging for a ticket. 

[RJS1977]

On 10/05/2024 at 18:18, Michael Hodgson said:

or locations like East Grinstead.  Both lines are long enough to give a pleasant ride through the English countryside though.

 

But that depends on whether East Grinstead is your starting point or your destination. For those arriving at the Bluebell by public transport, particularly from the London direction, East Grinstead is the gateway, not the destination. Sheffield Park by contrast is within walking distance of the NT property of the same name if anyone wants an actual "destination" for their journey.

[St Enodoc]

On 08/05/2024 at 20:02, jjb1970 said:

They do spot checks. A friend recieved a rather intimidating letter, I think he did the usual thing of thinking 'free money for a museum, capital idea!' and ticked the box without thinking. I never tick for obvious reasons in my current circumstances, though I say why I can't agree (I am not a UK taxpayer).

Interestingly, on my last visit to the UK I visited a large, long-established museum and as a UK taxpayer (company pensions) I tried to claim gift aid. However, computer says no - it insisted that I enter my UK address, which of course I don't have.