Kinesis control system

[JSpencer]

4 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

They had a WiFi router in the presentation area ( Kinesis Theatre).

It was positioned on top of the wall, above the presentation screens.

The tech chap giving the first presentation on Saturday morning, pointed it out when describing how the various elements of the system communicated with each other…….WiFi clearly involved.

 

 

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So I guess anyone taking it to a show would need to use their Telephone as a personal wifi hotspot.

 

If I compare this to z21, while the z21 looks to be a cheaper package, Kinisis probably has the advantage in having fewer boxes and cables.

I was looking at the NCE powercab earlier in the year as a means to have a controler that I can plug in and use on my main layout (avoid the faff of getting the PC out as I currently do with my dated Hornby system) and then un-plugging and using it to run DCC OO-9 locos on my new mini layout that serves as a Xmas decoration in the lounge.

 

My thoughts are that maybe Kinisis has this cabling with hand held simplicity of the NCE, with the possibility to then plug it in and run the bigger layout from the PC + handheld + telephone as required. 

 

[spamcan61]

I'm not seeing any claims for NMRA compliance for this system, seems unusual, even Hornby managed it with the Elite.

[JohnR]

37 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

So I guess anyone taking it to a show would need to use their Telephone as a personal wifi hotspot.

 

 

 

Thats not how WiFi works. Its how most of us use it in our homes, but thats not how it has to work everywhere. 

[prtrainman]

I currently use Z21 with approx 30 locos. One of the things I like about it is that you can have a 'library' of loco photos & just select the one you want to operate by touching the relevant loco photo on screen. Just wondering if you can do similar with Kinesis?

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, prtrainman said:

I currently use Z21 with approx 30 locos. One of the things I like about it is that you can have a 'library' of loco photos & just select the one you want to operate by touching the relevant loco photo on screen. Just wondering if you can do similar with Kinesis?

I don't see how that would work with a 2 line display on a handset, maybe if you have a PC connected or more likely the phone app. as well it's doable.

Edited November 27, 2023 by spamcan61

[StoneMonkey78]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

I don't see how that would work with a 2 line display on a handset, maybe if you have a PC connected or more likely the phone app. as well it's doable.

It's the hub that has a 2-line display - the handset has a 5-line display.

[StoneMonkey78]

7 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

It's not clear to me whether they've re-invented WiFi in their own way or just using 802.11n/a/ac/ax as I would expect.

What I took from the demonstration was the wi-fi was limited to the 2.4GHz band as this provided more than sufficient bandwidth for the handset(s) to talk with the base-station. What was not clear was whether phone or tablets running the app were talking direct to the Kenesis base-station, or whether everything need to be connected to a separate hub - there was a separate wi-fi WAP above the demo, but it was not apparent whether this was part of the controller setup, or was just being used to connect to the many wifi cameras that were in use around the demo stand. What the demonstrator did stress was the ability to use cheap and cheerful phones/tablets with the system from which I inferred that older app-running hardware that didn't have 5GHz or 9.6GHz bands, could still be used.

[davepallant]

4 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

So I guess anyone taking it to a show would need to use their Telephone as a personal wifi hotspot.

 

 

I would hope that the Kenesis Hub has its own wifi router built in. There are numerous cheap modules that Bachmann could have used.

 

The handset was introduced as using its own 2.4GHz implementation which would not be Wifi as it would eat through batteries. It would have to be something similar to Zigbee or Bluetooth hopping around different frequencies trying to find gaps between the wifi channels. The test will be whether there is as little interference over greater distances (larger layouts) in smaller halls surrounded by wifi hubs, hotspots and other layouts running wifi and 2.4GHz systems. There were a lot of wifi routers at Warley, many of the shops had multiple and there were several layouts that were using wifi. However Warley is a lot bigger than the average model railway show hall!

[stephennicholson]

On 25/11/2023 at 12:03, spamcan61 said:

The blurb states 'the Hub connects to a PC running Railcontroller' but it's not clear if that's mandatory or optional.

 

A PC is mandatory as it holds the data.

Edited November 27, 2023 by stephennicholson
typo

[spamcan61]

4 minutes ago, stephennicholson said:

 

A PC is mandatory as it holds the data.

This is starting to sound expensive then.

[stephennicholson]

Just now, spamcan61 said:

This is starting to sound expensive then.

In the demo, they did emphasise that a 15 year old laptop would do. ie it didnt have to be an expensive high spec computer.  Also suggested older second hand smart phones would be ok.

[spamcan61]

6 minutes ago, stephennicholson said:

In the demo, they did emphasise that a 15 year old laptop would do. ie it didnt have to be an expensive high spec computer.  Also suggested older second hand smart phones would be ok.

Ah right, according to the relevant web page Railcontroller works all the way back to Win XP 32bit, so any old junk should work then. 

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/page/railcontroller

 

This does make the overall system seem rather complex and messy with Hub, remote controller, PC and a phone if you want a decent size wireless display.

[StoneMonkey78]

2 hours ago, davepallant said:

 

The handset was introduced as using its own 2.4GHz implementation which would not be Wifi as it would eat through batteries.

The demonstrator described the battery as a heavy duty lithium rechargeable - an off-the-shelf battery normally used in mobile phones. Full charge of a new battery was described as having a runtime of 12 hours with a fully discharged battery taking 2-3 hours to recharge; he acknowledged that over time the battery duration would fall off. My wifi-connected mobile phone lasts 14-16 hours, so I don't know why the handset could not be wifi connected given that it is not running a large battery-draining screen like a phone would?

[StoneMonkey78]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

This does make the overall system seem rather complex and messy with Hub, remote controller, PC and a phone if you want a decent size wireless display.

Another way at looking at this is that Bachmann is trying to offer a system that is scalable to meet all users' needs from the basic single operator to the complex multi-user club layout.

 

At its simplest (cheapest) buy just the hub, load the Railcontroller on any (old) computer, and run locos from any suitable phone. Price for this setup wasn't mentioned.

 

At the top end, buy the hub, have multiple Railcontroller laptops as necessary, up to five handhelds, and 50 phone/tablets running the app, each with up to 3 controllers at a time. I realise that on the grand scale 2A ain't going to cut it, but the demonstrator made it clear there was a booster unit in development.

[Izzy]

There are plenty of wi-fi handsets around using various battery types. My Gaugemaster uses AAA rechargables and the benefit here is that a spare set means charging can be done without the need to 'tether' the handset and thus little downtime if it's in use when they need charging. I believe it has been said that a charging dock will be an alternative. This is an important aspect I feel. Tethered handsets never run out of juice just when you want to use them.

 

Of greater importance perhaps is the question of what the system can deliver without the Railcontroller software. The basic system sold will be the Kinesis base/hub plus handset. What will this allow?  Just to run locos? Can phones/tablets connect using the app and do the same. Anything else? CV programming either POM or via the program track outputs? Accessory control?  Or is this all reliant on running Railcontroller via a laptop?  

 

There's no info on the Bachmann site I can find at present, but this all starts to feel like a Dynamis replacement /upgrade where the infared has gone wi-fi and the rest is being thought up as it goes along. Hope I'm wrong because £400 for basic 2 amp DCC control is not cheap.

 

Bob

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, Izzy said:

……..Of greater importance perhaps is the question of what the system can deliver without the Railcontroller software.
The basic system sold will be the Kinesis base/hub plus handset.
 

What will this allow?  Just to run locos? Can phones/tablets connect using the app and do the same. Anything else? CV programming either POM or via the program track outputs? Accessory control?  Or is this all reliant on running Railcontroller via a laptop?  …….

The basic system sold is everything……….the Hub base station, the Edge wireless handset, the RailController software (full fat edition) with lifetime updates and support, plus use of the free app (both Android and iOS versions).

It’s a complete package.

The only extra you may want at launch, is an additional booster, if your layout demands require it.

Any dumb booster will work, but a high output Kinesis booster is in development, we are told.

What will it allow?
Everything the system is capable of, from running trains, layout control of routes and signals, control of other DCC activated accessories, operation of user programmed operational sequences (e.g. shuttle operations, setting route sequences etc,) sequential control of sets of multi-aspect signals, CV programming inc. POM etc.

There is a dedicated programming track output.

 

It looks like you will need to be running RailController to set up the layout diagrams, but signals, points and route control, using an interactive track diagram can also be done via the app.

Simply physically rotating your smartphone or tablet from portrait to landscape orientation, automatically switches the display from throttle to layout diagram mode.

Rotate it back and the app flips straight back to throttle mode.

 

 

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Edited November 28, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[StoneMonkey78]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Simply physically rotating your smartphone or tablet from portrait to landscape orientation, automatically switches the display from throttle to layout diagram mode.

Rotate it back and the app flips straight back to throttle mode.

Whilst you are correct regarding the app on a phone, the impression given at the demonstration I saw was that a tablet could not only have 3 throttles simultaneously displayed on screen (without the need to swipe left/right as per the phone), or one throttle and the layout diagram. Of course that could just be a salesman getting carried away as he didn't have a tablet on hand to demonstrate this!

[Izzy]

So to be clear, the app can run without Railcontroller also running on a connected laptop etc. Does this also apply to phones/tablets? Just trying to get a sense of it all from the info posted so far. Appreciate that’s what we are all attempting to do!

 

Bob

[StoneMonkey78]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

So to be clear, the app can run without Railcontroller also running on a connected laptop etc. Does this also apply to phones/tablets? Just trying to get a sense of it all from the info posted so far. Appreciate that’s what we are all attempting to do!

 

Bob

What I took from the demo was that without Railcontroller, the app would only give throttle control. When the app is used to control accessories it is doing so as a remote for the layout control part of Railcontroller.

[Ron Ron Ron]

A couple of other questions I didn’t ask……

 

RailCom?  There was no mention of whether the system was RailCom enabled.

[EDIT:]  Bachmann have since confirmed there is no RailCom or RailCom Plus capability 

 

Booster connection?

Does the Hub have a dedicated output for connecting boosters, either a NMRA standard Power Station Interface (C, D, E connections), or a proprietary booster bus connection?

….or will any booster only be able to take its input from the track output of the Hub?

 

 

 

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Edited January 26 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

A little bit of info is now on the Bachmann web site....

 

https://news.Bachmann.co.uk/2023/11/Bachmann-kinesis-model-railway-control-redefined/?utm_source=Bachmann+Europe+Railway+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7e678110b2-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_rail-arrivals-31-07-23_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b9dcd9c565-7e678110b2-465733694

 

 

"Built around Bachmann’s RailController computer control software, the Kinesis system provides control via PC, App or the wireless Kinesis Edge Handset.

 

The Kinesis Wireless DCC System Starter Pack will be released in 2024 with a Recommend Retail Price of £399.95.

Each Starter Pack includes a Kinesis Hub DCC Base Station, a Kinesis Edge Wireless Handset and a full licensed copy of RailController software, allowing users to operate their model railway with DCC via PC, App or with the Edge Handset, or with any combination of these – with operation synchronised across all devices so that multiple devices can be used simultaneously.

 

The Hub DCC Base Station is central to the Kinesis system, with 2.4GHz wireless capability and built-in Wi-Fi and USB connectivity.

The Hub provides outputs to the main track and programming track and can be connected to a PC running RailController."

 

"Whilst the Edge and Hub can be used together as a standalone system, connect the Hub to a PC running RailController software and the Edge handset becomes even more versatile.

 

Sophisticated programs can be written using RailController and activated using the Edge, and locomotives, points and accessories can be downloaded from RailController and accessed instantly from the Edge handset.

 

With a range of up to 50 Metres, the wireless handset provides up to 12 hours of use and is chargeable via the USB port, with an optional charging dock available separately.

Up to five Edge handsets can be used with one Hub Base Station and additional handsets will be available to purchase separately.".

 

 

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[NoggintheNog]

As I thought earlier.

 

I do think its physical design leaves a lot to be desired, but that is a system that has everything you may need in one. Add in railcontroller for routing and automated running, use an app for visitors to control trains on your layout, and have a controller and base station for everything else.

 

In that context, its decent value too. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 02/12/2023 at 13:17, NoggintheNog said:

As I thought earlier.

 

I do think its physical design leaves a lot to be desired, but that is a system that has everything you may need in one. Add in railcontroller for routing and automated running, use an app for visitors to control trains on your layout, and have a controller and base station for everything else.

 

In that context, its decent value too. 

 

 

In terms of value, I've just had a look at competing, wireless DCC systems, at typical UK retail prices ( inc. discounts)….

 

Digitrax Evolution Xpress Duplex = £570 - £595   (the standard non-wireless version = £395 - £417)

 

Gaugemaster (MRC) Prodigy Advance2 Wireless = Out of stock/not in production  (non-wireless version = £395 - £465)

 

Lenz Set 101 Wireless = £523 +   (non-wireless Set 101 = £350 - £390)

 

Digitrax Evolution Express Advanced - Duplex = £595   (non-wireless version £425)

 

NCE PowerPro Wireless = £725 (not approved for use in the UK)  (non-wireless PowerPro = £480 - £490)

 

Roco Z21 with WiFi MultiMaus = £570

 

 

Further more, to be able use App control, on a phone or tablet (iPad etc), all the above, apart from the Roco Z21 and Bachmann Kinesis, require an additional WiFi electronic module, costing another £100 or more on top.

 

With savings of anything from £180 to £385, the Kinesis with an  r.r.p. of £395  (EDIT: ….and currently being listed at a pre- order price of £340 )  which includes RailController, does look to be very good value, before addressing that limited 2amp track output.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited January 26 by Ron Ron Ron

[JR_P]

I do like the sound of this new piece of kit and I am overdue an upgrade to my deteriorating GM Prodigy Express2….

 

This thread also alerted me to the presence of the z21 system, which I seem to vaguely recall the existence of, but my current system handset was in better condition then so never really paid much attention!

 

Having moved house recently, my railway room is now in an outbuilding beyond the range of our household WiFi network, so the question for me is (and having read this thread, it still isn’t clear to me!), do I need a household WiFi network to use the ‘wireless’ aspects of the handset and/or RailController on the laptop???

 

…. or is the “built-in WiFi connectivity” referred to in the blurb it’s own WiFi network???

 

 

[JSpencer]

I am wondering but does anyone know if Kinesis can handle loco detection units?

 

I have seen nothing in anything published so far nor do Bachmann do there own detection units (unlike Z21). This is an important consideration of my next DCC system.