Kinesis control system

[Oldddudders]

10 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

As I understand it, a loco just has to be stationary in order to use POM. 

I have just reprogrammed CVs 3 & 4 on my X3826 Mistral Picasso while it was moving. 

[Garry D100]

Interesting that Gaugemaster have announced pricing for their forthcoming Infinity DCC system today.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/gaugemaster-present-infinity

 

A coincidence? Surely not :-)

[Ravenser]

So we now have three next generation digital systems, from three different major names in the British hobby, all developed in-house in Britain.

 

The days of selling US and German systems, rebadged or otherwise, seem to be over

[JohnR]

5 hours ago, Garry D100 said:

Interesting that Gaugemaster have announced pricing for their forthcoming Infinity DCC system today.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/gaugemaster-present-infinity

 

A coincidence? Surely not :-)

All the manufacturers are at Warley, so it's natural they will all be making announcements this weekend.

[Izzy]

What seems clear is that all three systems take a different approach so there will be choices to be made between them. The Kinesis is to my mind designed to be an alternative to the Z21 and in that respect is probably the most flexible. My initial reaction is that I would choose it in preference to the other two. But as always the devil will be in the detail.

 

Bob

[298]

7 hours ago, Erixtar1992 said:

2 amp is a bit limp, so the £400 price tag already is going to go up from needing a booster for plenty.

 

using your phone to control trains is awful imo, physical buttons mean no need to look at it once you are used to it, so its nice theyve done their own controller

 

 

You'd have to have a pretty big home layout to trouble 2 amps, although it would help to divide it to decrease the initial current draw at start-up. The draw from sound decoders is one thing but I've found that it is a lot less for the new generation of sound chips than the old clunkers of 15 years ago. 

 

I found using the EngineDriver app at a Freemo meet really easy to use with an Android phone because you can use the volume buttons as the speed control.

 

£400 quid tho? What the hobby needs is a £200 system without any fancy gimmicks, such as a Dynamis with a cable.... 

 

[woodenhead]

I was watching a demo (outside of the main one) and the Bachmann chap was talking about consists and showing how a quick consist can be set up and the unit seemed to be able to make two locos on parallel tracks move together automatically but when not in consist they had very different speed profiles.

 

But I am not a big font of knowledge here and I might have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

[NIK]

Hi,

 

The Railcontroller info in the first post says it has a scale speed loco database.

 

Maybe the system can use that (with some extra info?) to calculate what speed steps for the DCC command station to send to each loco to keep them speed matched.

 

Regards

 

Nik

[RFS]

12 minutes ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

The Railcontroller info in the first post says it has a scale speed loco database.

 

Maybe the system can use that (with some extra info?) to calculate what speed steps for the DCC command station to send to each loco to keep them speed matched.

 

Regards

 

Nik

 

Current automation software (such as Traincontroller which I use) creates a speed profile for each locomotive. If you set up a consist, it's done in TC not in the DCC command station and called a "train-set". In this mode, each loco in the train-set is driven independently. So if you run the train-set at, say, 50mph, then TC will drive each loco at the speed step that corresponds to 50mph in its individual profile. So it can be that all locos are running on a different speed step. Maximum speed of the train-set is that of the slowest loco.  Don't know iTrain but I suspect it does something similar. It means you don't have to speed match anything, just profile each loco once.

[E100]

I've got to be honest I'm really not sure who this is aimed at (having watched a full demo in person and asked questions). It feels somewhat similar to the DCC concepts Aegis in that it's a nice product but better solutions exist when the overall price point is taken into consideration. The 2 amp does feel especially low and would quickly need boosting for all but the smallest layouts.

 

On the face of it, it's a niceish DCC command control setup with the added bonus of app control but still a already very dated looking handset (why do so many systems use something that looks from the 90's! Is this better than the Z21 with all it's functionality and compatibility across different standards with app control and several different handset options - I'm not so sure? It does allow for some nice sequences to be run but again using the handset to record and I do think that is it's USP, though I think iTrain would be a better all round solution than Railmaster and driving automation through that for anyone who seriously wants to automate things. Consisting is easily done if that's a common thing you do.

 

I've probably answered my own question somewhat but I still think that for my money there are much better systems out there at similar price points.

Edited November 25, 2023 by E100
Making it read better

[Pmorgancym]

I think I'd be expecting more of a halfway house system to hm7000, maybe not Bluetooth chios, but a Bluetooth base stating, and a front end working of an andriod/apple device.  400quid for a handset that looks about 2010 seems a bit too much.

[NBL]

1 hour ago, E100 said:

I've got to be honest I'm really not sure who this is aimed at (having watched a full demo in person and asked questions). It feels somewhat similar to the DCC concepts Aegis in that it's a nice product but better solutions exist when the overall price point is taken into consideration. The 2 amp does feel especially low and would quickly need boosting for all but the smallest layouts.

 

On the face of it, it's a niceish DCC command control setup with the added bonus of app control but still a already very dated looking handset (why do so many systems use something that looks from the 90's! Is this better than the Z21 with all it's functionality and compatibility across different standards with app control and several different handset options - I'm not so sure? It does allow for some nice sequences to be run but again using the handset to record and I do think that is it's USP, though I think iTrain would be a better all round solution than Railmaster and driving automation through that for anyone who seriously wants to automate things. Consisting is easily done if that's a common thing you do.

 

I've probably answered my own question somewhat but I still think that for my money there are much better systems out there at similar price points.

My friends exhibition layout, 28ft long, double track with a 6 road fiddle yard is started up each morning of an exhibition with a minimum of 8 sound fitted locos, along with a number of accessory decoders.  

 

All from a bog standard NCE PowerCab with 2 amp output, no separate power districts, never had a problem at all on start up, or on running 3 trains at a time, sometimes double-headed.  The locos and a lot of the stock are kitbuilt from brass or whitemetal.

 

The wiring though is rated correctly for the max output amps of the PowerCab.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I sat through one of the Kinesis presentations, in Bachmann’s “Kinesis Theatre” and saw the demo set up on the outside of the Bachmann stand.

 

First impressions were, yes the Edge handset looked dated, the power output a bit low and I wondered where was the progression?

 

Following the presentation and after having a chat with the developer,  I think there is plenty of value in this system.

Firstly, it’s just the start of a development line, with more to come.

 

The starter set comes with both the Edge handset, the Hub command station and a full edition of an expanded and improved RailController software package.

There are free Android and iOS apps for use in smartphones or tablets (e.g. i Pad).

 

Updating is almost automatic.

The “Hub” command station automatically checks for updates (both software and firmware) each time it boots up and downloads and stores them.

It will indicate updates are ready in the PC based RailController software and on the Android and iOS apps.

You can then select to update and the Hub will pass the updates over to your PC, smart devices or Edge handset

 

Speed matching for consisting has been made much easier.

The demo of running consists, side by side on adjacent tracks, is meant to show how fine adjustments can be made to precisely match speeds, graphically in the software and app, rather than fannying about with inputting CV values directly.

 

The extra set of  buttons on the handset, are for function operation,, rather than having to press a shift key first, in order to select a function and then shift back again afterwards to address a different loco.

I agree it looks a bit cumbersome and dated in the 2020’s.

The handset does use proper clicks buttons though, rather than those horrid rubber membrane types, used on certain other brands and there are a couple of additional buttons on the side of the handset for rapid access to……something or other? (I can’t remember….I think it included shunting mode? )

 

Any dumb Booster can be used to increase track power, but there’s a Kinesis booster in development.

Up to 10 amps for large scale was mentioned, if I heard correctly?

 

The system will set all DCC operated points to a stored default configuration on system start up.

This is user defined, so you have control over this.

Again, not unique to this system.

 

As with many newer systems, buttons are displayed with allocated function names, instead of numbers, in the app and on the PC screen.

On the Edge handset, the function buttons are just labelled with numbers, but when selected, the function name is displayed on the screen.

 

If using the app as a throttle, just physically rotating the phone or tablet to a landscape orientation, will switch the screen from throttle to the layout diagram, to allow switching of points and signals.

Rotate it back to portrait and it automatically flips back to the throttle in use.

 

The system can control multi-aspect signals (up to 4 aspect) and automatically cascades the signal aspect sequence over a series of successive signals.

Other, more basic or dated set ups require a separate add-on signal module to do this, unless you have a software package to do the job for you.

 

As already mentioned by others, automated sequences can be programmed, including shuttle operation, cascading route selection etc.

 

 

My personal opinion at first glance?

Although in most respects, it’s still behind the likes of z/Z21, ECoS and CabControl, as a complete package, this new system has some legs.

The suggested  r.r.p. of £399  includes the RailController software package, with free ongoing updates, that the Bachmann guy reckons is going to be somewhere between RR&Co’s Bronze and Silver packages in capability.

He suggested looking at the price of those products and the cost of updating them.

 

They also have a development pipeline to provide more functionality over the next year or two.

A lot of the system functions, such as CV adjustments have been neatly put behind a useful GUI and use of plain language, but IMHO they haven’t gone far enough in this regard. Especially with the old style physical Edge handset.

System updating appears to be far easier than the clunky methods on some other systems.

 

Kinesis is just another system that again demonstrates that old generation systems such as NCE, Digitrax and Lenz have been well and truly left in the dust.

I will watch this with interest.

 

 

.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[E100]

8 hours ago, NBL said:

My friends exhibition layout, 28ft long, double track with a 6 road fiddle yard is started up each morning of an exhibition with a minimum of 8 sound fitted locos, along with a number of accessory decoders.  

 

All from a bog standard NCE PowerCab with 2 amp output, no separate power districts, never had a problem at all on start up, or on running 3 trains at a time, sometimes double-headed.  The locos and a lot of the stock are kitbuilt from brass or whitemetal.

 

The wiring though is rated correctly for the max output amps of the PowerCab.

That’s good to know and understand. I think part of my thinking does come from the increasing number of power bank fitted locos needing quite a large amount to start up without overloading but then again maybe that’s a case of having manual switches for each power district so only a few are started at the same time which is a very simple fix.

[JimFin]

This bit of their words concerns me - "2.4GHz wireless capability and built-in Wi-Fi and USB connectivity"

 

They are saying 2.4GHz wireless capability as a separate feature to built in WiFi. Apart from WiFi - the only wireless capability that operates in that spectrum is Bluetooth.

 

My interpretation then is that this is based round Bluetooth technology for the controller and would also facilitate other mobile devices with the appropriate app. 

 

My experience of Bluetooth is not great being subject to interference from many sources.

 

Can anyone who was there confirm if this was discussed in the presentation? 

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 26/11/2023 at 08:50, JimFin said:

This bit of their words concerns me - "2.4GHz wireless capability and built-in Wi-Fi and USB connectivity"

 

They are saying 2.4GHz wireless capability as a separate feature to built in WiFi. Apart from WiFi - the only wireless capability that operates in that spectrum is Bluetooth.

 

My interpretation then is that this is based round Bluetooth technology for the controller and would also facilitate other mobile devices with the appropriate app. 

 

My experience of Bluetooth is not great being subject to interference from many sources.

 

Can anyone who was there confirm if this was discussed in the presentation? 

Not my area of expertise, but some points.

There was no mention of Bluetooth specifically, in the presentation.

They did mention a large number of channels that the user can select, if there are problems with any interference.

They also said the wireless connection was coded and very resistant to interference.

 

Bluetooth has developed and evolved. 
Newer devices use more robust and capable versions of the protocol, which have longer range and can connect with multiple devices.

BLE and newer iterations have resolved a lot of the issues with earlier forms of Bluetooth.

 

ZigBee also uses the 2.4Ghz band.

A number of central heating and home automation systems use this wireless protocol (e.g. Hive, Tado etc,).

The Roco MultiMaus Pro DCC system, that preceded the Z/z21, used 2.4Ghz ZigBee communication between the MultiZentral Pro base station and MultiMaus Pro handsets.

 

.
 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[AndrueC]

13 hours ago, 298 said:

You'd have to have a pretty big home layout to trouble 2 amps, although it would help to divide it to decrease the initial current draw at start-up. The draw from sound decoders is one thing but I've found that it is a lot less for the new generation of sound chips than the old clunkers of 15 years ago.

I've been able to run three trains at the same time on my layout recently and the highest I've seen on my PowerCab is .45A. That's with three of the locos having their lights on as well albeit no sound. That's N scale with quite long trains (each almost a metre long) and a couple of curved inclines.

Edited November 26, 2023 by AndrueC

[guspaul]

Attended a presentation at the Bachmann stand and at the end I was ready to pay there and then.

 

FINALLY a user friendly DCC system.  (NCE power cabs are rubbish from a usability point of view, the JMRI phone app is poor).

 

The part of the demo that sealed it for me was seeing the abiltiy to swipe the throttle on the phone app to get to other throttles, then rotating the phone to landscape mode brings up the layout plan.

 

This system seems to combine the best of both physical controllers/PC based and app based.

 

Well done Bachmann!

 

 

[AndrueC]

I dunno. I'm still trying to see what any of these bring to the table beyond what my PowerCab does. With my layout I can see a need for a track diagram or a list of routes but I can come pretty close to the latter with the macros that the PowerCab provides.

 

Currently my PowerCab has two issues that (to a minor degree) impact me:

• Switching locos causes the state to reset. This can be avoided by using the Recall button but I haven't configured it yet.
• Remembering which turnouts need to be set for which routes. I just haven't programmed the macros yet.

Having a wireless controller would be nice but I currently have no real need.

Long term I'm already look at full computer control but I'm just struggling to see why these newer systems are being seen as so clever. They appear to a minor evolution over my PowerCab and considering how old that design is it's underwhelming.

 

What I want from my next controller is the ability to hand responsibility for locos and turnouts over to it. That way I can either tell it 'run timetable A' or just 'run random trains'. These controllers don't seem to offer either of those options so I'm feeling a lot of 'meh' at the moment.

Edited November 26, 2023 by AndrueC

[guspaul]

34 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

What I want from my next controller is the ability to hand responsibility for locos and turnouts over to it. That way I can either tell it 'run timetable A' or just 'run random trains'. These controllers don't seem to offer either of those options so I'm feeling a lot of 'meh' at the moment.

This system has a programming system (use natural English commands, not computer code) that allows you to do exactly that.  At least it would seem so.  It's based on time interval right now, but there was a hint that some form of locomotive detection is also coming.

[NBL]

1 hour ago, guspaul said:

Attended a presentation at the Bachmann stand and at the end I was ready to pay there and then.

 

FINALLY a user friendly DCC system.  (NCE power cabs are rubbish from a usability point of view, the JMRI phone app is poor).

 

The part of the demo that sealed it for me was seeing the abiltiy to swipe the throttle on the phone app to get to other throttles, then rotating the phone to landscape mode brings up the layout plan.

 

This system seems to combine the best of both physical controllers/PC based and app based.

 

Well done Bachmann!

 

 

I guess it's all down to personal choice, I find PowerCabs perfect for what I want which is loco control (I don't use sound and my modelling choices mean I don't have the need for multiple lighting control). 

 

My modelling group of friends all use PowerCabs too, even the sound fitted exhibition layout mentioned in an earlier post.  We find them solid and dependable.  We can also control trains and set points merely by feel and require only very quick glances at the handset to pull up a new loco or run a macro.

 

I did have a z21, which is a great product and very user friendly, but unless you buy the separate throttle, then you are staring at a screen all day, something which neither myself or my friends want to be doing, especially at an exhibition.  We stare at screens all day at work!  I quite quickly went back to NCE.

 

However where this new Bachmann product score highly is with the folk who require multiple function operations and are happy to use screens for operation.

 

I wish Bachmann the best with this product, and hope it is more successful than the dynamis (which I also tried!)

[guspaul]

22 hours ago, JimFin said:

This bit of their words concerns me - "2.4GHz wireless capability and built-in Wi-Fi and USB connectivity"

 

They are saying 2.4GHz wireless capability as a separate feature to built in WiFi. Apart from WiFi - the only wireless capability that operates in that spectrum is Bluetooth.

 

My interpretation then is that this is based round Bluetooth technology for the controller and would also facilitate other mobile devices with the appropriate app. 

 

My experience of Bluetooth is not great being subject to interference from many sources.

 

Can anyone who was there confirm if this was discussed in the presentation? 

At the presentation they discussed they had built their own encoding protocol that transmits over 2.4GHz.

 

It is not Bluetooth, the physical handset connects to the base station using this propietary protocol. (although the phone apps may connect to the bae station by Bluetooth, I wasn't clear on that).

 

They also showed that if you update the speed of a loco on one endpoint (either handset, app or PC) that is reflected on all the other devices almost instantly.

 

They pointed out that all consumer tech operates in the 2.4GHz band but you can use multiple  channels.  There was another demo going on at the Bachmann stand but no interference as they were on different channels.

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 minutes ago, guspaul said:

At the presentation they discussed they had built their own encoding protocol that transmits over 2.4GHz.

 

It is not Bluetooth, the physical handset connects to the base station using this propietary protocol. (although the phone apps may connect to the bae station by Bluetooth, I wasn't clear on that).

 

They also showed that if you update the speed of a loco on one endpoint (either handset, app or PC) that is reflected on all the other devices almost instantly.

 

They pointed out that all consumer tech operates in the 2.4GHz band but you can use multiple  channels.  There was another demo going on at the Bachmann stand but no interference as they were on different channels.

They had a WiFi router in the presentation area ( Kinesis Theatre).

It was positioned on top of the wall, above the presentation screens.

The tech chap giving the first presentation on Saturday morning, pointed it out when describing how the various elements of the system communicated with each other…….WiFi clearly involved.

 

 

.

 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, guspaul said:

 

 

They pointed out that all consumer tech operates in the 2.4GHz band but you can use multiple  channels.  There was another demo going on at the Bachmann stand but no interference as they were on different channels.

It's not clear to me whether they've re-invented WiFi in their own way or just using 802.11n/a/ac/ax as I would expect.

Edited November 27, 2023 by spamcan61

[SteveM666]

I may have already said this but I can’t see what ‘extra’ either of these new systems bring to the hobby. Both appear to be new iterations of existing handheld systems using Bluetooth instead of WiFi. That should make the connections twixt controller and base unit more stable.

However, signals are still conveyed to the decoders via the rails so they will still be subject to the usual constraints of dirty/uneven track. It’s good that it uses ‘standard’ decoders meaning that every existing loco is immediately accessible but you will still need to purchase the sound files on top of the decoders.

I can see no benefit to these that Hornby’s HM7K system doesn’t already deliver and for a much lower price.

After all, £400 is a lot of money just to get rid of a curly cable.