USATC S100 tank - early 1940s as-built livery query

[Nearholmer]

Looking back at those photos taken in Egypt, there is a subtle ‘spotting feature’ which needs a bit more decoding: no coal rails on the bunkers.
 

I think (subject to correction) that means that they are from early in the build programme, and had not been through WD hands in Britain before going elsewhere. The coal rails were addd to he design (along with a few other mods like wooden cab floors) at WD request, and WD retrofitted those that they got their hands on in Britain.

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Graham_Muz said:

I'm trying to do 4326 for Canute Road Quay, and have the Model Rail 1968 already stripped of her numbers,  but have yet to find suitable number decals for it, I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions? 

I regularly use Precision Labels (John Peck) for custom waterslide decals. The quality and service, and speed of delivery, is very good. I create my own artwork and these numbers should be fairly straightforward. 

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... no coal rails on the bunkers. ...

According to the Southern USA Tanks book "... thirty of the class sent to the Middle East ... All were oil burners at this stage." - in a caption referring to locos 1995 & 1996 with no coal rails - but no visible oil tank either !

[Mol_PMB]

2 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me as I'm in the process of planning a WW2 layout, which includes some USA tanks 👌

 

That first photo, of all the USATC locos in South Wales, is superb! I've been having an awful time finding good photos.

Some more South Wales photos here:

https://wrrc.org.uk/militaryrc.php

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

Marvellous, thank you

[Mol_PMB]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

1252 ( next to 1940 ) and 1259 are shown in variants* of that livery in https://www.crecy.co.uk/the-story-of-the-southern-usa-tanks - both at Newbury prior to export to Yugoslavia .... 4326 - which didn't go to Yugoslavia - appears twice. { If 30065 was painted thus in preservation, photos are not jumping out of the screen at me.)

 

*1259 has its number at the front of the cabside rather than the middle.

 

 

Looking more closely at the photo of 1940 and 1252, my impression is that the cab roof shape is quite different between the two locos.

Is that an optical illusion or were there physical differences between the locos? 1940 was a Davenport whilst 1252 was the very first S100 loco built by Porter.

[Mol_PMB]

13 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Marvellous, thank you

Also, from Mark Hambly on the Industrial Railway Society iogroup:

"Those interested in these locomotives and that period of history may be interested in an article in the latest (Vol. VII, No. 8, November 2023) issue of the Welsh Railway Archive, journal of the Welsh Railways Research Circle, in which John Bushby attempts to analyse their disposition during their time in the UK prior to transfer to continental Europe following D-Day, with particular reference to the storage site at Duffryn Isaf, near Llanbradach in the Rhymney Valley."

[Nearholmer]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

but no visible oil tank either !

Wouldn’t the oil tank just be in the erstwhile coal bunker?

[Mol_PMB]

I asked about 4326's history on the Industrial Railway Society, which has produced some interesting responses and further information.

 

It appears that there were two distinct groups of S100 locos which arrived in the UK:

• A total of 108 arrived in Britain from 1942 onwards and were used at a number of different military and industrial locations on loan from the USATC under Lend-Lease, assigned to the WD (95) and to the Ministry of Fuel & Power (13). These were recalled by the USATC from mid-1944 onwards prior to being shipped to continental Europe.
• A further 121 arrived from late 1943 onwards and were placed in store. Again these were shipped to continental Europe in the latter half of 1944.

Now Wikipedia lists a total of 382 of the class built, so presumably the remaining 153 locos were shipped elsewhere (perhaps direct to mainland Europe).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USATC_S100_Class

The locos were built in several number series as shown in the Wikipedia list but the quantities don't seem to tally directly with the groups listed above.

 

At least thirty-three locos were loaned to various docks in the UK, including the four in Manchester. Many of them were taken out of store (i.e. from the second group of 121 locos) - 4326 had been stored at Duffryn Isaf sidings on the Brecon & Merthyr.

Most were shipped to France between November 1944 and February 1945 but not all went and about 40 of the class still remained in the UK in May 1945, these included 4326 which never crossed the channel. The majority of these eventually found their way to the Newbury dump (including 4326, prior to being put on loan to the Southern Railway in April 1946).

 

So I think it's reasonable to assume that when 4326 worked in Manchester, it was in the same USATC livery that it carried at Newbury and when on loan to the SR in 1946.

After all that, I now know which version of the Minerva model to order!

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Wouldn’t the oil tank just be in the erstwhile coal bunker?

Presumably it is in this case - but other locos' tanks seem to be somewhat larger and rather conspicuous ..... like this monster used by the Southern - 

 

Southern Railways Group collection - source unknown.

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Presumably it is in this case - but other locos' tanks seem to be somewhat larger and rather conspicuous ..... like this monster used by the Southern - 

 

Southern Railways Group collection - source unknown.

 

That's for a King Arthur bogie tender though!

 

Same type as fitted to Merlin ISTR.

 

eBay link to Colour Photo

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

By my calculations it was probably designed as a universal size for Southern tender locos ............ but was only offered as an example of how conspicuous these things often were - as demonstrated by the photo.

[Forward!]

The USATC was formed on 31st July 1942. Prior to that it was the US Army Transport Service, and part of the Engineers. I wonder whether the change in organization structure is pertinent to the difference in lettering styles? Is it something as simple as the plain "USA" applied first and "USATC" applied to later deliveries? Considering the locos had to be built, taken to port of embarkation, and then endure the 17 day average of an Atlantic Convoy, the first delivery must have pre-dated the formation of the USATC.

 

Someone with insomnia might have the inclination to go through the photographs and see if there's any correlation between loco delivery date and lettering style.

 

Will

Edited December 1, 2023 by Forward!

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Forward! said:

The USATC was formed on 31st July 1942. Prior to that it was the US Army Transport Service, and part of the Engineers. I wonder whether the change in organization structure is pertinent to the difference in lettering styles? Is it something as simple as the plain "USA" applied first and "USATC" applied to later deliveries? Considering the locos had to be built, taken to port of embarkation, and then endure the 17 day average of an Atlantic Convoy, the first delivery must have pre-dated the formation of the USATC.

 

Someone with insomnia might have the inclination to go through the photographs and see if there's any correlation between loco delivery date and lettering style.

 

Will

 

That's a very useful observation - thanks!

Some of the highest-numbered locos carried the simple USA, here are two examples in France:

This one with the U and A removed, but the origins are clear:

These high-numbered locos might have gone straight to France rather than via the UK.

These ones fresh off the ship in Cardiff in December 1943 have the same paint scheme:

This one, also in as-shipped condition, is similar:

 

I'm now wondering if they were all delivered from the manufacturers with the simple USA, and that the more verbose USATC lettering was applied by USATC workshops in the UK?

 

[Mol_PMB]

I just found this one. Vulcan-built 1997 at the Ashington Coal Company in mid-1944, with plain USA on the tanks.

This loco had a similar early history to 4326, built by Vulcan in 1943 (they were less than 20 works numbers apart) and initially stored in South Wales before being loaned to industry.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

By my calculations it was probably designed as a universal size for Southern tender locos ............ but was only offered as an example of how conspicuous these things often were - as demonstrated by the photo.

 

But we are talking about USA Tanks. 

 

Just look at the K&WVR one as it was an oil burner in the 1970s and early 1980s. 

 

Notice the bunker has been altered since BR days. A bit squarer and much taller. 

 

https://daverowland.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/UK-Railway-Preservation/Keighley/i-F4ZS5HV/A

 

 

Jason

Edited December 1, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Wickham Green too]

Then if you look at page 59 of 'Collett & Hawksworth Locomotives' you'll see what was done when a tank loco didn't have a tall bunker already ..................... or smaller industrial locos which had even smaller bunkers - such as https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/e-borrows-sons-works-no-37-no3-0-4-0wt

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Then if you look at page 59 of 'Collett & Hawksworth Locomotives' you'll see what was done when a tank loco didn't have a tall bunker already ..................... or smaller industrial locos which had even smaller bunkers - such as https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/e-borrows-sons-works-no-37-no3-0-4-0wt

 

But this is a thread about USA tanks. Many of them were oil burners!

 

72 probably got a bigger bunker as it needed extra fuel capacity as it was a working locomotive on a heritage railway.

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

What they did to that Borrows Tank was simply unkind.

 

I’ve been trying to remember how it was done on the Alco at the Festiniog, and from I can dredge up from the little grey cells, I think the oil bunker was within the profile of the coal bunker ……. I cleaned the smoke box and tubes a few times, which is a truly disgusting job on an oil-fired loco, but I don’t remember “filling her up”.

[Mol_PMB]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

What they did to that Borrows Tank was simply unkind.

 

I’ve been trying to remember how it was done on the Alco at the Festiniog, and from I can dredge up from the little grey cells, I think the oil bunker was within the profile of the coal bunker ……. I cleaned the smoke box and tubes a few times, which is a truly disgusting job on an oil-fired loco, but I don’t remember “filling her up”.

Yes, there was/is a separate oil tank profiled to fit within the Alco's bunker. A similar approach was used on Taliesin (single fairlie) when that was an oil-burner.

[Wickham Green too]

................ meanwhile, back at liveries ......

[Tony Cane]

21 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

I'm trying to do 4326 for Canute Road Quay, and have the Model Rail 1968 already stripped of her numbers,  but have yet to find suitable number decals for it, I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions? 

Hi Muz

 

The nearest match to the flat top numbers used on some USATC locomotives that I have found is, not surprisingly, from another U S military organisation. The USAF use some similar style numbers, see

 

https://www.dafont.com/amarillo-usaf.font

 

There are others, and of course sheets of what the Americans call decals are available. The issue will be to find one with the numbers in white and of a suitable size.

It may be worth contacting a relevant modelling Group for potential sources. You may be lucky and get the eight numbers you need for the cost of stamp.

 

Regards

 

Tony Cane

[Wickham Green too]

41 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

... flat top numbers used on some USATC locomotives ...

There's a photo of 4324 with those big numerals in the 'Southern USA Tanks' book - BUT that's not what 4326 carried when in Southern ownership ..... as shown on page 1 of this thread, the numbers were a lot smaller and of pretty 'conventional' shape ..... well, to my non-graphic-artist eye anyway !

[Mol_PMB]

On 01/12/2023 at 16:56, Wickham Green too said:

There's a photo of 4324 with those big numerals in the 'Southern USA Tanks' book - BUT that's not what 4326 carried when in Southern ownership ..... as shown on page 1 of this thread, the numbers were a lot smaller and of pretty 'conventional' shape ..... well, to my non-graphic-artist eye anyway !

 

I've been having a play with transfer artwork for 4326 in Southern ownership, and what it might have looked like when new if 1997 is a good guide.

See the attached pdf sketches (these are 7mm scale which is what I work in, but easily rescaled).

For the full USATC lettering, I've used the font "Square721 BT" but I've manually edited the P, R, M, 4 and 2 to make them match the prototype better.

How does this look?

 

Paul

 

Transfer_locos_02-12-2023.pdf

[Wickham Green too]

I'd say both are a little large - judging by distance to tank edges