USATC S100 tank - early 1940s as-built livery query

[Mol_PMB]

This query relates to the 0-6-0 tank locos built in 1942-44 for the USATC in WWII, primarily for use in France (post-war some were bought by the Southern Railway but that is beyond my timescale of interest.

 

They were delivered to the UK in 1943-44 and 'stored' until they were sent to France, but in practice some of them were used in the UK during that time including a few on the Manchester Ship Canal Railway. Now that Minerva have announced an O gauge model, I'm tempted...

 

I've been trying to work out the original livery that would have been carried by these locos when shipped across the Atlantic. It may be more complicated than a single answer because they were built by three different factories over the course of two years, and may not all have been painted in the same way. So far, I have found the following photos which show locos in wartime or shortly afterwards:

 

4372 (built by Davenport in 1943) in South Wales in 1944, lettered TRANSPORTATION CORPS / US ARMY:

 

Also in South Wales around the same time, several locos apparently just lettered USA in fairly square letters:

6096 (built by in Porter in 1944) in France with similar lettering:

 

1938 (built by Davenport in 1943) lettered U.S.A. in a font that looks rounder than the locos above:

 

1940 (built by Davenport in 1943) in W^D livery apparently at a UK (GWR?) loco shed:

1405 (built by Porter in 1943) in a more elaborate shaded W^D livery in France:

1260 and 1266 (both built by Porter in 1942) in a different variant of WD livery apparently in mainland Europe:

 

 

Can anyone provide more information on which of these liveries represent the as-delivered condition?

I haven't yet found any photos of Vulcan-built locos in wartime liveries, those or any more early photos would be very interesting to see.

 

Attached is a pdf showing the model liveries currently advertised. 4383 was from the same batch as 4372 (first pic above) and carries the same livery. None of the other liveries above are offered, but all could be produced on the basis of the unlettered model.

 

Finally, has anyone ever seen a photo of one of these in use in Manchester Docks or Ellesmere Port?

 

Many thanks,

Paul

 

030 TU.pdf

[Mol_PMB]

I've found a couple more.

 

Another WD lettered loco, interestingly at the USATC Lockerley (Hampshire) depot in 1944. 1961 was built by Vulcan in 1943.

 

 

This link shows 1933 (Davenport 1943) in Yugoslavia in TRANSPORTATION CORPS / US ARMY livery as per 4372 in the first post.

https://www.angelfire.com/co3/drustvo/steam/s621933.JPG

 

There are also some nice photos of more S100 locos on this website, mostly just postwar:

https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/WAR-DEPARTMENT-LOCOMOTIVES/DEPARTMENT-LOCOMOTIVES/i-R7fcpxh

They include:

1264 (Porter 1942) painted similar to 1940 in the first post.

1277 (Vulcan 1942) painted similar to 1405 in the first post.

1418 (Porter 1943) in US Army Transportation Corps livery but with the lettering and number arranged completely differently.

Another photo of 1940 alongside another class member.

Another photo of 4372, painted similar to to the first post, with the addition of a circular logo.

1968 (Vulcan 1943) painted similar to 4372 in the first post, with the addition of a circular logo.

1974 (Vulcan 1943) in US Army Transportation Corps livery but with the lettering and number arranged completely differently.

6006 (Davenport 1944) painted similar to 1940 in the first post.

6103 (Porter 1944) painted similar to 6096 in the first post, but with the U and A removed.

 

A lineup showing 1938, 1425, 1259, 1412, 1428, 1387, 1408, 1266, 1390, 1411, in various WD and USATC lettering styles.

 

So some more evidence of the same liveries, but a wider variety as well. 

I wonder which were original schemes and which were repaints?

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Mol_PMB
correcting typo

[RichardT]

Lots of useful info upthread. Given that I assume you’re looking at modelling a “what-if” situation, why not just pick the lettering you find most agreeable? You’ve got plenty of photographic evidence to confound anyone who tries to nit-pick!  And anyone who attempts to pronounce with certainty about what happened to an individual loco at the height of the Second World War is on a hiding to nothing.

 

RichardT

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Richard!
It's not quite a "what-if", though it's stretching my time-period a little. At least 4 USA tanks worked on the MSC Railway in 1943/44, based at Mode Wheel shed and crewed by US Army crews. For a while 2 were out-stationed at Ellesmere Port but it's not clear whether these were 2 of the 4, or if there were a total of 6.

Only one of their numbers is known: 4326, a Vulcan-built loco which was still in Manchester in November 1944. It was the first one bought by the SR in May 1946, later their number 74. I don't know if it went to France in between.

 

So either I'd like to find out how 4326 was originally painted, or I suppose I could choose whichever loco number and livery combination I wanted based on the known photos.

The impression I get from the above photos is that some locos were delivered in W^D livery and others in USATC livery, which seems surprising.

 

Thanks,
Paul

 

 

[bécasse]

One thing that strikes me is that, with the exception of the "TRANSPORTATION CORPS / U S ARMY" legend, all the lettering has the look of being hand painted. Given that the locos were produced by three manufacturers over a period of time - and in wartime - it perhaps isn't surprising that there would have been considerable variations in hand-painted finishes, and the US Army's own specifications may well have varied over time too (which might just explain the use of "WD" on some locos - or perhaps these were the subject of the lease-lend arrangements).

[Nearholmer]

Some locos were leant to WD, as well as to vital production facilities. I’ve got the definitive book by Tourret, and will look later to see if it mentions the original painting spec. I dimly recall that it mentions some being painted green by WD when they had them, and it certainly mentions renumbering to WD fleet numbers.

 

That Lockerley photo I’ve seen before, and it is indicative of the conditions of the time: study the buffers and couplings.

 

Tegarding the MSC: try the IRS email group; if members there don’t know, nobody does!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Steamport Southport]

One of the photos above of 1938 says Springhead.

 

Could that be Springhead in Hull?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springhead_engine_shed

 

 

 

Jason

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Nearholmer said:

Some locos were leant to WD, as well as to vital production facilities. I’ve got the definitive book by Tourret, and will look later to see if it mentions the original painting spec. I dimly recall that it mentions some being painted green by WD when they had them.

 

That Lockerley photo I’ve seen before, and it is indicative of the conditions of the time: study the buffers and couplings.

Many thanks - that would be very helpful if you could check that book.

 

Two of the photos in my first post show locos with timber boarding over the cab, which I assume is the form in which they crossed the Atlantic and therefore the two (slightly different) 'USA' schemes represent examples of how some locos were originally painted. But others may have been delivered with the more verbose USATC spelled out. 

 

It's interesting to hear that some were loaned to the WD and presumably it was some of those locos that received WD lettering - probably hand-repainted as bécasse suggests - to distinguish them from USATC-operated locos. Since one thing that is known about the locos that worked on the MSC is that they came complete with US Army crews, I'm fairly sure that I would need USA or USATC lettering rather than WD.

 

2 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

One of the photos above of 1938 says Springhead.

 

Could that be Springhead in Hull?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springhead_engine_shed

 

 

 

Jason

It could well be. Major UK ports would be an obvious place for these to appear, either on delivery or working in the interim before being sent to France. We know it happened in Manchester, quite possibly Hull as well. 

[Wickham Green too]

47 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

... some were loaned to the WD and presumably it was some of those locos that received WD lettering ...

But then three WD 2-8-0s on loan to British Railways received appropriate lettering on the tenders - and this had to be painted out 'cos they were ONLY on loan and not BR property ! ....................... maybe the War Department wanted it both ways !!?!

[Nearholmer]

Sooner than I expected.

I don’t want to breach too much copyright, but these seem to be the key snippets from your viewpoint:

 

 

Looking at photos, the style of lettering and numbering seems quite variable, which is no surprise considering that three builders, two WD workshops, and who knows what in regards returning to USATC numbers, were involved.

 

Another point of potential confusion is that a goodly proportion of the first batch were actually ordered by the WD, not USATC, in the first place, but still arrived with USATC identities, got relabelled WD, then given back to USATC!

 

Tourret doesn’t seem to mention paint colour, but the dark blue-grey is widely cited elsewhere as the initial scheme. I can’t find the reference to some being painted green while with WD in Tourret, so I must have picked that up elsewhere. If you can find photos of the postwar Newbury line-up, some of the locos in that lol pretty neat, so had probably been overhauled, and I would guess repainted, by WD while they had them.

 

[Mol_PMB]

Super, many thanks for looking out that information.

So the locos which worked on the MSC probably would not have been lettered WD.

 

Here's a nice photo I've just found on Flickr showing 1948 (Davenport 1943) in France, a nice portrait of the crew at work too:

A couple in Egypt post-war:

 

This might be my holy grail, here's a photo of 4326 itself at work for the Southern Railway but still in its USATC livery:

I could guess that it looked like this while working in Manchester?

 

Thanks for all the info, I think I might have to buy one of these!

Paul

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks - that would be very helpful if you could check that book.

 

Two of the photos in my first post show locos with timber boarding over the cab, which I assume is the form in which they crossed the Atlantic and therefore the two (slightly different) 'USA' schemes represent examples of how some locos were originally painted. But others may have been delivered with the more verbose USATC spelled out. 

 

It's interesting to hear that some were loaned to the WD and presumably it was some of those locos that received WD lettering - probably hand-repainted as bécasse suggests - to distinguish them from USATC-operated locos. Since one thing that is known about the locos that worked on the MSC is that they came complete with US Army crews, I'm fairly sure that I would need USA or USATC lettering rather than WD.

 

It could well be. Major UK ports would be an obvious place for these to appear, either on delivery or working in the interim before being sent to France. We know it happened in Manchester, quite possibly Hull as well. 

 

It might be worth trawling through the Bachmann thread as I'm sure all this was discussed then.

 

I know they worked Liverpool, Birkenhead, Preston, Port Sunlight, etc.

 

Photographic evidence will be rare for obvious reasons.

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

33 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

in Egypt post-war

I’m not sure my father would have called it “post war”. He was in Palestine, then Egypt from c1945-52, and got shot at and in one case blown-up (loosing a knee-cap in the process) by various parties.

 

4326 has an unusual livery, with the USATC logo. I’ve seen pictures of locos in the US, shunter at “base depots” like that, but didn’t realise it was applied to any here.

 

[Wickham Green too]

37 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... 4326 has an unusual livery, with the USATC logo. ...

Maybe not that unusual - Model Rail/Bachmann opted to portray that variant numbered 1968.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Wickham Green too
number

[Nearholmer]

Yes, and I think that was based on a preserved example painted like that; it’s ‘service’ examples in the UK where I think it’s unusual. The trouble with some preservation schemes is that they aren’t historically spot-on, and it’s hard to know which are, and which aren’t.

[Mol_PMB]

 

A few more with the USATC logo here, I think all in store after returning from France?

 

All linked from the excellent smugmug site I mentioned earlier.

[Nearholmer]

Maybe we need to get dates nailed - these might be ex-WD locos that have been made ready to go onward with USATC post-1945. Certainly proves that 1968 as made by Bachman is correct for whenever this is.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green too]

1252 ( next to 1940 ) and 1259 are shown in variants* of that livery in https://www.crecy.co.uk/the-story-of-the-southern-usa-tanks - both at Newbury prior to export to Yugoslavia .... 4326 - which didn't go to Yugoslavia - appears twice. { If 30065 was painted thus in preservation, photos are not jumping out of the screen at me.)

 

*1259 has its number at the front of the cabside rather than the middle.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, all the ones in those photos were at Newbury, so I guess that’s where they were taken, and if I read Tourret correctly they were locos that had never been to France, but had remained in Britain.

[Mallard60022]

Quick thanks for all that have contributed to this. I had no idea about the history of these little Engines (or their large Sisters). Fascinating.

I obviously knew something about the Southampton Engines.

Phil

[Fair Oak Junction]

This thread couldn't have come at a better time for me as I'm in the process of planning a WW2 layout, which includes some USA tanks 👌

 

That first photo, of all the USATC locos in South Wales, is superb! I've been having an awful time finding good photos.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, and I think that was based on a preserved example painted like that; it’s ‘service’ examples in the UK where I think it’s unusual. The trouble with some preservation schemes is that they aren’t historically spot-on, and it’s hard to know which are, and which aren’t.

 

The only preserved one Bachmann did was the K&WVR version which dates it to very early preservation (late 1960s). All the others are genuine liveries.

 

There were calls for the other preserved engines, but they have all been altered since preservation.

 

The K&WVR USA Tank did get USATC livery for the film Yanks, but I can't find a photo. However ISTR it was an oil burner at that point.

 

 

Jason

Edited November 30, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[Graham_Muz]

I'm trying to do 4326 for Canute Road Quay, and have the Model Rail 1968 already stripped of her numbers,  but have yet to find suitable number decals for it, I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions? 

[Fair Oak Junction]

7 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

I'm trying to do 4326 for Canute Road Quay, and have the Model Rail 1968 already stripped of her numbers,  but have yet to find suitable number decals for it, I don't suppose anyone has any suggestions? 

 

I have found myself in a similar predicament. WD transfers can be found, but not USATC ones.

I found this thread where someone had designed their own, and at some point I'm going to look at getting some custom transfers done based on these.

https://www.themodelrailwayclub.org/figuring-out-the-usatcs-painted-numbers/

[Wickham Green too]

Can't think what I used for mine, sorry  -  probably wagon transfers but what variant ?