How was lead ore transported?

[welshway]

Does anyone know how lead ore was transported on the railways and what sort of wagons they were transported in?
 

I've been looking into this but I'm struggling to find examples and prototypes. 

 

this is the only example I've been able to find, but the thread I found it on were unsure if it for carrying lead ore or something else.

 

any information and images would be much obliged.

[Grovenor]

The lead ore we dug out at Broken Hill (Kabwe) was smelted on site and only shipped as lead ingots. Just a thin layer on the wagon floor was a full load, easy to mistake for an empty.

[Nearholmer]

To me, that wagon looks very much as if it carried something very dense, and while lead ore is dense, to me it looks more likely that it took ingots. That would explain the big padlocks (the loading hatch on the roof is padlocked too), it being a valuable cargo, easily (by strong blokes!) stolen en-route. It’s effectively a strongbox on wheels.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Nearholmer

[pete_mcfarlane]

Smelting on site is most likely - disused lead mines often come with the remains of a smelter (with the long flue to a remote chimney to get rid of the toxic fumes). 

[Wickham Green too]

I wouldn't fancy having to load or unload that wagon - whatever it carried.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Smelting on site is most likely - disused lead mines often come with the remains of a smelter (with the long flue to a remote chimney to get rid of the toxic fumes). 

Plenty of those in Northumberland around Hexham

e.g. Stublick Chimney, the flue can still be traced going down the hillside

 

They knew lead was hazardous even back then. Plenty of workers still died though.

The smelter was by the pond, the Hexham & Allendale branch line also ran through the area built mainly for the lead mining & smelting industry.

Edited December 11, 2023 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

I don’t think lead ore was transported as such, at least no more than from the mine to the smelter in tubs/drams, which would be on site.  Smelted ingots, yes, but not ore. 

[DavidB-AU]

Unprocessed lead ore was carried by rail to Aberystwyth harbour for processing in Swansea or Deeside. There were some private standard gauge lines, for example the Van Railway ran from Llanidloes to the Cambrian at Caersws.

 

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much freely available information about the Blaen Ceulan mine (which was here). J.B. Balcombe did own the Llywernog mine near Devil's Bridge. Now I'm wondering if he had these built in anticipation of the Manchester and Milford Railway line to Aberystwyth via Devil's Bridge which never went ahead.

Edited December 12, 2023 by DavidB-AU

[drduncan]

Any more information about the wagon in the opening post such as builder or wheelbase? Also where did you find the photo?

 

Regards

 

Duncan

[MarcD]

Most of the lead mines in Yorkshire and the lakes had a smelter close by. Lead ingots were quite often photographed being loaded in places like Middleton in teesdale and other stations in the area. It comes down to the principle of what is the heaviest thing to move ore or coal. It's why barrow developed a a steel town coke is easier to ship in rather than iron ore out. 

Marc

[Jeremy Cumberland]

@Skinnylinny built a model of this wagon and describes it in this thread:

 

I wonder if the drawings contain any more information.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

Any more information about the wagon in the opening post such as builder or wheelbase? Also where did you find the photo?

 

Regards

 

Duncan

The axle boxes are marked G.W. Co. and the body size is on the maker's info plate placed for the photo.

The solebar also has a maker's plate with the No. 54, it's distinctive style should be recognisable to someone.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

33 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The axle boxes are marked G.W. Co. and the body size is on the maker's info plate placed for the photo.

The solebar also has a maker's plate with the No. 54, it's distinctive style should be recognisable to someone.

Gloster (Gloucester) Wagon Company.

 

https://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/grcw.html

[melmerby]

The lead mine was about 4miles east of Talybont and Open Railway Map shows a mineral line ran there.

The 6" OS map shows a "Cambrian Lead Mine" in that area

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Gloster (Gloucester) Wagon Company.

 

I assumed that, I was pointing out the clues in the picture which for some reason people don't seem to be able to see.☺️

 

I wonder whether the wagon was on hire, bearing the maker's plate with a different number to that in the users fleet?

Edited December 12, 2023 by melmerby

[melmerby]

To me there seems something odd about the signwriting.

The signwriting for it's tare & load looks as if it's full face although the wagon is at an angle.

Maybe that's just how it looks?

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The lead mine was about 4miles east of Talybont and Open Railway Map shows a mineral line ran there.

The 6" OS map shows a "Cambrian Lead Mine" in that area

 

The narrow gauge Plynlimon and Hafan Tramway / Hafan and Talybont Railway - not long in existence but carried passengers for one summer season!

 

When closed, one loco and some wagons were used by the contractor building the Vale of Rheidol Railway, and the loco was absorbed into that railway's stock.

 

There are still extensive visible remains of the railway and the mine / processing infrastructure, easily accessible.

 

A dedicated history of the railway has been published in the not to distant past.

 

https://www.bottbooks.com/product/41405/THE-PLYNLIMON-HAFAN-TRAMWAY

 

CJI.

Edited December 12, 2023 by cctransuk

[bécasse]

Silver was often mined alongside lead and I believe that was the case for the mine whose wagon is depicted - silver, rather then lead, may be the reason for the padlocks.

[Reorte]

26 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Silver was often mined alongside lead and I believe that was the case for the mine whose wagon is depicted - silver, rather then lead, may be the reason for the padlocks.

If it's the ore then the silver will still be mixed in with it, nicking eight tons of ore for the silver content, which you'd have to refine out yourself, seems like quite a big job. The lead in total would've been more valuable, silver was a nice by-product for mines with enough silver in the lead. I've a vague idea that about 12 ounces of silver per ton was about the minimum silver content that was economic to separate (but I've not got a great memory for numbers). Never knew whether that was tons of raw ore or concentrate from the mill, the latter sounds more plausible though.

[melmerby]

33 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Silver was often mined alongside lead and I believe that was the case for the mine whose wagon is depicted - silver, rather then lead, may be the reason for the padlocks.

Copper ore was also a common mineral in the mix.

[drduncan]

5 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

@Skinnylinny built a model of this wagon and describes it in this thread:

 

I wonder if the drawings contain any more information.

Thank you. Most helpful.

Duncan

[drduncan]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

The lead mine was about 4miles east of Talybont and Open Railway Map shows a mineral line ran there.

The 6" OS map shows a "Cambrian Lead Mine" in that area

 

I assumed that, I was pointing out the clues in the picture which for some reason people don't seem to be able to see.☺️

 

I wonder whether the wagon was on hire, bearing the maker's plate with a different number to that in the users fleet?

As you point out the body length is clear, but my question was whether anyone knew what the wheelbase was - which doesn’t appear on the panel with the other information. Happily skinnylinny’s thread may have the answer.

D

Edited December 12, 2023 by drduncan

[melmerby]

14 minutes ago, drduncan said:

As you point out the body length is clear, but my question was whether anyone knew what the wheelbase was - which doesn’t appear on the panel with the other information. Happily skinnylinny’s thread may have the answer.

D

The panel also seems to include the depth and another measurement (in inches), possibly where wheelbase would've normally have been.

 

Something I learned from this close up are the "split spoke" wheels which are actually made up from wedge shaped segments.

(Others may have already known that)

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

...it looks more likely that it took ingots...

It would have been a pig to load with ore, and still more so to offload!

 

Ingots would be slightly easier, but assuming that the load was distributed evenly over the floor area, with much laborious shoving into position, it would be roughly 4"/100mm deep in solid lead if the specified load was carried; with yet more effort to drag them all out of the strongbox wagon. I confess my ignorance of C19th lead ingot dimensions... It's all very interesting.

[Fair Oak Junction]

The Snailbeach railway carried lead ore rather than smelting it at source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snailbeach_District_Railways

[Nearholmer]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

. I confess my ignorance of C19th lead ingot dimensions.

I wasted half an hour yesterday evening trying to find out, and came away none the wiser. Historically, lead ingots seem to have weighed about as much as one string bloke could lift and carry, but the shapes were very varied, not all the classic “gold bar” ingot shape at all.

 

Id certainly hate to unload that wagon, my back aches just thinking about it. Loading probably involved some well-practised flinging.