Eurostar tunnel floods

[KeithMacdonald]

Quote

 

Eurostar trains cancelled after tunnel floods ~ HS1, which operates the track, said engineers had worked through the night to remove water but the volume of water was "unprecedented". Pumps and tankers are on the site and water levels are reducing, a spokeswoman added.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67846863

 

The tone of the headline might be deceptive.

[Tom Burnham]

Well yes, it's the HS1 tunnels under the Thames rather than the Channel tunnel. Reports so far are vague about where the water came from.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I know how to fix the leak....

https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/robinson/a-leak-in-the-channel-tunnel-illustration-from-inventions-litho/lithograph/asset/94802

[ess1uk]

8 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Well yes, it's the HS1 tunnels under the Thames rather than the Channel tunnel. Reports so far are vague about where the water came from.

Video on the BBC shows water coming out of a pipe 

 

[locoholic]

How long before travel insurers refuse to cover Eurostar journeys? The service is now becoming synonymous with unreliability.

 

With a problem in the tunnel under the Thames, Eurostar services should be able to start from Ebbsfleet or Ashford instead, with travellers using the alternative rail routes to/from London.

 

No resilience in the current set up at all.

 

 

[fulton]

33 minutes ago, locoholic said:

 

 

No resilience in the current set up at all.

 

 

Also a common complaint is lack of information, even an annoncement that there was no new information would do. My wife once got strandard in Brussels, four hours no information, as She had passed security, could not access the station facilities, fortunatly She had food but others did not, at 11pm they were told all Eurostar could offer was their money back! and She would have to make a new booking the next day, terrible customer service, sorry for the rant.

[40F]

46 minutes ago, locoholic said:

How long before travel insurers refuse to cover Eurostar journeys? The service is now becoming synonymous with unreliability.

 

With a problem in the tunnel under the Thames, Eurostar services should be able to start from Ebbsfleet or Ashford instead, with travellers using the alternative rail routes to/from London.

 

No resilience in the current set up at all.

 

 

 

How would they get the stock to Ebbsfleet/Ashford? You would have to rely on incoming trains and the service would be halved at best

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, 40F said:

 

How would they get the stock to Ebbsfleet/Ashford? You would have to rely on incoming trains and the service would be halved at best

Some of the fleet will be in France, a lot of it at Temple Mills with two or three at St Pancras.

 

As long as they can get trains to Stratford they would be ok.

 

The problem will be getting passengers through customs, it’s all mothballed at best away from St Pancras.

 

You cannot ignore customs and immigration rules otherwise all you’d need to do to get in is have someone sabotage something near St Pancras to make it a free for all which would be a terrorist risk

[Michael Hodgson]

Couldn't we run ferries across the Thames?

[Wickham Green too]

26 minutes ago, 40F said:

How would they get the stock to Ebbsfleet ... 

How would they get the passengers to Ebbsfleet ? 

[Pete the Elaner]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Couldn't we run ferries across the Thames?

 

Where would you get ferries from? There will only be enough to meet the demand of the current services. Any more would be a waste because they are too expensive to have sitting at a dock doing nothing. 

[Michael Hodgson]

8 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Where would you get ferries from? There will only be enough to meet the demand of the current services. Any more would be a waste because they are too expensive to have sitting at a dock doing nothing. 

Charter them from this outfit - and get them to put "Rail replacement service" on the front

[Bucoops]

Or, what about ferries across the channel?

[woodenhead]

44 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Or, what about ferries across the channel?

Plenty of small boats going empty to France and by the time you want to come back there will be a train again 😄

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Plenty of small boats going empty to France and by the time you want to come back there will be a train again 😄

That's what we need - I think it's called 'Dunkirk spirit' !

[nightstar.train]

Even is Ashford and Ebbsfleet were open and staffed by Border Force and French customs (which they’re not), they were never designed to handle an entire train. They simply don’t have the facilities for a whole train load of passengers. 
 

Also to have them able to act as a diversionary station at very little notice you’d basically have to have them open and staffed even when trains aren’t calling. You can’t simply snap your fingers and open a station that’s been mothballed, it takes work to get everything up and running and to get the station clean, heated etc for passengers. 

[The Johnster]

It's a pipe that's burst in the Thames  Tunnel section of HS1.  I don't see any connection with weather conditions, it hasn't been freezing, and the Thames Tunnel has not been flooded by ingress from the river or from surface or drainage water on either side.  It is a little worrying that a relatively normal burst pipe (not particularly large or under any pressure from the photos) is able to disable the route so easily; should not standby pumps be included in the tunnel's infrastructure?

 

I'm told that the Severn Tunnel would flood to roof level at the bottom in six minutes if the the pumps failed, and completely including the cuttings either side up to river level in about an hour depending on the state of the tide, which is why there is reserver overcapacity provided in the pumping station.  Just sayin'.

[spamcan61]

16 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

I'm told that the Severn Tunnel would flood to roof level at the bottom in six minutes if the the pumps failed, and completely including the cuttings either side up to river level in about an hour depending on the state of the tide, which is why there is reserver overcapacity provided in the pumping station.  Just sayin'.

Indeed; there was an article on this in a recent Cornwall Railway Society magazine, something like  10 million gallons of water pumped daily.

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

... It is a little worrying that a relatively normal burst pipe (not particularly large or under any pressure from the photos) is able to disable the route so easily; should not standby pumps be included in the tunnel's infrastructure? ...

All tunnels leak to some extent and anything like this which can't self-drain must have pump-s to handle normal seepage PLUS.

I guess this is a fire main and I'm surprised that a) loss of pressure doesn't seem to have triggered the fire suppression system into overdrive and b) that - once the breakage was identified - the appropriate section of main doesn't seem to have been isolated tout de suite.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

I'm told that the Severn Tunnel would flood to roof level at the bottom in six minutes if the the pumps failed, and completely including the cuttings either side up to river level in about an hour depending on the state of the tide, which is why there is reserver overcapacity provided in the pumping station.  Just sayin'.

I assume that was one of the first sections to get axle counters instead of track circuits?

[locoholic]

7 hours ago, 40F said:

 

How would they get the stock to Ebbsfleet/Ashford? You would have to rely on incoming trains and the service would be halved at best

Half service is better than no service at all!

[locoholic]

On 30/12/2023 at 20:34, nightstar.train said:

Even is Ashford and Ebbsfleet were open and staffed by Border Force and French customs (which they’re not), they were never designed to handle an entire train. They simply don’t have the facilities for a whole train load of passengers. 
 

Also to have them able to act as a diversionary station at very little notice you’d basically have to have them open and staffed even when trains aren’t calling. You can’t simply snap your fingers and open a station that’s been mothballed, it takes work to get everything up and running and to get the station clean, heated etc for passengers. 

I think people would be willing to queue, rather than just be told to give up and go away, which is Eurostar's current contingency plan.

 

And even a delay of a few hours while staff got things opened up would be better than nothing.

Edited January 2 by locoholic

[MartinRS]

3 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Or, what about ferries across the channel?

I'm not sure Edward Watkin would aprove that idea!

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

I'm told that the Severn Tunnel would flood to roof level at the bottom in six minutes if the the pumps failed, and completely including the cuttings either side up to river level in about an hour depending on the state of the tide, which is why there is reserver overcapacity provided in the pumping station.  Just sayin'.

But that is a 100% known outcome and is factored in.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Indeed; there was an article on this in a recent Cornwall Railway Society magazine, something like  10 million gallons of water pumped daily.

 

The surplus water comes mostly from the 'Great Spring', which is fresh groundwater and not brackish river water, which when you've seen the amount of leakage that does come from the river (went through in the cab of a Central Wales powertwin 120 set with headlights once) is pretty startling!  It used at one time to be pumped to Llanwern Steelworks to be used for quenching, but is nowadays pumped into the river.