Fitting LaisDCC "stay alive" to Zimo and Train o Matic decoders

[ColinB]

I wonder if anyone has experience of fitting LaisDCC stay alives to different makes of decoders. I have a fair number of Hornby 0-6-0 locos plus a few Bachmanns. I have been using mainly LaisDCC "stay alives" as they are quite small, come in various shapes and work really well. The issue I am having is if I connect one of these to a Zimo MN170 decoder I get about 20 seconds run time once I remove it from the track, now if I fit it to a Train O Matic decoder I get a maximum of 2 or 3 seconds. Now has anyone else had experience of this and the bigger question is do Train O Matic "stay alives" work better with Train O Matic decoders. I am a retired Electronics Engineer so I understand how they work but I just find it weird that I get a much longer run time on the "stay alive" when fitted to a Zimo decoder. The simple solution is to just buy Zimo decoders but I would just like the couple of Train O Matic ones I have to work better.

[WIMorrison]

How long have you set the CV on the train-o-matic to run the decoder for when power is lost (assuming that they have one)?

[Nigelcliffe]

Have you swapped the combination between locos for the figures you quote ?   Or are they different locos ?  

 

Different locos will have a massive impact on the run-times, a high-efficiency motor will give 20 seconds running, a low-efficiency might be exhausted in under 2 seconds.   

 

There are CV's inside Train-o-matic for stay-alive run-on.    I don't know how they impact the 2-wire stay-alives (the decoders are, like ESU, designed for three-wire setups), but its possible they are relevant.  Default run time is quite short, because they've decided locos which run over the scenery are probably going to cause damage to themselves and the layout.    

[ColinB]

Yes, I have tried  both combinations in the same loco that is why I was so surprised. I didn't know that they had a CV for run on, that sounds like a pretty good reason. I can't remember Zimo having one so that could explain the difference. 

[WIMorrison]

Look at CV153 in Zimo manual 😉

[ColinB]

I read the manual it appears maximum run on time is 4 seconds, so that explains it.

[WIMorrison]

9 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I read the manual …

Always a good idea when things don’t work as expected - and not just for mode railways 😉

[ColinB]

I can see why it is there but Hornby, Accurascale and Zimo it relies on how much charge is stored in the capacitors. Good to know these things. So it looks like I will stick to Zimo decoders.

[WIMorrison]

As I said, look at CV153 in Zimo

 

 

always the gold standard for decoder functionality 

[ColinB]

Yes, thanks for the information maximum 25 seconds for Zimo, 4 seconds for Train O Matic using the relevant CV.

[WIMorrison]

Why on earth would you want a loco to run uncontrolled for 25 secs? Even the 4 secs maximum of Train-o-matic is excessive and could in a huge amount of damage.

[Nigelcliffe]

30 minutes ago, ColinB said:

I can see why it is there but Hornby, Accurascale and Zimo it relies on how much charge is stored in the capacitors. Good to know these things. So it looks like I will stick to Zimo decoders.

 

I can't see why anyone needs beyond 1 second of stay-alive running time(*).    So, if the Train-o-matic is giving the performance required in all other respects, why change it ?  

 

There is a reason for much larger storage capacity,  and that's a Zimo feature whereby the decoder can detect if it comes to a standstill on a dead-spot.   Then, the decoder will attempt to nudge the loco along until contact is restored.   To do that requires lots of energy as motors need a lot to start them moving.      I think that's a "Zimo unique" feature, and independent of the "run time" value going out to 25 seconds (if the energy store holds out that long).   

 

 

(* I've done a few comedy demo setups.  Recently, a Bachmann J72 which would run about 20 inches along the sleepers (no rails) of a layout under-construction with a wagon containing rail and chairs behind it.   Hugely entertaining, and turned down in decoder settings to sensible immediately after the fun. 

I'll routinely test stay-alive installations by running a loco onto a piece of paper to see how far it goes.    But then set the run-time to sensible.  ) 

 

- Nigel

[ColinB]

Well we all have our preferences, so what sort of damage do you envisage? There is a dead spot on my railway that 0-6-0 struggle with, I also have issues with double slips, 1 second is not long enough. in some cases at very low speed 4 is not enough either. Either way it is my choice as to what I set it to.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, ColinB said:

Well we all have our preferences, so what sort of damage do you envisage? There is a dead spot on my railway that 0-6-0 struggle with, I also have issues with double slips, 1 second is not long enough. in some cases at very low speed 4 is not enough either. Either way it is my choice as to what I set it to.

 

Replace your track/wiring until you don't have a dead spot.    Replace the slips with designs which don't have 1 second gaps in conductivity.     We're into the old question of :  "are stay alives a band-aid for poor quality elsewhere, or a Rolls-Royce running tweak for already good designs". 

 

Damage....    loco valve gear gets something from the scenery in it,  how much can you mangle with a loco which can't stop for 20-seconds ?      Loco leaves track for some reason, how far does it go horizontally before falling to the floor.   

 

 

[ColinB]

58 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Replace your track/wiring until you don't have a dead spot.    Replace the slips with designs which don't have 1 second gaps in conductivity.     We're into the old question of :  "are stay alives a band-aid for poor quality elsewhere, or a Rolls-Royce running tweak for already good designs". 

 

Damage....    loco valve gear gets something from the scenery in it,  how much can you mangle with a loco which can't stop for 20-seconds ?      Loco leaves track for some reason, how far does it go horizontally before falling to the floor.   

 

 

Why would they make them if there wasn't a need. You obviously have never used a Peco streamline double slip as one look at them would reveal a huge plastic frog. In actual fact originally I  used large diamonds but the plastic frog area on them is even larger. Separate medium radius points would take up too much room. You obviously don't like them so that is up to you, as I only fit them on 0-6-0 there isn't a lot of valve gear to mess up and if it did I would replace it. Now as to my Hornby locos that have it fitted so that the HM7000 works properly then that is another story. Have you never ever noticed that on some points if you have a small wheelbase 0-6-0 that it can actually pivot on the centre wheel, obviously not. As to your suggestion that you would only allow 1 second, then explain to me why everyone is trying to fit big and bigger capacitors. If you only wanted a second you could probably get away with a lot smaller capacitor. As to rewiring my layout, the dead spots are where the electrofrog frog sections are working properly and I have been looking at better methods for powering them. 0-6-0 locos are always a pain unless your layout is perfectly flat and Peco made perfectly flat points which they generally don't.

 

Anyway I found out what I wanted to know, perhaps you should enlighten Hornby and Accurascale because both of their "stay alives" are in excess of 20 seconds.

[WIMorrison]

49 minutes ago, ColinB said:

Why would they make them if there wasn't a need.

 

• Why do they make cars that are capable of 130mph yet the speed limit is only 70mph?

 

Answer - because they can sell them to people who are led to believe that it is 'good' and they should have all this reserve available just in case they need it.

 

• Why do they make televisions that can handle hundreds of channels?

 

Answer - because they can and it doesn't cost anymore to make one that handles 200 channels compered to one that only displays 5 channels.

 

People, many of them on this forum and including Nigel, have been building model railway for more years than DCC or stay-alives have been around and we all managed to run our DC layouts without them and didn't suffer from the issues that stay-alives are meant to 'cure'. The reason we didn't suffer or see the need for them was because we fixed the track issues that caused the stuttering or stalling. We knew how to make the roadbed, we knew how to lay the track, we knew how to level the track and hence even the lowly Hornby 0-6-0 that I started with didn't stutter or stall on turnouts, slips, or crossings - and it still doesn't, even now it is running on DCC, with much more modern track.

 

Stay-alives mask the issues of poor trackwork, nothing more, nothing less and they are available with these extremely large capacities because some locos will drain this in a few seconds, but because they have a large capacity doesn't mean you need to let it run for an excessively long time, the same as you don't have to drive the car at 130mph or try to watch all 200 channels. They make them because it is cheaper to make one that will support the worst case scenario rather than make different sizes, they make them because they know that people do not try to resolve poor trackwork, they simply use technology to cure very simple faults.

 

For the record, I NEVER use stay-alives and have corrected the trackwork issues that stuttering or stalling indicates when you would have, presumably, relied on a stay-alive rather than sort the track.

 

 

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 

• Why do they make cars that are capable of 130mph yet the speed limit is only 70mph?

 

Answer - because they can sell them to people who are led to believe that it is 'good' and they should have all this reserve available just in case they need it.

 

• Why do they make televisions that can handle hundreds of channels?

 

Answer - because they can and it doesn't cost anymore to make one that handles 200 channels compered to one that only displays 5 channels.

 

People, many of them on this forum and including Nigel, have been building model railway for more years than DCC or stay-alives have been around and we all managed to run our DC layouts without them and didn't suffer from the issues that stay-alives are meant to 'cure'. The reason we didn't suffer or see the need for them was because we fixed the track issues that caused the stuttering or stalling. We knew how to make the roadbed, we knew how to lay the track, we knew how to level the track and hence even the lowly Hornby 0-6-0 that I started with didn't stutter or stall on turnouts, slips, or crossings - and it still doesn't, even now it is running on DCC, with much more modern track.

 

Stay-alives mask the issues of poor trackwork, nothing more, nothing less and they are available with these extremely large capacities because some locos will drain this in a few seconds, but because they have a large capacity doesn't mean you need to let it run for an excessively long time, the same as you don't have to drive the car at 130mph or try to watch all 200 channels. They make them because it is cheaper to make one that will support the worst case scenario rather than make different sizes, they make them because they know that people do not try to resolve poor trackwork, they simply use technology to cure very simple faults.

 

For the record, I NEVER use stay-alives and have corrected the trackwork issues that stuttering or stalling indicates when you would have, presumably, relied on a stay-alive rather than sort the track.

 

 

If you don't want to use them then don't, I honestly don't care. Electronics is designed to make things easier if you want to come and level my 16 foot by 10 foot track with 80 points then you are welcome to, but don't criticise some of us that would prefer running the locos. End of story.

[WIMorrison]

8 minutes ago, ColinB said:

If you don't want to use them then don't, I honestly don't care. Electronics is designed to make things easier if you want to come and level my 16 foot by 10 foot track with 80 points then you are welcome to, but don't criticise some of us that would prefer running the locos. End of story.

 

If you had read the manual for your Train-O-Matic and Zimo decoders then this story wouldn't even have needed to have been started 😂

 

However at least you now know that stay-alives are not required, and that they merely hide more fundamental underlying problems.

[ColinB]

33 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

If you had read the manual for your Train-O-Matic and Zimo decoders then this story wouldn't even have needed to have been started 😂

 

However at least you now know that stay-alives are not required, and that they merely hide more fundamental underlying problems.

Yes possibly you are right I must I never thought someone would put something in that is really not that useful. Capacitors define time constants so if you don't want a long time constant then make the capacitor smaller. So yes I didn't read the manual not that bit anyway because I am not interested in playing with CVs. You don't use "stay alives", so what many people do so you shouldn't criticise people that do it just makes you look incredibly negative. I hate people that "hard wire" decoders because of all the maintenance issues they raise, but if they want to do it then all I can do is advise. I definitely would not do what you do and start criticising them. I asked for advice and at least some people pointed me in the right direction. Fortunately I don't have to meet you in real life.

[WIMorrison]

1 minute ago, ColinB said:

Fortunately I don't have to meet you in real life.

 

Absolutely agree, but at least with me you get what you see - I don't make posts and then hide them 😉

[McC]

3 hours ago, ColinB said:

Anyway I found out what I wanted to know, perhaps you should enlighten Hornby and Accurascale because both of their "stay alives" are in excess of 20 seconds.

 

Our coach stay alives are designed for 10 seconds of lighting off power. Our locomotive and unit stay alives are designed for up to 10 seconds of all sound, motor under load and lights active. Obviously if you remove some of that power draw you will get more mileage but the super capacitors are optimal size and cost relative to the job they are asked to do (mainly prevent the loco stalling on dirt or poor sections or - arguably its primary function - the sound cutting out and restarting) 

[AY Mod]

19 minutes ago, ColinB said:

What are you on about I haven't hidden any posts unless the system has. Don't you think you are being rather petty for a grown man. If the post is hidden I would like to know which one, unless it is the one that seemed to not appear. Either what has this to do with the subject, absolutely nothing. As I have said I found out what I needed to know, so I don't need all this nor do you, it just brings this forum into disrepute and stops people posting.

 

One of your earlier posts was removed after a report so I suggest it would be prudent to wind the attitude in.

[peterm1]

Hoping I don't get on the wrong side of ColinB, here. I use Zimo sound decoders and lais stay alives. I set CV153 to 20 which is 2 seconds and CV 111 to 1. CV 111 set to i negates the braking effect from CV 4, so the loco stops dead after the 2 seconds. This stops it from running into anything. The advantage of stay alives is, as others have said, is that a dead spot, such as dirt or a gap in the contacts of a turntable don't cause the sound to restart.

[ColinB]

8 hours ago, peterm1 said:

Hoping I don't get on the wrong side of ColinB, here. I use Zimo sound decoders and lais stay alives. I set CV153 to 20 which is 2 seconds and CV 111 to 1. CV 111 set to i negates the braking effect from CV 4, so the loco stops dead after the 2 seconds. This stops it from running into anything. The advantage of stay alives is, as others have said, is that a dead spot, such as dirt or a gap in the contacts of a turntable don't cause the sound to restart.

You won't upset me you can set it to what you want, I just wanted to know why one one it was 20 seconds on the other 4 seconds which got answered, so I was happy. I didn't want to get into the whys and wherefores of "stay alive". I fit it to my 0-6-0 and my old ringfield based locos because it makes life easier, on my pacific locos with tender pickups there is generally no need.  

[55020]

What a shame this thread seems to have generated so much emotion, as there's some good learning to be had. 

 

For the sake of completeness, whilst also recognising the OP was asking about about certain products, it's worth pointing out that most quality decoders will allow for the adjustment of 'run on time'.

If anyone with ESU decoders is looking to make an adjustment then CV113 is the variable to adjust, with a possible value between 0 & 255.

 

Having looked at the HM7000 manual I can't see any CV that allows control of the run on time, but as I don't own any I'm not in a strong position to confirm that!

 

 

Steve