JUST ABOUT TO GIVE UP!!

[transferman]

I have been trying for several years now to build an OO gauge layout.

I am now stuck on points and control thereof.

There will be 27 points on the layout so that means an awful lot of control devices.

I was told that ESP equipment would cut down on wiring but after conversations with DCC Concept it seems that it doesn't really!

Using Electrofrog point I need to switch frog polarity and that means 3 control wires and 3 for the point motor X 27, you can see the problem.

I have just become aware of Unifrog points and wondered if they would eliminate the need for frog polarity changes, and hence do away with the need for control gear.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Pete the Elaner]

Switching frog polarity does not require anything outside of the board to which the point is mounted. It would be 3 extra wires per point though.

Whether you need to connect a Unifrog depends on what you intend to run. If you have small tank locos, then it may reduce stalling. If you run bogie diesel/electric locos then they should cope without, assuming of course your wheels & pickups are not filthy.

 

Regarding the amount of wiring required for point control, solenoids would usually require 1 switched supply per coil plus 1 common return. Stall or servo types need 2 per motor, the polarity of which gets reversed when the point is thrown. This is 1 less wire (big deal) but it can be taken further:

How about a 0v common to all motors with the other one switched between -12 & +12v (assuming the motors are 12v)? You would then halve the number of switched connections required for solenoid motors. The DC power supplies would need to be isolated from each other, maybe even fed from separate transformer windings, but it would make wiring less complex.

[ITG]

I’ve no experience of unifrog so cannot comment directly, but I understand you can use straight out of the box. However, I would assume they are effectively ‘insulfrog’ in that condition, so you’re not getting the same outcome as electrofrog, namely what many would say was better running. This may depend on what you’re running. Diesels with pick-ups in each bogie may not be affected, but short wheelbase (0-4-0 or

0-6-0 or similar) may stutter (or even stall)  when negotiating dead frogs.

If operating DCC, particularly sound, this stutter/stall may be more noticeble.

So, in summary, what you called extra wiring may be worth the effort.

Ian
 

[JohnR]

A unifrog point is merely a point that can act as either an electrofrog point (where the frog is live depending on the direction the point is set) or as an insulfrog point (where the frog is electrically dead, which can result in a loss of current, perhaps more noticeable with DCC and DCC sound locomotives with short wheelbases).

 

You can change the polarity of the frog via a switch on your point motor, either via an add-on to the PECO solenoid type or built in with one the Gaugemaster SEEP point motors (I forget which model). 

 

If you are controlling the point motors by DCC decoder, instead of by wiring back to a control panel, then the connection can be made to the accessory decoder. 

[Flying Pig]

3 minutes ago, JohnR said:

A unifrog point is merely a point that can act as either an electrofrog point (where the frog is live depending on the direction the point is set) or as an insulfrog point (where the frog is electrically dead, which can result in a loss of current, perhaps more noticeable with DCC and DCC sound locomotives with short wheelbases).

 

As I understand, Unifrog is not exactly like either traditional electrofrog or insulfrog, since both diverging roads remain live regardless of the position of the blades.  Both traditional types make one road 'dead' (though the way they do it differs) which is useful on a DC layout but may be undesirable on DCC if features on locos or stock are required to continue operating.  If points have been used for power switching, replacing them with unifrogs will need further thought.

[Harlequin]

What devices do you use to change your points?  Whatever that device is, that's what should be changing your frog polarity, ideally. Only three short wires required for each turnout.

 

Unifrog still has a frog that needs to be switched, as above.

 

Remember that Unifrog only covers a limited subset of the Peco Streamline geometries: Large left/right, Medium left/right, Crossing, Single slip and Double slip.

 

Edit: And P.S. The simplest way to change frog polarity is to leave the Electrofrog turnout unmodified and let it do it for you. There are pros and cons to that.

 

Edited January 10 by Harlequin

[ISW]

51 minutes ago, transferman said:

I am now stuck on points and control thereof.

I was in a similar position when I started my layout. I decided to go with Megapoints Controllers (just a customer) having been impressed with the simplicity of the system.

 

52 minutes ago, transferman said:

There will be 27 points on the layout so that means an awful lot of control devices.

With Megapoints Controllers that'd be 2x 12-servo controller boards + 1x 4-servo controller boards (assuming a 'favourable' grouping of the turnouts to ease wiring lengths). You can control the turnouts from using the servo boards, or have the whole lot controlled from a MultiPanel board (which is what I did - In fact I ended up with 3x MultiPanels, as I have ~90-turnouts).

 

57 minutes ago, transferman said:

I was told that ESP equipment would cut down on wiring but after conversations with DCC Concept it seems that it doesn't really!

 

It 'can' be quite simple. This is what I use to provide 'power' to the turnouts. Each little veroboard is for 2-turnouts (aka a crossover!):

 

The servos themselves I bought off TheBay. Back then, in 2020, they cost less than £2 each. These are then mounted in an aluminium channel (B&Q ...) using the method originally recommended by Megapoints Controllers (they now sell their own little bracket, but it costs more). The microswitches (~20pence) came from Switch Electronics (who are also on TheBay as LED essential):

 

When assembled, they look like this:

 

Once it's all installed under a baseboard, it looks something like this, which I think is quite tidy and doesn't use 'too many' wires, thanks to the Megapoints boards (if you want any addition descriptions, let me know):

 

Hope this helps. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to achieve the same outcome (eg: MERG has similar equipment), but this should indicate how 'simple' it actually can be. Yes, it looks complicated in that last photo, but it's just a lot of the same simple elements.

 

Ian

[melmerby]

If you are using DCC, you only need two wires from the controller to the point decoder(s).

e.g. NCE Switch-8 will control 8 Tortoise type point motors, which have 2 changeover switches for frog polarity switching.

It gets it's power from the DCC signal, which can come from the track (not ideal) or via a separate accessory bus from the controller.

 

An alternative are MPB MP-1 point motors driven from something like a Yamorc YD8116

Edited January 10 by melmerby

[woodenhead]

Using an NCE Powercab I have one bus that feeds track and point motors.

 

The point motors are IP Digital motors and the frog is switched and powered from the motor.

 

OK It's not a complicated layout, just 14 points but I control it all from the Powercab and I can string motors together in macros to route set if I chose to.

[jpendle]

3 hours ago, transferman said:

Using Electrofrog point I need to switch frog polarity and that means 3 control wires and 3 for the point motor X 27, you can see the problem.

If you use Tortoise/NCE Switch 8, or MTB MP1/Yamorc YD8116 then it's 5 wires per point motor.

 

But what you seem to be saying is that the 135 wires required is far too many for you to consider, is that right?

 

You can eliminate the frog polarity wiring by keeping your point blades scrupulously clean, so now you would be down to 52 wires. Is that still too many?

 

But don't forget that, if you are using DCC, then you'll probably have a couple of dozen wire pair droppers to connect to your track bus as well.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[woodenhead]

Of course digitally controlled points can be switched without any wires

[transferman]

Interesting! Please enlighten me.

Chris

[njee20]

"Digit"-ally, ie with your finger.

[transferman]

OK guys, thanks for your many and varied comments and advice.

 

You have convinced me that there is no way around the problem and will revert to plan A and give up!!

 

Many thanks,

 

Chris

 

[Chimer]

On 10/01/2024 at 15:19, Harlequin said:

What devices do you use to change your points?  Whatever that device is, that's what should be changing your frog polarity, ideally. Only three short wires required for each turnout.

 

Unifrog still has a frog that needs to be switched, as above.

 

Remember that Unifrog only covers a limited subset of the Peco Streamline geometries: Large left/right, Medium left/right, Crossing, Single slip and Double slip.

 

Edit: And P.S. The simplest way to change frog polarity is to leave the Electrofrog turnout unmodified and let it do it for you. There are pros and cons to that.

 

 

Stick with this and ignore everything else!  Life is just not that complicated ....

[rogerzilla]

Electrofrog points, if you can still find them new, work out of the box with live frogs but rely on contact between the switch rails and the stock rails.  Depending on how messy you are with track painting/ballasting, or general oxidation over time, the contact becomes less reliable.  A fibreglass brush can be used to clean up the contacts.

[griffgriff]

There are 3 solutions.

 

1 bite the bullet… 27 x 3 isn’t that many and you’ll be much faster soldering up the 81st wire than the first.

 

2 use insulated crossings with DCC stay alive chips in those locos that are at risk of stalling.

 

3 reduce the number of turnouts to make wiring simpler on a first project.

 

…what you mustn’t do, is give up.

 

Griff

[tynewydd]

I have 122 points/turnouts all Seep motor controlled and ElectroFrog wired into the (in my case DCC Concepts Digital) point motors for switching. There are two powering wires from the accessory bus to each motor and one short wire from the frog to the included switch on the motor and two wires to from that switch to the secondary bus. In some cases the switch is the other end motor (double slip) or is an auto-electronic switch (diamond).  It is a process, but by having the switch with onboard DCC, it is manageable where for me, wiring everything back to a central point is not. Chaçun à son goût. 

The point is you need to pick a systematic approach and follow through. In my case two DCC buses to every board, and then dropper wires to each point motor and the electrofrog special dropper to the point motor. It took about an evening a baseboard to do on average - but some of them had 20 motors.  I guess my total count was about 600 dropper wires.  Looking back now, I would have used a different joint system to make the bus to dropper wire connections rather than soldering each one, but at least I always worked with the board inverted or on its side. 

In full disclosure, then there are the detection sections wired via windings on DCC detectors to do as well if you intend to be able to automate or semi-automate sections.  And you will need more for signals....  Still the aim should be, IMO, short wires to the common DCC accessory bus. 

Adam
 

[roythebus1]

Being old school, it's possible to use solenoid motors with a + and - pair to every motor and one wire to work the solenoids, same principle as two-way light circuits at home and the -12v and +12v mentioned above. You switch 15v ac round the + and -  to every motor and on the control panel a single pole changeover switch to feed - or+ down the control wire. 

 

I've seen DCC wiring on club layouts, it's so complicated I really can't get my head round it. People say yes but there's only 2 wires required, maybe so to every board but under every board there's more wires than under my DC analogue layout. And loads of expensive electronic gadgets and more wires. There's no easy answer to wiring except a circle of track with 2 wires going to it.

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Being old school, it's possible to use solenoid motors with a + and - pair to every motor and one wire to work the solenoids, same principle as two-way light circuits at home and the -12v and +12v mentioned above. You switch 15v ac round the + and -  to every motor and on the control panel a single pole changeover switch to feed - or+ down the control wire. 

 

I've seen DCC wiring on club layouts, it's so complicated I really can't get my head round it. People say yes but there's only 2 wires required, maybe so to every board but under every board there's more wires than under my DC analogue layout. And loads of expensive electronic gadgets and more wires. There's no easy answer to wiring except a circle of track with 2 wires going to it.

Maybe so, but there are endless questions about wiring up very simple layouts for DC operation on RMweb. So it's a case of if you do understand how things work, then follow what you are 100% familiar with, if that's what you want to do.

Others like to 'learn' DCC, because it solves many problems of previous DC layouts. Lots of features available on DCC, sometimes DC layout owners want to replicate those features, WITHOUT going DCC - very odd.

 

No one system is 100% the answer, or we would all follow it.

[roythebus1]

Hornby Dublo tinplate clockwork is the answer, no wiring required. :)

[KingEdwardII]

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

it's possible to use solenoid motors with a + and - pair to every motor and one wire to work the solenoids

DCC enabled turnout motors really can work with just 2 wires total - and those are usually droppers from a single 2 wire bus. More wires are only needed for additional tasks like controlling the frog polarity of electrofrog turnouts.

 

13 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

DCC wiring on club layouts, it's so complicated

DCC wiring can truly be simple - one 2 wire bus for the track and one 2 wire bus for the accessories, with droppers to the track and to the accessories. Something I never found possible with DC, since on DC there is the need to have isolated sections to hold locos and then switches to control the power to those sections. And each isolated section typically requires a pair of wires running back to a control panel of some kind. As for accessories like turnout motors, DC typically requires at least a pair of wires from control panel to each turnout motor - and similar for signals.

 

On my current DCC layout the only long distance wiring is the 2 pairs of bus wires. I have nothing like the fat bundles of wires I had on previous DC layouts.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

5 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

DCC enabled turnout motors really can work with just 2 wires total - and those are usually droppers from a single 2 wire bus. More wires are only needed for additional tasks like controlling the frog polarity of electrofrog turnouts.

 

DCC wiring can truly be simple - one 2 wire bus for the track and one 2 wire bus for the accessories, with droppers to the track and to the accessories. Something I never found possible with DC, since on DC there is the need to have isolated sections to hold locos and then switches to control the power to those sections. And each isolated section typically requires a pair of wires running back to a control panel of some kind. As for accessories like turnout motors, DC typically requires at least a pair of wires from control panel to each turnout motor - and similar for signals.

 

On my current DCC layout the only long distance wiring is the 2 pairs of bus wires. I have nothing like the fat bundles of wires I had on previous DC layouts.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

 

Can't agree more. On my old DC layout block power feeds all required individual switches. Power to point motors (SEEPS or Hornby surface mount) was routed through a single CDU with two long power wires and possibly a shorter common return wire. Even if i used multiple CDU's I would still have to run the power from the auxiliary output of the DC controller, or do something equivalent.

 

Now i have accessory decoders for different clusters of point motors with a maximum run of 2M and many less than 1M. All layout power is via a single bus, so the accessory decoders have a pair of wires about 30cm long, to power them.

 

What I did improve was reliability by use of more droppers to individual track elements where previously I had relied more on fishplates to carry power. So more wires but short ones from track to bus, typically no more than 0.5M. Layout is folded but 22M long.

 

Still to come is detection, again with short cables to a detection module on one side of the bus only. Short cables connect the module to the power bus, 30cm or so.

 

Summary - DCC, shorter cables distributed around the layout; DC, very long cables to whereveer the controller was. I would never go near DC again.

[4firstimes]

Interesting following this article of the frustrations of wiring points for solenoid operation and electro-frog r uni-frog. Switching to DCC several years ago I have looked looked back and always fail to understand other modellers fustrations. Having several layouts Arisaig and Cromer Road, both use DCc to control the points signals and Block dectection. Carefully planing minimises inter baseboard joint connections, and with two DCC power buses one for the track and one for the accessories , why bother building a layout with DCc to power the trains and DC points and signals. This forum has mentioned several systems for operating points , and I would recommend the advice, for solenoids I prefer NCE snap it to operate peco or seep point motors. With Two wires from the DCC accessory bus and three wires from the point motor to the snap it, simple self contained units. Although I prefer to use something called a frog juicer to  switch the power on electro frog or unifrog points, again two wires from the accessory bus to the juicer and one wire from the point frog to the juicer , simple set up. I have just done away with the control panel on Cromer Road, converting the panel to an LED display using DCC concepts components, interesting finding the cause of an intermittent short. My operators love using an iPad to operate the layouts with wires and remotely from the layout. 
DCC operated layouts including points and signals are no different to work with just need a methodical approach after which you would never want to switch to DC. Slipping in that New scenic feature becomes simple. The skills of fellow modellers will aways help with the frustrations.

[KingEdwardII]

2 hours ago, 4firstimes said:

for solenoids I prefer NCE snap it to operate peco or seep point motors

Long ago I used solenoids for turnouts, but my discovery of slow action motors has changed my outlook completely. All my turnout motors are now slow action (MTB MP1s in my case), driven from DCC accessory controllers and with no requirement for CDUs. The motors have a self contained switch to handle frog polarity on my electrofrog turnouts. Simple and straightforward.

 

All this combines to enable computer control of the whole layout - covering locos, turnouts and signals. My "control panel" is now a computer touch screen - both a large static one in a fixed location and also small mobile ones in the form of smartphones.

 

Yours, Mike.