Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?

[RJS1977]

12 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

That may very well be true if you actually look at the prices (bearing in mind of course that measuring inflation, cost of living, etc is an inexact science), but that is not the public perception.

 

And a comment on recent posts - absolutely railway enthusiasm is alive and well. But not all railway enthusiasts are interested in model railways.

 

 

From what I remember of my 40 years in the hobby, for a long time, bogie coaches were  £10, bogie diesel/electric locos were a little over £20 and bif steam tender engines were £50-£60. At the time, I think wages were rising reasonably quickly (at least keeping up with inflation). In the 90s there were some issues with exchange rates etc that led to Lima prices going up a bit, but otherwise modelling prices were quite stable.

 

The first of the post-China models like the retooled Bulleid Light Pacifics were IIRC about £75. Since then, we've seen prices continue to rise, partly because of other economic pressures like the fall in the pound, raw materials costs and Chinese wages, whilst UK wages have risen much more slowly, but also by the "arms race" between the manufacturers in pushing for ever more detailed models (whether the consumer wants them or not). I think a comparison of prices vs wages since 2000 or 2010 would tell a different story than since 1980.

 

Of course there's also a psychological factor. One of the traders I see regularly told me some years ago that his sales dropped off when tender locos passed the £100 mark.

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

15 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

That may very well be true if you actually look at the prices (bearing in mind of course that measuring inflation, cost of living, etc is an inexact science), but that is not the public perception.

 

And a comment on recent posts - absolutely railway enthusiasm is alive and well. But not all railway enthusiasts are interested in model railways.

It's actually a pretty exact science, but sadly I doubt any economist is going to go to the trouble of doing a study on model railway affordability over time. I'd read it if anyone did. 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

2 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

 

From what I remember of my 40 years in the hobby, for a long time, bogie coaches were  £10, bogie diesel/electric locos were a little over £20 and bif steam tender engines were £50-£60. At the time, I think wages were rising reasonably quickly (at least keeping up with inflation). In the 90s there were some issues with exchange rates etc that led to Lima prices going up a bit, but otherwise modelling prices were quite stable.

 

The first of the post-China models like the retooled Bulleid Light Pacifics were IIRC about £75. Since then, we've seen prices continue to rise, partly because of other economic pressures like the fall in the pound, raw materials costs and Chinese wages, whilst UK wages have risen much more slowly, but also by the "arms race" between the manufacturers in pushing for ever more detailed models (whether the consumer wants them or not). I think a comparison of prices vs wages since 2000 or 2010 would tell a different story than since 1980.

 

Of course there's also a psychological factor. One of the traders I see regularly told me some years ago that his sales dropped off when tender locos passed the £100 mark. 

The base data is quite easy to get hold of.

Hornby catalogue prices are available online back to the 80s at least. 

The Bank of England have a basic inflation calculator which lets you compare prices.

And the ONS has plenty of data about wage growth. 

However...

Changes in real wages, real costs of living and the impact on purchasing power over time are much more more complicated, but if there are any friendly economists on here I'm sure it wouldn't be beyond them to have a go at assessing changes in affordability of models over the past few decades. 

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

One of the traders I see regularly told me some years ago that his sales dropped off when tender locos passed the £100 mark.

 

That would have been the Bachmann 9F, 18 years ago. I assume he's still going so it can't be all bad since then.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 15/01/2024 at 20:43, wombatofludham said:

And there is the problem which leads to the moronic press wailing about the end of model railways

Go look at the crowds of youngsters filming 66s, 70s, Pendolino, Desiro and Voyagers at Stafford Station.  Go look at the hours of video of modern rail operations on YouTube.  Look at the numbers who paid to go on the last 313 emu railtour, and the first preserved Class 142 mainline railtour.  Even I paid good money to go on the last 150 railtour of the Midlands which, of course was not the last in the Midlands as the 150 keeps coming back like an eggy burp.  It was maxed out and no doubt a source of complete befuddlement to those rail enthusiasts who thought the railway died when Sprinters took over.  Whatever.

You may not like the modern railway but I can assure you as someone who has dipped into these videos and actually noticed the numbers of young enthusiasts out filming and taking photos that in a few years time there will be crowds bashing the last Voyagers and Pendolini to the bewilderment of their older brethren for whom the railway ceased to be interesting when the last 150 and 158 went for recycling.

And yes, if I have an hour to kill in Rugeley I enjoy parking up at RTV to watch the trains go by, I don't care if they are not my beloved Classes 81-90, 47s and 56s, I enjoy watching a railway which is more relevant, busier and faster, and the fact Rugeley has it's best train service since the days of the LNWR and is used.

Some enthusiasts need to bin their rose tinted pebble glasses and matching white cane and take a broader view.

To be fair they're watching and filming what they know and what's around them just as there's of us filmed and watched what we knew back in the 60s, 70s and 80s it's not really all that different. I do still consider the railway a poorer place since privatisation,  however there will be those who considered it the same after Nationalisation. The model industry can't please everyone at once and thus popularity will come in waves. Especially as each new generation becomes old enough to go spotting.  I reckon it might be the same with Bus enthusiasts, probably truck and plane enthusiasts and slot car racers too. 

Edited January 17 by The Evil Bus Driver
The ever present typo.

[hmrspaul]

More nonsense to come? ITV News 10.30 introduction film and comment about end of Model Railways. Yet to see what they have to say. 

 

Paul

[PhilH]

5 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

More nonsense to come? ITV News 10.30 introduction film and comment about end of Model Railways. Yet to see what they have to say. 

 

Paul

To me this is totally in line with the current propensity of news vendors to only broadcast or print bad news/ doom and gloom. I think it's an absolute given that if the headline had been '1,000,000% increase in model rail enthusiasts in the UK' it wouldn't have even made the last 10 seconds of a broadcast or the next to to last page of the newspaper.

Again, to me, it's just another symptom of the really weird world we live in at the moment.

[APOLLO]

42 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

That would have been the Bachmann 9F, 18 years ago. I assume he's still going so it can't be all bad since then.

 

Yes that was my first £100+ (just) loco, but worth every penny, still a superb runner. But my later fifty odd pound from dear old Hattons Hornby Railroad 9F's (several) are very good also. Better value ? - Perhaps.

 

At the age of 71 and a lifelong buyer of models, though new releases may tempt, I have decided recently that I have quite enough stuff. Thats more or less it for me on new release models. How many more "Boomers" (old gits !!) like me are cutting back on purchases as they age ? Hardly mentioned in this interesting thread.

 

The cost of living crisis does not help, especially for new / young hobbyists.

 

Model Railways as a hobby will survive and prosper, but perhaps not in ways we might wish or want.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

[hmrspaul]

27 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

More nonsense to come? ITV News 10.30 introduction film and comment about end of Model Railways. Yet to see what they have to say. 

 

Paul

Well I was mistaken. A very positive take on the hobby from Cheltenham. Interesting that the shop owner suggested the new TT is selling very well. Pete W putting the spin on that there used to be two manufacturer's (!!) now 7. 

 

Paul

PS, and to give no details I've assisted two manufacturer's in the past week with new projects, both of which were a surprise. 

 

 

Edited January 15 by hmrspaul

[SM42]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

That would have been the Bachmann 9F, 18 years ago. I assume he's still going so it can't be all bad since then.

 

Not all doom and gloom, even if the hackneyed nautical terms inevitably creep in

 

Andy

[PMP]

25 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

More nonsense to come? ITV News 10.30 introduction film and comment about end of Model Railways. 

 

Paul

Far from it a balanced, positive 2 minute piece. Thank you itv for some researched journalism.

[LNER4479]

'Reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated ...'

 

Thanks Andy for providing a thread to bring together views on this. I'm definitely in the 'glass half full' camp. The brave new world features digital things and influencers like 'Sam's Trains' ... but that doesn't mean the hobby is dying, just evolving.

 

I'm one of those who believe there were too many shows pre-Covid - I certainly don't remember that many shows 40 years ago? And whilst it's a shock that a show like Warley has fallen by the wayside, there's certainly plenty of others to either visit or lug your layout to.

 

See you at Doncaster. And York. And Bristol. And Gaydon ...

[bradfordbuffer]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Maybe you are onto something.

 

I asked Google Bard to "Write a news story for the closure of Hattons Model Railways and Warley Model Railway Club not holding further exhibitions at the NEC."

 

The response...

 

Double blow for UK Model Railway Enthusiasts: Hattons Closes, Warley Exits NEC

 

Shockwaves rippled through the British model railway community this week as two major institutions announced their departure from the scene. Hattons Model Railways, a beloved retailer for over 77 years, announced its permanent closure, while the Warley Model Railway Club, after 30 years, confirmed they will no longer host their renowned exhibition at the NEC Birmingham.

 

Hattons, a family-run business since 1946, served generations of hobbyists with an extensive range of model trains, kits, and accessories. Their closure, attributed to rising costs and a changing retail landscape, leaves a significant void in the industry. Customers expressed sadness and gratitude online, sharing memories of browsing Hattons' shelves and receiving expert advice.

 

The Warley Show, once a flagship event for model railway enthusiasts across the UK, will no longer grace the halls of the NEC. Citing declining attendance and a changing demographic, the Warley Model Railway Club made the difficult decision to step back from large-scale exhibitions. The Club emphasized their commitment to supporting hobbyists at the local level and exploring alternative formats for showcasing their passion.

 

This double blow raises concerns about the future of the model railway hobby in the UK. Some fear a decline in engagement, particularly among younger generations. However, others see an opportunity for smaller clubs and online communities to flourish, fostering a more intimate and collaborative spirit within the hobby.

 

"It's a sad day, but it's not the end of the hobby," said Sarah Jones, President of the British Model Railway Association. "Hattons and Warley played significant roles, but their absence simply means new opportunities will emerge. We need to adapt and find new ways to inspire and engage."

 

The closures, while undoubtedly bittersweet, have sparked conversations about the future of the model railway hobby. Whether in local clubs, online forums, or through innovative new events, the spirit of miniature tracks and chugging locomotives is unlikely to fade away. The next chapter may be different, but it promises to be filled with the same passion and creativity that has driven this beloved hobby for generations.

 

 

With a caveat...

This news story provides a factual and objective overview of the closures, while acknowledging the impact on the community and offering a perspective on the potential future of the hobby. It includes quotes from relevant figures and avoids speculation or negativity. Remember to adjust the details if you have specific information about the closures, such as exact dates or specific reasons for the decision.

 

 

There's only one howler in there - marked in red; the rest is probably better than the output of the Telegraph or Independent

 

 

Bonkers if AI can pen this...the more frightening thing is the readers think its all true! 

[wombatofludham]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

. How many more "Boomers" (old gits !!) like me are cutting back on purchases as they age ? Hardly mentioned in this interesting thread.

 

This "Boomer" is 61 in just over a week's time, and has just shelled out 800 sovs for a fantastic hand built Class 310 (which will almost certainly mean Bachmann announcing an RTR model).  Why and how? I really wanted one, and as I don't waste money on ephemeral holidays which are over in 14 days I could use the money others would spend on getting bladdered on the Costa Chav on a model which will still be here long after the sunburn has become rain washed paleness.

Cutting back?  No, just making informed choices.

[jjb1970]

On prices, there are people who genuinely can't afford super detail RTR and for who cheap s/h would be a luxury purchase. There's a section of society for which access to a balanced healthy diet and a safe place to sleep is their primary concern. Something we should keep in mind when whinging about the cost of models and discretionary hobbies. 

 

On prices, I think for most people here it is less a case of can't and more a case of don't like. Inflation is real, there is a cost of living issue in Britain and many other countries but at the same time how many of those complaining about prices have a current model expensive mobile phone and tablet, expensive clothes, go out to eat and drink etc? Nothing wrong with any of that but what seems to upset people really is that there are limits to what we can do. A budget is like a pie, make a discretionary spend pie and we can cut it anyway we like but when we've eaten the whole pie that's it. For balance, I have known people at the opposite extreme, who have spent insane amounts on models while living in squalor. Again, their choice to make but I have put noses out of joint by pointing out if they can spend so much on models they could buy good food if they wanted to in response to whinges about the cost of food.

 

If we are lucky enough to be in a position to make choices then we can make our own, but we are responsible for the decisions we make. My boss is a golf fanatic, he spends $$$$$$$s indulging that passion and I have never heard him whinge about prices of golf bats or the cost of a weekendin Vietnam to play golf. Now people might say 'he can afford it', yes but his budget is not limitless and other than golf he has a very modest lifestyle, he spends his discretionary budget on golf and accepts that doing so limits his ability to do other things. Many RMWeb members regularly talk about how much they have on pre-order, serious £££££££s, indicating that they clearly aren't in dire financial straits.

[bradfordbuffer]

14 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Although last week was one of those seismic moments (for our hobby) with the announcements that Hattons were to close and Warley MRC was to cease holding our hobby’s largest show at the NEC it was alarming to read some of the reactions on social media. On RMweb comments were mostly sympathetic, appreciative and comprehending of wider pictures but when the news was reported in two national media titles, the Daily Telegraph and Guardian with titles of “‘Death of the model railway’ as ageing enthusiasts run out of steam” and “‘An aged hobby’: enthusiasts struggle to keep model railway industry on track” respectively it makes you wonder if such media correspondents don’t look beyond the shallow, self-interested and myopic comments I read on Facebook and Youtube?

 

To be frank; they don’t care – it’s a headline for online clickbait. I wouldn’t think they’d be launching a campaign to reinvigorate a traditional hobby. Even Rail Express, who you would think would want to take a balanced view says ”Fears For The Future Of Model Railways As Warley National Model Railway Exhibition Closes ‘For The Forseeable Future” https://www.railexpress.co.uk/14278/fears-for-the-future-of-model-railways-as-warley-national-model-railway-exhibition-closes/

 

I was about to say that I think we’re experiencing a significant change point in the hobby but now I don’t think we are. We're now seeing a bit of fallout, a blip, a footnote that was an indicator that we have gone through a significant step change in the evolution of the hobby over the last two decades with the rise of the internet, new start-ups, customer behaviour changes, boom and bust pricing and many other factors. Evolution is not just a constant linear progression, events or abnormalities occur and entities well placed to secure an advantage in a re-arranged world see old things wither and new things thrive.

 

What is doing the most harm to the hobby are not these changes as there are, and will continue to be, other shows to visit and other retailers and manufacturers to buy from. But the Jeremiahs of Facebook and YouTube don’t want that. What they want you, me and everyone else to know is that the hobby is doomed because everyone in it is old and can’t afford to pay rising prices or that they are young and can’t afford these prices etc. True; some can’t and there is an ongoing squeeze on the budgets of many, many ordinary people. However, no-one is telling those people they can’t continue to take part in that hobby but there needs to be some pragmatism about what you can afford and what you do with your time.

 

The most skilled, and maybe happiest, modellers are the ones not reliant on consumerism but on their own skills and access to materials. So, who are the ones that are crying loudest? Frankly I think it’s the people who just think that every thing they want should be cheaper so they can buy more of it. I like driving but would I go onto a Bentley owners’ forum and moan that I can’t afford their new model? No, I just accept it and be happy with what I’ve got, ta.

 

These Jeremiahs drown everything else out with their doomposting; they don’t really, actually care about the future of the hobby – just that they can’t have what they want. Having given the world the benefit of their wisdom they move on to look for their next opportunity to repeat their credo like monkeys flinging turds at the crowd at the zoo for a laugh. No; that’s not fair, at least the monkey incident is funny if you weren’t the one who copped it.

 

I believe that these things are a blip and that the hobby will continue to reshape itself; it’s not about light at the end of the tunnel, it’s a case of enjoying the view on whatever journey you can afford to take.

 

The rail express article footnote says it all!

 

quote.... aka cut and paste!

 

About the Author

Alex Bestwick is a Digital Content Editor with a degree in Publishing and Creative Writing from York St John. When he’s not at work, he is usually reading, watching horror movies, or exploring the countryside. ABestwick@mortons.co.uk

end quote.

 

what no trains.... no model railways... no interest in transport but a degree in fictional writing!

 

that's it I'm not wasting my time standing in WHSmith reading that mag any more!!!!😁

[letterspider]

Andy, thank you for starting this topic. Initially I found I was going to write a very long answer but then I realised the better answer to your question is who is going to save our hobby?

Well okay Andy yourself and your team's incredible efforts to maintain RMWeb for a start. In fact I am going to look at subscribing because I think RMWeb is good value content I have enjoyed and taken for granted for a while AND it must have saved me a lot of time trouble and money over the years from buying duff models. 

Hattons gone, Warley gone, RMWeb next...? Hopefully not.

 

 

[Darius43]

- Model railways featured in articles in two national newspapers.

- Continuing TV programmes about model railways.

- Accursacale/IRM, Cavalex, Revolution, Rapido.

- EFE rail brings out Southern Boosters.

 

Decline?  I don’t think so.

 

My take on Hattons and Warley is that of people getting older and wanting to take things easy - get rid of all the heavy demands and stress from their lives.  As an older person who has just (semi) retired and closed his own company, I can empathise with that.

 

Don’t worry, build a model.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[97406]

I’m grateful to have sampled the delights of 2 Warley shows, the first one after the pandemic was especially good. There are plenty of other large shows to fill the void with the Doncaster Festival of Model Railways perhaps being my favourite of the large shows and Ally Pally being one of the closest in terms of manufacturer attendance. Similarly I have shopped at Hattons a lot and I mourn their passing but then there’s still Rails, Kernow and a whole host of other retailers out there. The sheer number of new models in the pipeline paints a rosy picture of the hobby too.

 

I’ll wager there is a significant number of people like me, still a few years off retirement that will suddenly have a lot more spare time to indulge in the hobby in the not-too-distant future. In my case it will involve breaking out of the confines of depot modelling and installing some running lines and some sort of industrial operation which will involve a whole raft of modelling and fresh purchases. Working is such an inconvenience when it comes to modelling at the end of the day! 😃

[arran]

12 hours ago, PMP said:

I’ve not seen any indication that the numbers had significantly diminished. They have mentioned the practicality of running the show, in its existing format. Presumably if they downsize and use their local village hall with ten layouts and five traders, they can still call it the National show and they’ll have passed your responsibility litmus test.

I Said   IF 

 

And define significant ?

[NBL]

5 minutes ago, arran said:

I Said   IF 

 

And define significant ?

Nice to see you are as arrogant on here as you in real life

 

[41516]

Looks like there will be a segment on BBC Breakfast this morning, so we can see what the spin (or not) is from them.

[41516]

51 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Looks like there will be a segment on BBC Breakfast this morning, so we can see what the spin (or not) is from them.

 

 On now (07:53), live from the Market Deeping club

Edited January 16 by 41516

[PaulRhB]

A friend once summed it up nicely for me, The media are just interested in creating entertainment and the public have a morbid fascination with ‘disaster’.

See all the photos of accidents in the 1800’s with huge crowds in the photos, YouTube with crashes and fails videos. None of it’s new and we are bombarded with it where tv reality shows and the news compete for the most dramatic angle as ‘clickbait’.
Frankly I stopped watching tv news after being stuck just down the road from one of the 2007 London attacks and being disgusted by how they made it so paranoid in the aftermath. We had armed Police at work, and using the Signalbox as a secure rest room too, but it was in reality calm and relaxed to reassure the public. The Salisbury poisonings were similar hype media fest when in reality for locals it meant little change apart from news crews asking you for inane comments for a week if you ventured near the shops. Equally tourists then turned up looking for the location of the bench, they’d removed sensibly, for a few years?!? More morbid fascination than caring. 
These stories may make the news but are forgotten twenty seconds later when the next celebrity story grabs even more of the morbid attention. 
As others have said modelshops I've personally considered as more important sources than Hattons have gone and still I’ve found other sources. 35 years ago I discovered Victors and it was my Mecca for US models, then I discovered LSWR Models who did mail order and shows. Both those are no longer trading but I still model US trains easily enough. I’m sad to see Hattons go, mainly for the staff having to find jobs at a difficult time, but their spats with the ‘big two’ meant I’d moved to other shops for stuff my local couldn’t get back in 2021. I’d used Hattons for nearly 40 years as it was reasonably local to grandparents but had a couple of irritating instances with returns in the lead up to them losing tier 1 status with Hornby and the lack of notification of those orders being cancelled and the subsequent response were the final straw and I didn’t return as a loyal customer. Other shops noted an upturn at that time as people transferred orders back then and I suspect many others stayed with those new accounts. Sad but in such a business the thing that stands out is customer service and there are a lot doing it very well, several active on here too. 
So I think there’s always someone there to pick up the slack whether in retail or exhibitions. I remember reading Warley swamped other local shows but yet they all seem to be going still. Warley was still viable and if they’d gone after the money and had limited employees it probably would still be going but that wasn’t their aim and it felt a little more special to me because I knew it was just a bigger version of our club show. I’ll miss the opportunities to meet up and the people who ran it far more than its impact on my modelling. Narrow Gauge South West ended in 2017 and I miss that for similar reasons, I made comment online that the 009 village area of last years Warley show felt a lot like the fun of NGSW and several agreed. What a contrast in shows in scale and organisation but at the heart of it they were both fun and I’ll remember that fondly far longer than the media hyperbole about the death of the hobby. 
I grew up with my hobby being considered a bit odd and to be honest in the last twenty years it’s seemed to me to become more accepted. There’s still idiots who’s imaginative response to finding out is to shout choo choo but more now are interested and enjoy seeing models up close. So the hobby may be shrinking from a heyday of the 50’s and 60’s but it had grown from something small for 30-40 years already and there’s now a huge crossover in paints and scenic materials to wargaming and military modelling. I also use a lot of bits from rc modelling in loco and layout construction so there’s an increasing crossover with other modelling. 
Contrary to the media rubbish I attended the Weston SM show on Sunday, it was packed. Operating a layout that is about as good as I can imagine I was chatting with families, got twin thumbs up from a youngster sat on Dad’s shoulders who didn’t want dad to see another layout yet and watched several who could just get their nose above baseboard height wait with delight for the crossing gates to close and the signal to come off. We chatted to them and made sure to let them know when a train was coming, they didn’t want crashes they were perfectly happy just enjoying the models 😁 

I’ll pop in at my local modelshop on the way to work which has grown thanks to the support of appreciative modellers over the last ten years. I don’t ‘need’ anything but it’s a pleasant place to pop in for a chat and sometimes the owner, who’s expertise is military modelling, will ask you for info or involve you in helping out another customer. He is delighted to promote our local shows too.

So hobby in trouble? Nah if anything too much choice of great models and all the bits you need to build a layout for them! 

Edited January 16 by PaulRhB

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Have just watched the BBC Breakfast piece on  iPlayer - very positive. I'm not sure how long a programme like BBC Breakfast is available on iPlayer, but certainly for the next hour or so - go take a look.