Jol Wilkinson Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Just now, bradfordbuffer said: Must be difficult to do any modeling yourself whist looking down your nose judging others! Everyone is entitled to do what they seem fit to do in the hobby it's all toy trains at the end of the day The rtr loco you buy at shops was a box of kit parts back in China or Wales! Just some one with skill and dexterity mad it for you My reference to modelling was a personal reflection on previous posts about what others consider modelling, quoting a dictionary definition of modelling. For me modelling means making things. Buying models that someone else has made isn't the same as model making but if it's what you want to do then that's okay with me. As for doing any modelling, I do get some done. 4 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 24 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said: Must be difficult to do any modeling yourself whist looking down your nose judging others! Everyone is entitled to do what they seem fit to do in the hobby it's all toy trains at the end of the day The rtr loco you buy at shops was a box of kit parts back in China or Wales! Just some one with skill and dexterity mad it for you Never thought of it like that ! ” I have outsourced my loco construction to shenzen “. Good decision . ” I have outsourced my loco construction to Romania “ - BR , bad decision ;) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 On 27/02/2024 at 09:00, Jol Wilkinson said: If you look up the definition of modelling. one answer is "the activity of making three-dimensional models". So the purchase and use of RTR/RTP items isn't "modelling". The creation of a layout or diorama. which may enable those purchases to be used however, could be seen as modelling. It depends on how much effort you want to put in. Hell's Teeth, I thought I could be patronising but this is Carlsberg level. We have just managed to change public opinion on the "playing with toy trains" snottiness we used to get, thanks in no small measure by celebrity modellers "coming out" without the need for blue on blue gunfire from within our ranks. Let's get one thing straight. We play with toy trains. Adult, very expensive toy trains but toy trains none the less. There is nothing wrong with that. After all, it is less bizarre than choosing to spend hundreds of pounds for a season ticket to sit in a draughty, unheated shed watching 22 multi-millionaires kick a bag of wind from one end of a lawn to another, whilst consuming reclaimed meat products of dubious origin and with the added thrill of possibly being beaten up by the other tribe. Or spending hundreds of pounds destroying your liver with alcohol only for you to wake up the next morning with no memories of the night before, thereby wasting the the whole evening's expenditure and with the potential long term prospect of needing dialysis at some time. Playing trains by comparison is positively sane. I also take offence at the judgement that you need to "put some effort in" to justify the label "modeller". I enjoy making scenery far more than hand knitting my own trains, but even then I'll use a combination of ready to plant, kit, and home designed and 3d printed items to achieve the effect I want. However, those who exhibit collections of Triang models creating layouts typical of what used to be shown in the old "Track Plan" books with contemporary items shouldn't be sneered at, and given they are often knee deep in visitors at exhibitions, clearly the modelling fraternity share their passion and nostalgia. It's about time we started to support each other and stopped being so judgemental and snotty about what is after all a hobby, a pastime and not international diplomacy or politics. And yes, I know I can sometimes be dismissive about steam enthusiasts but when I use the term "kettleistas" I do so in response to just the kind of dismissive, holier-than-thou attitudes I've just described safe in the knowledge that I am planning a steam layout as well as one for trains with coathangers so am a kettleista myself, but don't intend to elevate my interest and passion to religious zealotry. Life is too short for that. 2 10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradfordbuffer Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 6 minutes ago, wombatofludham said: Hell's Teeth, I thought I could be patronising but this is Carlsberg level. That's a life lesson.....some one somewhere is always one level above you....in all walks of life 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, wombatofludham said: Hell's Teeth, I thought I could be patronising but this is Carlsberg level. We have just managed to change public opinion on the "playing with toy trains" snottiness we used to get, thanks in no small measure by celebrity modellers "coming out" without the need for blue on blue gunfire from within our ranks. Let's get one thing straight. We play with toy trains. Adult, very expensive toy trains but toy trains none the less. There is nothing wrong with that. After all, it is less bizarre than choosing to spend hundreds of pounds for a season ticket to sit in a draughty, unheated shed watching 22 multi-millionaires kick a bag of wind from one end of a lawn to another, whilst consuming reclaimed meat products of dubious origin and with the added thrill of possibly being beaten up by the other tribe. Or spending hundreds of pounds destroying your liver with alcohol only for you to wake up the next morning with no memories of the night before, thereby wasting the the whole evening's expenditure and with the potential long term prospect of needing dialysis at some time. Playing trains by comparison is positively sane. I also take offence at the judgement that you need to "put some effort in" to justify the label "modeller". I enjoy making scenery far more than hand knitting my own trains, but even then I'll use a combination of ready to plant, kit, and home designed and 3d printed items to achieve the effect I want. However, those who exhibit collections of Triang models creating layouts typical of what used to be shown in the old "Track Plan" books with contemporary items shouldn't be sneered at, and given they are often knee deep in visitors at exhibitions, clearly the modelling fraternity share their passion and nostalgia. It's about time we started to support each other and stopped being so judgemental and snotty about what is after all a hobby, a pastime and not international diplomacy or politics. And yes, I know I can sometimes be dismissive about steam enthusiasts but when I use the term "kettleistas" I do so in response to just the kind of dismissive, holier-than-thou attitudes I've just described safe in the knowledge that I am planning a steam layout as well as one for trains with coathangers so am a kettleista myself, but don't intend to elevate my interest and passion to religious zealotry. Life is too short for that. I get your point , but you’ve been as patronising about other interests - IE football and drinking . To validate your opinion you’d have to be as accepting of other people’s choices ( no I don’t follow football , but a truckload of people do , that’s up to them …one man’s meat is another man’s something else ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 No I wasn't, I was explaining that we've had enough comments sneering about "playing trains" from people who think watching football or getting drunk is normal, despite both those activities being somewhat odd and creating costs to society in terms of extra policing and health costs which model railways do not. I've had rabid, season ticket holding, footy fans sneer at me for being into model railways in the past and the arguments I've used here were thrown back at them with some force, so fighting external sneering with some acidic responses was not only justified but also achieved the objective. If they want "bants" they chose the wrong person, it's a form of bullying so being patronising back to them is frankly the lesser of two evils The real point is the fact we can do without snotty attitudes from within the hobby when we all know there is still enough external commentary on the hobby from people who think it appropriate to diss our hobby. I couldn't care less if they choose to waste their money on football or getting liver sclerosis so long as they keep out of my face. What I find more difficult to accept is sniping from within the hobby. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 38 minutes ago, wombatofludham said: No I wasn't, I was explaining that we've had enough comments sneering about "playing trains" from people who think watching football or getting drunk is normal, despite both those activities being somewhat odd and creating costs to society in terms of extra policing and health costs which model railways do not. I've had rabid, season ticket holding, footy fans sneer at me for being into model railways in the past and the arguments I've used here were thrown back at them with some force, so fighting external sneering with some acidic responses was not only justified but also achieved the objective. If they want "bants" they chose the wrong person, it's a form of bullying so being patronising back to them is frankly the lesser of two evils The real point is the fact we can do without snotty attitudes from within the hobby when we all know there is still enough external commentary on the hobby from people who think it appropriate to diss our hobby. I couldn't care less if they choose to waste their money on football or getting liver sclerosis so long as they keep out of my face. What I find more difficult to accept is sniping from within the hobby. Perhaps it is referring to playing with toy trains (as you said in your earlier post) that has caused the hobby to be looked on by some other sectors of society. Shouldn't we be promoting railway modelling as a creative, worthwhile activity rather than disparaging or lessening it in the eyes of the general public or media? Edited March 2 by Jol Wilkinson Additional text 2 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradfordbuffer Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 3 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said: Perhaps it is referring to playing with toy trains (as you said in your earlier post) that has caused the hobby to be looked on by some other sectors of society. Shouldn't we be promoting railway modelling as a creative, worthwhile activity rather than disparaging or lessening it? It's all make beleave....aka playing with trains until you can sit on it and be transported from a to b on it then it's a actual train doing train type things! When playing with model trains it all toy trains just the level of fidelity changes....! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 35 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said: Perhaps it is referring to playing with toy trains (as you said in your earlier post) that has caused the hobby to be looked on by some other sectors of society. Shouldn't we be promoting railway modelling as a creative, worthwhile activity rather than disparaging or lessening it in the eyes of the general public or media? They’ll always be a section of society that finds grown men playing with “ toy “ trains amusing . You won’t fix that regardless 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted March 2 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 2 3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said: As for doing any modelling, I do get some done. Impressive. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 3 hours ago, wombatofludham said: No I wasn't, I was explaining that we've had enough comments sneering about "playing trains" from people who think watching football or getting drunk is normal, despite both those activities being somewhat odd and creating costs to society in terms of extra policing and health costs which model railways do not. I've had rabid, season ticket holding, footy fans sneer at me for being into model railways in the past and the arguments I've used here were thrown back at them with some force, so fighting external sneering with some acidic responses was not only justified but also achieved the objective. If they want "bants" they chose the wrong person, it's a form of bullying so being patronising back to them is frankly the lesser of two evils The real point is the fact we can do without snotty attitudes from within the hobby when we all know there is still enough external commentary on the hobby from people who think it appropriate to diss our hobby. I couldn't care less if they choose to waste their money on football or getting liver sclerosis so long as they keep out of my face. What I find more difficult to accept is sniping from within the hobby. The problem is what % of the population is either into drinking and/ or football ? Way way more than model trains….that makes us the odd one …the odd one out . Thats just life . I’m tolerant of other interests , as long as they repay the courtesy Edited March 2 by rob D2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 5 minutes ago, rob D2 said: The problem is what % of the population is either into drinking and/ or football ? Way way more than model trains….that makes us the odd one …the odd one out . Thats just life . Indeed, only watched football as it was a second topic to talk to my father about after trains. I’m not a good drinker and really don’t like it. Both my grown up children like football and drink, it looks a good way to make friends but I would be like Roy at a match, at least Moss learnt to mask well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernviscount Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 7 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said: Perhaps it is referring to playing with toy trains (as you said in your earlier post) that has caused the hobby to be looked on by some other sectors of society. Shouldn't we be promoting railway modelling as a creative, worthwhile activity rather than disparaging or lessening it in the eyes of the general public or media? Agreed. I don't know the motivation behind why some minimise model railways as playing with toys. I have every sympathy if it is in some way related to how they have been treated for loving trains and honouring that love through making models of them. Sometimes we want to denigrate ourselves before others have the chance to. I would hope that in time we find the courage to stand up for our hobby. Personally, the minimising of it is at best uninspiring. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3 It doesn't matter what hobby I have looked at, most ill feeling and judgemental opinion is within that hobby rather than from outside directed at the hobby. That's true for photography/cameras and the cat fights around micro four thirds vs. APS-C vs. full frame sensors among other things (no true photographer uses a zoom lens etc etc). It reaches borderline bonkers levels in hi-fi. My wife and daughter are into sewing and listening to them talk about sewing machines it is clear there's a good element of it there too. Many people may pull our legs about playing with toys and such like but the truth is few ever think about our hobby, it passes them by and if they do offer a jibe it is generally off the cuff and mostly in good humour (even if modellers might object and find it offensive). This is the same for how most people think about most hobbies, and before getting too critical consider if you have ever made a similar type of comment about the interests of others. I have never been bothered by it and personally I have no issue with them being referred to as toys, the old adage about the difference between men and boys being the price of their toys has some truth to it. I find much more positive comments, even though most are uninterested in models, I find most find something fascinating with them when they are exposed to models. I know I use this example a lot, but I work in an industry where a normal part of office furniture is large (extremely expensive) builders models of ships, the models generally get the interest of visitors and receive positive comments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3 One of the things I have always found amusing is that some of the finest rolling stock modellers in the world are the men and women who work in Asian factories which make brass models. Those models really are factory assembled and finished brass kits and then painted and decalled (if factory painted) and the factory workers are extremely skilled at doing it. Manufacturers like Ajin and Samhongsa made the brass models sold by most of the American and European brass model companies (such as Overland, Challenger, PFM, Lemaco, Fulgurex, NMJ Superline etc) and some of the Japanese brass outfits, working to extraordinary high standards yet I suspect most of those building and painting the models had little or no interest in trains or models. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, westernviscount said: Agreed. I don't know the motivation behind why some minimise model railways as playing with toys. Tax avoidance. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 15 hours ago, bradfordbuffer said: It's all make beleave....aka playing with trains until you can sit on it and be transported from a to b on it then it's a actual train doing train type things! When playing with model trains it all toy trains just the level of fidelity changes....! You can play with toys if you wish, more power to you. But I build models and my family and friends all appreciate the effort that goes in to what I do. None of them are disparaging or negative at all. It is funny that people complain about being portrayed in a negative manner when you and several others in this thread are the worst offenders. Craig W 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fezza Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 I don't see why you can't play with toy trains and be a serious modeller. Iain Rice was one of the greatest modellers and "serious" modelling writers we have ever seen. But he loved his Hornby Dublo. Personally I don't care what people think of my modelling/playing with toy trains. I've got to the age where I don't give a .... Just enjoy your hobby however you do it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westernviscount Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 7 hours ago, jjb1970 said: It doesn't matter what hobby I have looked at, most ill feeling and judgemental opinion is within that hobby rather than from outside directed at the hobby. This makes a lot of sense. I personally experience no negativity about my hobby from people who matter to me and most 'outsiders' are impressed by the skills involved in the hobby. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) When I explained to a teacher at school that my hobby (at the time) was stamp collecting, he looked down his nose and said: “Well if you must, you must; but remember: Philately will get you nowhere”. ALL hobbies and interests attract sneering comments by people who simply don’t ‘get it’. Our own hobby is, or should be, a broad church. If some of us prefer to wear a hair shirt while doing it, good luck to them if they enjoy it and get a lot out of it. Personally, although I do make and modify some things, I don’t have enough years left to do it all the hard way. Besides, “real” hardcore railway modelling without the use of bought-in components already fit for use has scarcely - if at all - been practiced since the early days of John Ahern and Peter Denny. Reading the letter’s books and realising what he could do with an empty cat food tin, a yard of wire and a piercing saw was impressive beyond belief; but he and his like were exceptional and no-one I’m aware of today goes to such lengths, or needs to. The times also allowed them to have simpler lives with fewer distractions, and probably (if married) wives who expected and got little by way of support in the home and with children/grandchildren. So a little less virtue-signalling and a little more realism about the realities of modern life please. Edited March 3 by Willie Whizz 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PMP Posted March 3 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 3 On 23/02/2024 at 20:31, wombatofludham said: Nobody is extrapolating anything and I've seen some very nice layouts with decent weathering live and on video. All the videos I've watched show whole layouts and all the exhibits at the show, not just "edited highlights". You extrapolated. You provided a text book example of extrapolation commenting on the lack of weathered buildings and pristine track. If you don't like comments regarding you extrapolating something, don't extrapolate. You'll no doubt have seen the popular subsequent replies from @2ManySpams and @NHY 581 rebutting your perception that modellers don't weather their buildings or their ballast. At the Doncaster show recently I can think of only one layout that might have met those criteria. In my experience I'd agree with Rob that unweathered buildings or pristine ballast are very much the exception at the shows I've been to, or seen video of. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to provide some links to those videos? If you want to see examples where the norm is weathered buildings and track, then visit shows or look at videos from Larkrail, Wells, and Manchester as those that immediately spring to mind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 11 hours ago, westernviscount said: Agreed. I don't know the motivation behind why some minimise model railways as playing with toys. I have every sympathy if it is in some way related to how they have been treated for loving trains and honouring that love through making models of them. Sometimes we want to denigrate ourselves before others have the chance to. I would hope that in time we find the courage to stand up for our hobby. Personally, the minimising of it is at best uninspiring. I think it’s called not taking yourself too seriously. The hobby grows out of trainsets - trainsets like I got when I was 5 .. then grew out of it . The public perception often is of Peter Pan individuals who never grew up - I’m not in the business of educating them , I’m confident enough to persue my own interests oblivious to their opinions … let’s face it , a large percentage of the population find thinking difficult . However , we are in danger of over analysing a pastime that we enjoy . So just enjoy it in whatever version it takes - whether you are running a Lego train set round the dining room table or waist deep in white metal parts to make a narrow gauge engine from Outer Mongolia in P4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BachelorBoy Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 3 minutes ago, rob D2 said: However , we are in danger of over analysing a pastime that we enjoy . So just enjoy it in whatever version it takes - whether you are running a Lego train set round the dining room table or waist deep in white metal parts to make a narrow gauge engine from Outer Mongolia in P4 I think you'll find that Mongolia, the country sometimes referred to as Outer Mongolia, has only ever had railways using Russian broad gauge. :-) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 13 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said: I think you'll find that Mongolia, the country sometimes referred to as Outer Mongolia, has only ever had railways using Russian broad gauge. :-) Rivet counter ;) Edited March 3 by rob D2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted March 3 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3 Never mind the perils of labelling and people talking cobblers on the Internet, (the latter something I excel in), the thing that keeps me awake at night is the horror of railway modellers making limp jokes..... Away from the keyboard now, I'm off to wreck the garden to create my own personal HS2 - more cobblers later I expect.... Watch out you flowers! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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