KeithMacdonald Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Pigeons crept into the Kernow GWR steam rail motor, as a suggestion for platform accessories ... ... but I thought it was only polite to shoo them out and start a seperate topic. I'd suggested there was an era when baskets of racing pigeon were regular livestock/freight on trains. @phil gollin mentioned Quote There is a short video of a Stanier 8F pulling south out of East Croydon with 21 associated full brakes of all different types - no proof, but I have always ASSUMED this was a pigeon racing special going down to the South Coast for a long distance race. @Colin_McLeod Quote Pigeon trafic was very popular at Lisburn station in UTA days. I thought no more of it until an older cousin mentioned her dad (my uncle). Quote Dad was too old to be called up at the beginning of WW2 but later he volunteered for the Royal Corps of Signals so that he could work with the pigeons and the National Pigeon Service. He had told us that he was at one time at Gosmore near Hitchin and I have found a mention of "Soldiers were in Priory Park looking after 2 or 3 pigeon lofts or caravans where they kept the pigeons" It must have been in the family, I was reminded that my own dad (pre-WW2) used to take baskets of pigeons to Harringay Station in North London, to be put on a train to somewhere. About the NPS... Quote The National Pigeon Service (NPS) was a volunteer civilian organization formed in Britain in 1938 as result of representations made to the Committee of Imperial Defence and the British Government by Major W. H. Osman. During 1939-45 over 200,000 young pigeons were given to the services by the British pigeon breeders of the NPS. The birds were used by the Royal Air Force and the Army and Intelligence Services, Special Section of the Army Pigeon Service (which was formed in World War I by Lt. Col. A.H.Osman). During three and a half years of World War II, 16,554 war pigeons were parachuted onto the continent. One of these was Commando, a red chequer cock bird that became a recipient of the Dickin Medal. Many other NPS pigeons also received the Dickin Medal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Pigeon_Service From their home loft, baskets of pigeons were despatched by rail to air bases. Quote The range of a homing pigeon was around 300 miles so a bird whose loft was in the East of England could be released in parts of France, Netherlands, Belgium, the North Sea and the English Channel. At this distance the birds had a success rate of over 86% and in some cases flew further providing their crews with a chance of being rescued and many aircrew would, thanks to these brave birds. https://www.classicwarbirds.co.uk/articles/pigeons-at-war-the-raf-and-the-national-pigeon-service.php 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 15 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said: I'd suggested there was an era when baskets of racing pigeon were regular livestock/freight on trains. Racing pigeons were always passenger rated traffic, with a quick transit required, hence the assorted full brakes, although other passenger vans were used as well. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Pigeon traffic? Definitely all in passenger rated vans as these things were worth a lot of money. https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/128-pigeon-traffic-historical Still waiting for the book though! Jason 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 27 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 27 And of course considerable amounts of racing/homing pigeon traffic passed on ordinary passenger trains as that was the easiest way of getting birds some distance from home (enter the date/time of release on the label attached to the basket before returning the basket to the sending station) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: And of course considerable amounts of racing/homing pigeon traffic passed on ordinary passenger trains as that was the easiest way of getting birds some distance from home (enter the date/time of release on the label attached to the basket before returning the basket to the sending station) Would there have been much non-club/competititon traffic? Individuals testing their bird from varying distances/directions? Presumably the charge was calculated on mileage, at a special rate rather than ordinary parcels, given the extra handling needed for release etc. So what stations would the basket label show? From A to A via B? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Covkid Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Very important traffic in the Black Country. I straight away recall an image of a class 128 Diesel parcels unit hauling a maroon Mk1 BG on a pigeon special My father in law bred champion racing pigeons, before I married his daughter, and I remember him telling me about his widowhood breeding method many years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 28 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28 I can recall the birds being released under the supervision of the Stationmaster, complete with stopwatch and notepad, at Cardiff (General) in the early 60s, from the ‘fish dock’ loading platforms. IIRC there was some sort of string cord method of opening all the baskets simultaneously; it was a fairly spectacular sight! I can’t recall seeing passenger-carrying stock with the specials, but have seen photos of this at Selby station. The wicker baskets, stacks of which were a feature on the ends of most pre-Beeching platforms, are still in use apparently unchanged; I regularly see them being loaded on to or unloaded from road vans at Roath Conservative Club, other end of my road. I have a few lofts scattered around Cwmdimbath, for the Ogmore Forest PFA (completely ficticious, AFAIK at least) and will occasionally have a passenger rated van added to one of my service trains or, more occasionally, run a special. TTBOMK pigeons needed steam heating at the appropriate times, and there were presumably water/feeding/cleaning stops on longer journeys. NPCCS stock with fold-down shelves was used for this traffic, as it was for flowers and broccili. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 28 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 28 On 27/01/2024 at 19:05, Michael Hodgson said: Would there have been much non-club/competititon traffic? Individuals testing their bird from varying distances/directions? Presumably the charge was calculated on mileage, at a special rate rather than ordinary parcels, given the extra handling needed for release etc. So what stations would the basket label show? From A to A via B? I'm fairly sure that there were two rates - one for individual consigners and another for a member of some sort of pigeon fanciers or racing pigeon association. The latter I'm fairly sure was a sort of agreed flat rate but still included a mileage element while the former would still have been a pure mileage rate into the early '60s and probably never changed from that. Virtually all the parcels traffic mileage scales had been abolished by 1966/67 and I can't remember any mileage rates being in use when i was working in Slough Parcels in 1967 - everything seemed to be zonal based rates by then (not that we ever had any originating, or even received, pigeon traffic in my time there). Lots of the smaller livestock traffic was shed in the '60s. There used to be a considerable traffic in Day Old chicks which were sent in large cardboard boxes but that Had, or seemed to have, ceased by 1966/7. I know the WR were still accepting coffins (loaded) in 1965 from Paddington but by then I'm pretty sure they were only accepted for transit to Ireland. They were quite expensive as they were sole use of a large bogie van, Customs Declaration Forms, various medical certificates (and a death certificate of course). I would imagine Euston might also have still been accepting them at that time. Most Irish folk arriving in London invariably arrived at either Paddington or Euston hence when they had someone who wanted to go back to be buried in Ireland those were the stations they went to. And of course both stations were one of the first places where those who didn't already have a job to go to applied for one - lots of Irish names on the paybill at Paddington and quite a few still on the railway in that area 20 years later. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 On 28/01/2024 at 04:33, The Johnster said: I can recall the birds being released under the supervision of the Stationmaster, complete with stopwatch and notepad, at Cardiff (General) in the early 60s, from the ‘fish dock’ loading platforms. IIRC there was some sort of string cord method of opening all the baskets simultaneously; it was a fairly spectacular sight! I can’t recall seeing passenger-carrying stock with the specials, but have seen photos of this at Selby station. The wicker baskets, stacks of which were a feature on the ends of most pre-Beeching platforms, are still in use apparently unchanged; I regularly see them being loaded on to or unloaded from road vans at Roath Conservative Club, other end of my road. I have a few lofts scattered around Cwmdimbath, for the Ogmore Forest PFA (completely ficticious, AFAIK at least) and will occasionally have a passenger rated van added to one of my service trains or, more occasionally, run a special. TTBOMK pigeons needed steam heating at the appropriate times, and there were presumably water/feeding/cleaning stops on longer journeys. NPCCS stock with fold-down shelves was used for this traffic, as it was for flowers and broccili. As a small child ( early 60s) I was on the platform at Normanton in time to see a “ release”. Impressive. If anyone has any more information regarding the Selby releases our “ boss” will probably have me building pigeon stock before commissioning 500 3D printed birds! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 Coo! That would of course have to be 500 individual birds in individual poses... I have a Chivers BY Pigeon Van, and a fine kit it is, too. TTBOMK only the LNER and presumably it's pre-grouping constituents went in for these, and I'm not sure what specific feature of them made them specifically Pigeon Vans. They were used as general NPCCS, and general NPCCS with drop-down shelves were used to convey pigeons. Just for the fun of it, I made my kit up with a fully-detailed interior, which was pretty much pointless as it can't be seen, but there are two levels of drop-down shelves, which may be the difference... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, The Johnster said: Coo! That would of course have to be 500 individual birds in individual poses... Not to mention all the different colours... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnofwessex Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said: Not to mention all the different colours... Q more livery froth 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 49 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Coo! Didn't know you did pigeon impersonations Johnster 😄 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 (edited) 7 hours ago, doilum said: As a small child ( early 60s) I was on the platform at Normanton in time to see a “ release”. Impressive. If anyone has any more information regarding the Selby releases our “ boss” will probably have me building pigeon stock before commissioning 500 3D printed birds! https://www.scale3d.co.uk/products/mma001-1-76-oo-gauge-pigeons-x-10 They actually have 20 in the pack x 25 = £50. Perhaps you need to print your own! No connection - just a happy customer. Edited January 29 by phil_sutters 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 A few will go a long way, visually. These are from a Preiser set. Double that and a fair impression of a release could be created, I think. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) 28 minutes ago, phil_sutters said: https://www.scale3d.co.uk/products/mma001-1-76-oo-gauge-pigeons-x-10 They actually have 20 in the pack x 25 = £50. Perhaps you need to print your own! No connection - just a happy customer. Selby is 7mm so they would be expected to fly! my recollection is rather more scary. The instant release of perhaps a thousand birds was worthy of a Hitchcock movie. Edited January 29 by doilum 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted January 29 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 29 Each bird has it's own pattern of markings and colouring, which is as individual as a fingerprint. The markings are absolutely symmetrical as well; even common feral pigeons are interesting in their way... 38 minutes ago, doilum said: The instant release of perhaps a thousand birds was worthy of a Hitchcock movie. It is certainly impressive, and for the first few seconds they are almost a solid mass of birdage. Then they rise, get their bearings by whatever means they use to do that, and they're away. Within half a minute all is quiet and the sky is empty again. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 29 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 29 5 minutes ago, The Johnster said: Then they rise, get their bearings by whatever means they use to do that Like everybody else they use Sat Navs, I assume..............😉 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted January 30 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30 4 hours ago, doilum said: Selby is 7mm so they would be expected to fly! my recollection is rather more scary. The instant release of perhaps a thousand birds was worthy of a Hitchcock movie. The 7mm ones are £2.99 for 20. I remember seeing some, real ones, being released - at Templecombe, I think, back in the '60s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 10 hours ago, The Johnster said: Coo! That would of course have to be 500 individual birds in individual poses... I have a Chivers BY Pigeon Van, and a fine kit it is, too. TTBOMK only the LNER and presumably it's pre-grouping constituents went in for these, and I'm not sure what specific feature of them made them specifically Pigeon Vans. They were used as general NPCCS, and general NPCCS with drop-down shelves were used to convey pigeons. Just for the fun of it, I made my kit up with a fully-detailed interior, which was pretty much pointless as it can't be seen, but there are two levels of drop-down shelves, which may be the difference... With the LNER vans it was the drop-down racks which designated them as being pigeon vans.. As well as the 4-wheel BY, they also had bogie BG pigeon vans. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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