I like/dislike foreign layouts - discuss

[Bernard Lamb]

I quite like the idea of a Dutch layout. Set around 1945 with Austerities hauling rakes of coaches from various UK companies. That would cause a problem with those who don't like foreign layouts. Through in an international mix of freight stock, including some of US origin and we satisfy or upset just about everybody.

Bernard

[Erichill16]

53 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

After a trip to Holland in the late '90s, I've always had a pipe dream of a Dutch layout, something like a Minories terminus to show off that blue & yellow livery on their EMUs, and the 1600/1700 electrics, which ironically I don't like in their native French colours.

I’m a bit further on, I’ve got a bit of stock and even half a dozen light signal. (N gauge)

Hopefully I’ll be able to get away with traditional baseboards rather than open frame one.😉

[jjb1970]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was pointing out the viewpoint of the majority of exhibition goers though, and getting the thread back on the subject, rather than my personal view.

 

You just need to look at comments such as GWR engines all looking the same by those who need an appointment at Specsavers to realise that many don't even have an interest in "other" railways in their own country. And that's pretty tame compared to some of the views about "kettles", "boxes on wheels" and "smelly diesels"....

 

 

Jason

 

Model railway enthusiasm is like most human traits - a spectrum. That spectrum is multi-dimensional, but one of those dimensions goes from ultra parochialism (my railway, era, location, stuff anything else, zero interest) through to those who are interested in anything involving rails and with most of us somewhere in between. 

 

The parochial end can be quite vocal on message boards and in clubs but I really have no idea what percentage of the hobby they represent. In my experience most enthusiasts are primarily interested in their own bubble of interest but open minded to interesting or good modelling outside that bubble even if they're not interested in the prototype and wouldn't go out of their way to see other subjects.

 

[long island jack]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I was pointing out the viewpoint of the majority of exhibition goers though, and getting the thread back on the subject, rather than my personal view.

 

You just need to look at comments such as GWR engines all looking the same by those who need an appointment at Specsavers to realise that many don't even have an interest in "other" railways in their own country. And that's pretty tame compared to some of the views about "kettles", "boxes on wheels" and "smelly diesels"....

 

 

Jason

Sadly there are a lot of blinkered exhibition goers, myself being an American HO modeller, appreciate any type of modelling, scale, steam or diesel, good modelling is just good modelling what ever type.

Edited March 14 by long island jack

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I quite like the idea of a Dutch layout. Set around 1945 with Austerities hauling rakes of coaches from various UK companies. That would cause a problem with those who don't like foreign layouts. Through in an international mix of freight stock, including some of US origin and we satisfy or upset just about everybody.

Bernard

That does sound genuinely interesting. But will you also have to mix British and international scales (e.g. 00/H0), thus annoying other people as well?

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

That Honduras railway looks immensely modellable. It would lend itself to those Scale Model Scenery wrapping paper box size boards and you could just keep adding more boards onto the end as you built more shacks! Maybe doing it at Standard Gauge to use the Bachmann model although there appear to be every permutation of Wickham trolley HERE: https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace?type=product&q=wickham-trolley to mate to an appropriate chassis. £100 worth of Redutex sheets and some plasticard should be enough to get going.

I have a Bachmann Wickham trolley in yellow, stashed away for just such a project. Reading what you wrote I wonder whether I should actually try and do it as a more accurate model of the Honduran railway rather than a fictionalised version set in a fictional place. From my very basic research I understand that most railways in Honduras (of which this is one of only two remaining operational sections) were either 3’ or 3’ 6” gauge (I’m not sure which it is) and that this one was originally built to carry bananas and/or coconuts but is now a tourist line taking people to a sort of ecological park/nature reserve type place. I don’t think they’re actual Wickhams but probably a US-built equivalent (which Bachmann also makes in H0, if I decide I want a second train). I was going to rebody the motorised open wagon that comes with the Bachmann Wickham with a spare Wickham body, creating something like the 2-car train in the video (maybe with a bit of tarpaulin or enclosed sides to hide the motor). Apart from the track gauge the difficulty I had was finding a suitable scenic break, and the fact that I haven’t been to Honduras to see the prototype - is watching this and other videos enough?

 

The Scale Model Scenery boards sound ideal, I was actually thinking of going a bit smaller and using one of their cake box size boards, plus an added off-scene stick, which would fit into the picture frame display case I built to exhibit my 009 quarry layout from the original cake box challenge. But it could be extended later with further boards. Because the train is short and small it would be possible to create a good sense of space and ‘journey’ even within a short baseboard length. I sometimes wish we had a heritage/tourist railway a bit like this in the UK, with small Wickham trolleys and similar picking their way along - it surely wouldn’t be that expensive to operate and I’d definitely visit and/or volunteer. I did find a video of a similar rail trolley-based heritage line in the US but can’t remember the name of it now. The bridges on the Honduran line are also very interesting.

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I quite like the idea of a Dutch layout. Set around 1945 with Austerities hauling rakes of coaches from various UK companies. That would cause a problem with those who don't like foreign layouts. Through in an international mix of freight stock, including some of US origin and we satisfy or upset just about everybody.

Bernard

 

Sounds like the cliche of continental modelling which gets aired by the "foreign muck" brigade.

 

Seriously though, there are a lot of possibilities with Dutch railways, some that haven't even been explored by Dutch modellers themselves.

 

How many know for example that the first Dutch railways were broad gauge. The first lines were 2 metres centre rail to centre rail so 1950mm gauge. Regauging took place in the mid 19th century so it would be a bit of a niche affair.

 

Pre-grouping/nationalisation could be colourful, there was the Netherlands Central Railway with its yellow locomotives - later like the LBSCR in Britain changing to brown - or the North Brabant railway with 4-6-0s in blue.

 

There was an extensive local network with small tank engines and four wheel coaches. The preserved Hoorn-Medemblik line is an example of that. Post-war, for about five years, there was a local railway from Amsterdam's Haarlemmermeer station going south. Almost every tank engine type worked on it with Dutch and Swedish four wheel coaches. Freight traffic, primarily coal and chemicals, was hauled by outside framed 4-4-0s with large drivers. Later various diesel classes ranging from mainline types to four wheeled shunters worked the line, which survived for freight until 1986.

 

The main thing though was the Netherlands pioneer status in electrification, the consequence of which is the obsolescent 1500v DC power over nearly all the network (high speed line to Brussels and Paris excepted I think). Streamlined EMUs which were mirrored by streamlined DEMUs on the secondary lines. One interesting idea for a layout I saw many many years ago was based on Roodeschool up near Groningen. Passenger traffic was in the hands of single or twin DEMUs, which could of course be coupled together for rush hour trains, but there was also the gas industry requiring tank wagons and other stuff.

 

For freight traffic offering nearly every sort of wagon there is the small stand-alone network in Dutch Flanders. Run by the Dutch NS it connects with the Belgian railways. However the area served around Terneuzen has chemical works, oil refineries, sugar factories which get wagon loads of sugar beet and more. It's absolutely suitable for an American style wagon despatching layout. Unfortunately without mountains to hide fiddle yards in.

 

Or for a shelf layout there is the Distelweg freight terminus in Amsterdam. On the wrong side of the river Ij this collection of sidings - some running through the street - was served by a small ferry which could carry a four wheel shunter and a couple of wagons per trip. That expired in the late 80s or early 90s but there are local history websites that describe it.

 

And of course there was the temporary line that only ran during low tide that we modelled in the Great Model Railway Challenge.

 

So those Austerities are probably the least interesting subjects.

[Northmoor]

5 hours ago, newbryford said:

Just to show that it is prototypical to have locos of different companies and colours sitting side by side.

Flickr pic

 

 

Except that as it's not a depot, locos don't come and go very often so it would make a very "static" layout.

[009 micro modeller]

51 minutes ago, whart57 said:

For freight traffic offering nearly every sort of wagon there is the small stand-alone network in Dutch Flanders. Run by the Dutch NS it connects with the Belgian railways.

How much of this is there, and did it used to be a larger network? In some ways it’s odd that it’s run by NS as elsewhere in Europe there are similar isolated cross-border railways run by the country that the line starts in (I think I’ve seen some on a map on the borders of France, Germany and Luxembourg).

[ianmianmianm]

56 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

I have a Bachmann Wickham trolley in yellow, stashed away for just such a project. Reading what you wrote I wonder whether I should actually try and do it as a more accurate model of the Honduran railway rather than a fictionalised version set in a fictional place. From my very basic research I understand that most railways in Honduras (of which this is one of only two remaining operational sections) were either 3’ or 3’ 6” gauge (I’m not sure which it is) and that this one was originally built to carry bananas and/or coconuts but is now a tourist line taking people to a sort of ecological park/nature reserve type place. I don’t think they’re actual Wickhams but probably a US-built equivalent (which Bachmann also makes in H0, if I decide I want a second train). I was going to rebody the motorised open wagon that comes with the Bachmann Wickham with a spare Wickham body, creating something like the 2-car train in the video (maybe with a bit of tarpaulin or enclosed sides to hide the motor). Apart from the track gauge the difficulty I had was finding a suitable scenic break, and the fact that I haven’t been to Honduras to see the prototype - is watching this and other videos enough?

 

The Scale Model Scenery boards sound ideal, I was actually thinking of going a bit smaller and using one of their cake box size boards, plus an added off-scene stick, which would fit into the picture frame display case I built to exhibit my 009 quarry layout from the original cake box challenge. But it could be extended later with further boards. Because the train is short and small it would be possible to create a good sense of space and ‘journey’ even within a short baseboard length. I sometimes wish we had a heritage/tourist railway a bit like this in the UK, with small Wickham trolleys and similar picking their way along - it surely wouldn’t be that expensive to operate and I’d definitely visit and/or volunteer. I did find a video of a similar rail trolley-based heritage line in the US but can’t remember the name of it now. The bridges on the Honduran line are also very interesting.

 

I don't know how easy the chassis would be to do..... to be able to stay true to protoype to, if you were motorising it, but the narrow-gaugeness of it allows more space into the body I suppose.

 

I would myself veer toward the "inspired-by" option as otherwise it may be so frustrating to try and keep true, that you might never get it done.  Also going freelance allows for modelling of another train and you then get to come up with some crazy concoctions for that.

 

Scenic break wise, some trees might well do it - not just at the actual exit point, but also strategically in the foreground. Ive also previously used a cluster of trees but with a piece of black card placed within the cluster to hide all light or visibility coming through, which becomes completely unnoticeable.

 

And with there being so much 1:64 scale road vehicles available (if you went to Sn3 1/2) there might be a suitable road vehicle that could do the job, if you wanted to put it in an odd position then model the vehicle as broken down or burnt out perhaps??? This could be a good view blocker if repainted https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/386698101016?epid=26062464881&itmmeta=01HRZFX1WTTR803PNR2816HBHY&hash=item5a0900c118:g:C6sAAOSwjtlktXZv&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4FAsU7Ls7ftt3lXSNY3Dib7DVr7jSyUrSWQCtYyCrExAt%2FT7TZa70f39xn%2B1wMSG06avN3HlgCpDjY5DSBep0zVWqqXe0dmjp8YouPUSHy4Cw4qEW7rA5jdnrmrB4N8OU%2F25QX3G8TH5aQRzjQo4M3IJ1aYNvH8pY0MLmlQfF%2Fd8AWfxBUqdvofYv1u7tPlHa4l%2FawAOtzhzU%2Bc4eCuuU189i8XOTHyUhj5vQiAFJSNBbHs%2F3aDc7oISCadppOJytQYbrIehYMzgHx1qP2wxRqIbJ31PvC4CCV3BstJ4EU9m|tkp%3ABk9SR_Ke9O_HYw for example.

 

 

[newbryford]

32 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Except that as it's not a depot, locos don't come and go very often so it would make a very "static" layout.

I can assure you, it's not a static layout.....

[Free At Last]

2 hours ago, long island jack said:

Sadly there are a lot of blinkered exhibition goers, myself being an American HO modeller, appreciate any type of modelling, scale, steam or diesel, good modelling is just good modelling what ever type.

They are not blinkered, they will be looking for something more to their interest.
Not everyone is the same as you.

[PaulRhB]

36 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Except that as it's not a depot, locos don't come and go very often so it would make a very "static" layout.

Ah but this is the common assumption that all places / layouts of a country are the same 😉

Whats ironic is the same people usually complain about the fact that the GWR blt is wrong as that loco would have a topfeed, use the shirt button not GWR letters and there are four rivets missing from the interior of the cab. They are just used to the nuances of their narrow interest but blind to the same on other subjects. 
Now I could tell you that despite getting the different steps and smokebox correct that the loco on the left is actually the wrong length 😮

But equally I could mention that I don’t care as unless you park them side by side and look down from a drone angle you’d never realise even if you did know they are meant to be different 😆

 

Equally earlier in the thread someone said the choco box Swiss layout is a cliche,

I modelled mine after Peist and if anything the prototype was more chocolatey than my version!

©️Bilder Graubünden

 

Dutch windmills got called a cliche over the page but again sometimes they are appropriate and ultimately the vast majority of layouts are about recreating what we like about the images we have in our head. 
One persons hated cliche is another’s fond memory, just because you’ve seen it too many times in your head doesn’t mean others aren’t enjoying it. Does it claim to be a precise model of anywhere and ultimately does it matter? 
If a layout is at a show at least two people, the owner and show manager, liked it so there’s a fair chance others will too, if you’re not in that group then just walk on rather than tut or comment loudly. 😉

[Bernard Lamb]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

That does sound genuinely interesting. But will you also have to mix British and international scales (e.g. 00/H0), thus annoying other people as well?

The problem would be making a decision as to which scale to choose. Austerities are available in either scale. If you concentrate on the passenger workings, then 00 is easier but there is very little freight stock available. If you go for freight as the main theme then H0 would be better.

One day I will get round to scratch building a German flat wagon with side stakes in 00 to run on my Scottish Borders lyout. They were used for transporting weaving equipment.

Bernard

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

 

I don't know how easy the chassis would be to do..... to be able to stay true to protoype to, if you were motorising it, but the narrow-gaugeness of it allows more space into the body I suppose.

 

I would myself veer toward the "inspired-by" option as otherwise it may be so frustrating to try and keep true, that you might never get it done.  Also going freelance allows for modelling of another train and you then get to come up with some crazy concoctions for that.

 

Scenic break wise, some trees might well do it - not just at the actual exit point, but also strategically in the foreground. Ive also previously used a cluster of trees but with a piece of black card placed within the cluster to hide all light or visibility coming through, which becomes completely unnoticeable.

 

And with there being so much 1:64 scale road vehicles available (if you went to Sn3 1/2) there might be a suitable road vehicle that could do the job, if you wanted to put it in an odd position then model the vehicle as broken down or burnt out perhaps??? This could be a good view blocker if repainted https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/386698101016?epid=26062464881&itmmeta=01HRZFX1WTTR803PNR2816HBHY&hash=item5a0900c118:g:C6sAAOSwjtlktXZv&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4FAsU7Ls7ftt3lXSNY3Dib7DVr7jSyUrSWQCtYyCrExAt%2FT7TZa70f39xn%2B1wMSG06avN3HlgCpDjY5DSBep0zVWqqXe0dmjp8YouPUSHy4Cw4qEW7rA5jdnrmrB4N8OU%2F25QX3G8TH5aQRzjQo4M3IJ1aYNvH8pY0MLmlQfF%2Fd8AWfxBUqdvofYv1u7tPlHa4l%2FawAOtzhzU%2Bc4eCuuU189i8XOTHyUhj5vQiAFJSNBbHs%2F3aDc7oISCadppOJytQYbrIehYMzgHx1qP2wxRqIbJ31PvC4CCV3BstJ4EU9m|tkp%3ABk9SR_Ke9O_HYw for example.

 

 

Having already bought the Bachmann Wickham trolley I am tempted to go with standard gauge 00 (or possibly H0, though I suspect for the purposes of this sort of thing the distinction won’t be hugely relevant, and it’s wrong for the Wickham). In 00 especially it can sort of sit half way between 3’ 6” and standard gauge, which actually works quite well (I’ve seen a UK tram layout that uses 00 in the same way). S is an interesting idea and would make 16.5mm accurate for 3’ 6” gauge, but require a lot of rebuilding of the Wickham body. While they’re not visible in the modern pictures and video I’ve seen, I did think an abandoned example of one of the American-style bogie box cars used for the original banana traffic might also make a good scenic break (with a few trees as well, as you say, and in the apparent absence of any suitably tall buildings). I’m sure I can find a suitably cheap and knackered vehicle to start off with (either Triang Transcontinental or something from a US manufacturer). When (if?) my current 009 project is ever finished and I have the time of course…

[whart57]

12 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

How much of this is there, and did it used to be a larger network? In some ways it’s odd that it’s run by NS as elsewhere in Europe there are similar isolated cross-border railways run by the country that the line starts in (I think I’ve seen some on a map on the borders of France, Germany and Luxembourg).

 

It was originally built by a private company to link the port of Terneuzen with Mechelen (Malines) and bringing railway connections the other main towns of Dutch Flanders, Hulst and Axel. The history of Dutch Flanders goes back to 1648 and the treaties that ended the Thirty Years War and the Eighty Years War that started with the Dutch Revolt against the Spanish king. The merchants of Amsterdam wanted to keep control of trade into their former great rival Antwerp and had demanded both banks of the Scheldt river. During the great religious wars of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries that part of the river bank had also become protestant, probably as a result of the large numbers of protestant soldiers garrisoned there, which meant that when the Belgians revolted against the Dutch king in 1830, Dutch Flanders remained stubbornly loyal.

 

Until 1914 though the border was completely open for ordinary people so there was no problem a private company building a cross border railway. The problems arose after WW2 when much of the line and facilities at Terneuzen had been destroyed and needed rebuilding and the private company couldn't raise the capital to do so. The Dutch cared more about Terneuzen than the Belgians did so it was the NS that took things over in 1951. The line closed to passengers but the fact Terneuzen lies on a bend of the Scheldt and as a result has the deep water channel just off shore, it was a good location for industries that needed things like oil from overseas. A fair few industries sprung up around Terneuzen as the Dutch revived their economy during the fifties and sixties.

 

These days there is a tunnel under the Scheldt from Terneuzen to Goes and the rest of the Netherlands motorway network so the area is not so off the beaten track as it was. As a result there are a number of YouTube videos that give a flavour of operations today.

 

 

This one is from the 1990s when the 08 look-alikes of the 600 class (don't hammer me with the differences please) were handing over to the larger 2200 class

 

 

Or this one

 

 

It's a measure of how successful the line has been over the last sixty years that the traction power has had to grow from 4 wheel shunters to the 0-6-0s of the 600 class to fully fledged mainline diesels.

[Bernard Lamb]

16 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Sounds like the cliche of continental modelling which gets aired by the "foreign muck" brigade.

 

Seriously though, there are a lot of possibilities with Dutch railways, some that haven't even been explored by Dutch modellers themselves.

 

How many know for example that the first Dutch railways were broad gauge. The first lines were 2 metres centre rail to centre rail so 1950mm gauge. Regauging took place in the mid 19th century so it would be a bit of a niche affair.

 

Pre-grouping/nationalisation could be colourful, there was the Netherlands Central Railway with its yellow locomotives - later like the LBSCR in Britain changing to brown - or the North Brabant railway with 4-6-0s in blue.

 

There was an extensive local network with small tank engines and four wheel coaches. The preserved Hoorn-Medemblik line is an example of that. Post-war, for about five years, there was a local railway from Amsterdam's Haarlemmermeer station going south. Almost every tank engine type worked on it with Dutch and Swedish four wheel coaches. Freight traffic, primarily coal and chemicals, was hauled by outside framed 4-4-0s with large drivers. Later various diesel classes ranging from mainline types to four wheeled shunters worked the line, which survived for freight until 1986.

 

The main thing though was the Netherlands pioneer status in electrification, the consequence of which is the obsolescent 1500v DC power over nearly all the network (high speed line to Brussels and Paris excepted I think). Streamlined EMUs which were mirrored by streamlined DEMUs on the secondary lines. One interesting idea for a layout I saw many many years ago was based on Roodeschool up near Groningen. Passenger traffic was in the hands of single or twin DEMUs, which could of course be coupled together for rush hour trains, but there was also the gas industry requiring tank wagons and other stuff.

 

For freight traffic offering nearly every sort of wagon there is the small stand-alone network in Dutch Flanders. Run by the Dutch NS it connects with the Belgian railways. However the area served around Terneuzen has chemical works, oil refineries, sugar factories which get wagon loads of sugar beet and more. It's absolutely suitable for an American style wagon despatching layout. Unfortunately without mountains to hide fiddle yards in.

 

Or for a shelf layout there is the Distelweg freight terminus in Amsterdam. On the wrong side of the river Ij this collection of sidings - some running through the street - was served by a small ferry which could carry a four wheel shunter and a couple of wagons per trip. That expired in the late 80s or early 90s but there are local history websites that describe it.

 

And of course there was the temporary line that only ran during low tide that we modelled in the Great Model Railway Challenge.

 

So those Austerities are probably the least interesting subjects.

What is that supposed to mean?

I would have thought that a  model of a locomotive doing the job that it was built to do, would be anything but a cliche. With a choice of LMS. LNER and GWR coaches to haul, not to mention various pre grouping SR constituent companies, there would be a lot of interest. The modifications to RTR stock to replicate the actual conversions would be very interesting.  An inspection saloon comes to mind.

As for Austerities not being of much interest. Bachmann seem to have sold a few and the preserved machines seem to attract quite a bit of attention.

Of even more interest would be a layout using UK stock that was left behind at Dunkirk. That should have a very wide appeal.

Bernard

[whart57]

What that was supposed to mean that an anything goes philosophy was a cliche of Continental layout back in the 70s and 80s. The "line is near the French-German border so I can run French and German stock with a smattering of Swiss because I'm imagining a secondary route to Geneva ....."

 

As for Austerities not being of interest I was saying they were of less interest. They are after all just one loco class. OK two. By the late 1940s though they were only on heavy freight duties. Once the electrified lines were repaired the EMUs returned to take over most passenger duties. A whole new class of EMUs was designed and put into service in 1946 and 1947. The withdrawal of Allied troops from the three Western occupation zones and the creation of the federal republic of West Germany in 1949 also saw the return of German locos and rolling stock and the final return of captured Dutch stock, albeit not from East Germany or from other Soviet bloc countries. Rolling stock borrowed from Sweden also returned home. In short the period when Austerities might be hauling trains of mixed nationality rolling stock was very short, possibly eighteen months.

 

One other problem with modelling Austerities in post-war Holland is that they did a lot of their work after dark. Passenger traffic required lots of trains working an interval timetable. Fitting in a slow and heavy freight could clog everything up during the day.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

a layout using UK stock that was left behind at Dunkirk. That should have a very wide appeal.

Was there much left or was it destroyed by the retreating troops?, and more importantly, why on earth would that subject have "a very wide appeal."..???

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Was there much left or was it destroyed by the retreating troops?, and more importantly, why on earth would that subject have "a very wide appeal."..???

Destroying anything at the time was a very low priority.  In the context of foreign layouts being attractive to UK audiences then yes.

This discussion started on the UK punters' lack of interest in the railways of other countries. Foreign locations with Uk stock must surely be a help in getting folk to stop and take a look.

The Dean goods must be the best known example of left behind motive power. It ended up in Vienna, via goodness knows where. The German crews loved it. One ex LMS set of coaches got as far as Hamburg. 

Bernard

[wombatofludham]

On 14/03/2024 at 16:32, dave750t said:

So you're not familiar with the layouts of the great Dutch railway modeller, Driving van Trailer?

In Ireland there was a class of guards/steam heat van made by Werkspoor in the Netherlands colloquially named "Dutch Vans".

Silver Fox occasionally advertises kits of them on Tatbay, and often lists "Dutch Van Bogies" as spares on his listings, which to me sounds like an Irish-Dutch police inspector with an unpleasant nose picking habit.

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Destroying anything at the time was a very low priority.  In the context of foreign layouts being attractive to UK audiences then yes.

This discussion started on the UK punters' lack of interest in the railways of other countries. Foreign locations with Uk stock must surely be a help in getting folk to stop and take a look.

The Dean goods must be the best known example of left behind motive power. It ended up in Vienna, via goodness knows where. The German crews loved it. One ex LMS set of coaches got as far as Hamburg. 

Bernard

Theres an LMS Crane still in Budapest.

A Jinty made it to Berlin.

 

of course thats nothing, a Prairie made it to Poland 17 years ago.

 

 

8 coaches, plus  an EP08… that sounded nice.

Edited March 15 by adb968008

[MJI]

Netherlands with shunters, and EM2.

 

Portugal with EE stuff.

 

Bulgaria 87.

 

Mexico HST.

 

Australia various

 

NZ the Bo Bo Bo ftom brush.

[whart57]

16 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

This discussion started on the UK punters' lack of interest in the railways of other countries. Foreign locations with Uk stock must surely be a help in getting folk to stop and take a look.

 

 

Well just across the North Sea there was plenty of stuff that would be familiar to UK eyes. The Dutch State Railway (not a nationalised company but a private company operating the state built and owned lines, not unlike our present franchise system here) got most of its locomotives from Beyer Peacock and they were much like the locomotives British companies used at the time. Passenger carriages were the same style of a load of separate compartments with passengers facing each other on benches, each with their own doors, as British passenger carriages of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were. When the Holland railway decided to buy British in the 1890s what they bought was a class of 4-4-0s which could have slipped onto any British railway of the time without raising comment. The Netherlands Central Railway also bought from Britain and rebuilt some old 2-4-0s to be 4-4-0s of a distinctly British appearance. The Staatsspoor (State railway) was even left side running on double track sections before 1921. You could put a British looking 4-4-0 with three compartment carriages and a van in front of a windmill and a farm on a polder without breaking any rules on authenticity.

 

I would say the problem with modelling steam era Dutch railways in this country is that they aren't different enough, whereas bright yellow EMUs might be different but in these days of City Breaks hardly unfamiliar to UK railway enthusiasts.

[eldomtom2]

To wade back into the more "political" stuff, I do have some comments to make.

On 12/03/2024 at 20:42, adb968008 said:

Bw Lazy (Ostfront): 24.03.1942 - 13.08.1942

Bw Auschwitz: 14.08.1942 - 15.05.1943

Bw Groschowitz: 16.05.1943 - ?.01.1944

 

https://eisenbahn--museumsfahrzeuge-de.translate.goog/index.php/deutschland/staatsbahnfahrzeuge/dampflokomotiven/baureihe-58/58-311?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc
 

But they dont mention why, an aging 2-10-0 German freight loco, would be sent to a rural part of Poland, which wasnt a military centre, or an industrial area, nor was it on a critical war route to the Eastern front, for what can only be “non-essential” war work on rural routes to Czechoslovakia or Polish towns.

Oświęcim (under German rule renamed Auschwitz) was and is a railway junction of some significance. The idea that a locomotive would have been assigned there because of Auschwitz-Birkenau - when it is an undeniable fact that the deportation trains to the concentration camps were low-priority traffic to the extent that planned deportations were delayed due to lack of rolling stock - is implausible.

If you want to argue that there's enough of a chance that it was used on train to the Auschwitz camp that they should mention it that's a fair enough argument, but your argument goes beyond that.

On 12/03/2024 at 19:37, Craigw said:

The thing with modelling German railway subjects in WW2 and after that troubles me is not the flat wagons loaded with the material of war. It is the cattle wagons and vans that I know were being used for something else and travelling across other countries too.

This is a good example of how popular culture warps people's perceptions. You probably wouldn't think twice about a model of a third-class passenger carriage built in the first quarter of the twentieth century, but they were the stock of choice for trains deporting Jews from Western and Central Europe.

On 12/03/2024 at 21:47, 009 micro modeller said:

While it’s an extreme example, it’s not the only case of railway history being presented in a way that ignores the wider, more difficult, context. I’m tangentially reminded of this NRM research project, and some of the more outraged reactions to it.

"Context" is a difficult word. What "context" is necessary is a fundamentally political and subjective opinion.

On 13/03/2024 at 19:08, TJ52 said:

The Imperial War Museum has such a diorama. It’s black and white as there are no colour photos to give any idea what it actually looked like.

 

Terry

Hmm. I'm not sure that's actually the case - does the museum have other black and white dioramas of non-Holocaust subjects? The idea that "we don't know what the colours actually were, so we'll do it in a black and white" reflects its creators' beliefs about how the Holocaust should be portrayed.

 

Recent events at the Oscars (without taking a position here) serve as an excellent example of how the "memory" of the Holocaust is perceived as meaning different things by different people.

1 hour ago, F-UnitMad said:

Was there much left or was it destroyed by the retreating troops?

Most of the WD locos sent over to France survived the fall of France. Most stayed in France for the duration of the war and were returned to the UK after its end, but not all - some were apparently sent to China while at least one Jinty and a couple of Dean Goods survived in Central Europe into the 1950s - one Dean Goods remained in East German service until 1955. There are photos of the Jinty and one of the Dean Goods on this German forum thread.