Problem with a kit

[Geoff Butcher]

I've just bought off Ebay a Wills Finecast K3 kit described as 'complete'.  I now find it needs a Triang 2-6-2 chassis. Is there any chance of finding one of these, or should I return the kit to the seller?

[uax6]

Ebay will provide. 

 

Andy G

[adriank]

Comet might do a suitable 2-6-0 chassis - Wizard Models.

 

Adrian

[PMP]

58 minutes ago, Geoff Butcher said:

I've just bought off Ebay a Wills Finecast K3 kit described as 'complete'.  I now find it needs a Triang 2-6-2 chassis. Is there any chance of finding one of these, or should I return the kit to the seller?

The chassis, wheels, motor and gears in that era of kit weren’t supplied, so if all the white metal kit components are there, then the kit is complete. The chassis will be available second hand on sites like eBay or swap meets and second hand stalls at shows.

 

If the kit was advertised as complete including chassis then returning it will be easier.

[The Johnster]

The Triang 3MT chassis was nothing to shout home about, very much of it's time, and the driving wheels are much too small.  If Comet do a chassis kit for the Bachmann K3 or Southeastern Finecast (Wills' successors) do one for the current version of this kit, these would be the best bets. 

 

If not I would suggest that a Hornby Dublo 2-rail A4 chassis, easily found on eBay, could be suitable, using new Markits wheels, the original coupling rod, with a cylinder block, motion, and underframe detail from Bachmann's K3 obtainable as spare parts, but the axle spacing might be a bit off, meaning a bit of surgery to the underframe detail.  It won't be a scale model, it'll be a kitbash, but a better option than the original Wills suggested 3MT chassis, which has the wrong sort of crossheads as well as undersize wheels.  You will have to hacksaw off the rear of the HD A4 chassis block immediately behind the motor retaining screw, and it is possible that the motor will protrude into the cab.

 

In either case, you will be able to choose different gear ratios from the Markits range.

 

4 hours ago, PMP said:

The chassis, wheels, motor and gears in that era of kit weren’t supplied, so if all the white metal kit components are there, then the kit is complete. The chassis will be available second hand on sites like eBay or swap meets and second hand stalls at shows.

 

Quite (except for K's kits, which were complete with wheels, gears, and motors  But the supplied motors were not very good, meshing the gears was hit & miss at best, and getting one to run well was a pita).  If you were to source a Triang 3MT chassis and finish the kit to the 1960s Wills instructions, the result would be a model acceptable to the standards of the late 50s and 1960s, and would look very crude and basic now, especially the combination of the 3MT's small wheels and the big K3 boiler!  The Triang 3MT's driving wheels are much too small, the stamped Walcheart's motion looks nothing like anything Gresley signed off, the motor is probably going to intrude into the cab, and fine detail will be lacking, especially below the running plate. 

 

In those days we were amazed if anything ran, and over the moon if it looked anything a bit like the prototype as well; RTR has come a long way!  But the downside to this is that the obvious solution is to simply buy the Bachmann RTR K3, which kinda leaves your kit out in the cold a bit.  I understand why you'd want to do something with it, but the result may not be up to scratch.  It never going to have the fine detail or running quaities of the Bachmann model, and by the time you've worked it up it may not be much of a saving over the price of a Bachmann RTR either.  I know this isn't what you want to hear, sorry, but it is probably best to alert you to the potential problems before you decide to spend more money.

Edited February 13 by The Johnster

[kevinlms]

I agree with The Johnster, unless the ad for this kit SPECIFICALLY said it was complete with chassis, then you have nothing to make a claim against the eBay seller.

 

Some people like a challenge with old kits (of which there are many examples on RMweb), but sometimes there are better starting points. This seems to be a prime example.

[Andy Hayter]

SE Finecast offer a chassis kit for the K3.   I believe the range has been taken over by Squires.

 

http://www.sefinecast.co.uk/PriceList.pdf

[Wheatley]

What are the current SEF chassis kits like quality wise please ? I need one for the CR 3F tank (my supply of 1960s Triang Jinty chassis being sadly depleted) but I don't think I've ever seen one built up. 

[mike morley]

I've only seen a couple of the modern SEF chassis, but both were excellent.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

There are two Triang on   e bay at the moment.

[John Tomlinson]

13 hours ago, Geoff Butcher said:

I've just bought off Ebay a Wills Finecast K3 kit described as 'complete'.  I now find it needs a Triang 2-6-2 chassis. Is there any chance of finding one of these, or should I return the kit to the seller?

 

Some of the Wills kits expressly have Body kit written on the box, and state that a chassis is needed. If this is the case with yours then I doubt if you have a claim.

 

It would be complete in that everything to complete the body is present, rather than bits missing.

 

John.

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Wheatley said:

What are the current SEF chassis kits like quality wise please ? I need one for the CR 3F tank (my supply of 1960s Triang Jinty chassis being sadly depleted) but I don't think I've ever seen one built up. 

 

Extremely good.

 

This is the GWR 94XX one. There is another fret for the spacers, etc.

 

A quick look at the instructions suggests that it's the same one as the CR 0-6-0T and LBSC E2 but you use different parts which are provided. For the E2 you need to remove a bit of material to alter the profile.

 

You can build it either by using the etched spacers or using brass tubes bolted in. Both are provided as are the wires, bearings and pick ups. You can also fit hornblocks for compensation.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 13 by Steamport Southport

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Extremely good.

 

This is the GWR 94XX one. There is another fret for the spacers, etc.

 

A quick look at the instructions suggests that it's the same one as the CR 0-6-0T and LBSC E2 but you use different parts which are provided. For the E2 you need to remove a bit of material to alter the profile.

 

You can build it either by using the etched spacers or using brass tubes bolted in. Both are provided as are the wires, bearings and pick ups. You can also fit hornblocks for compensation.

 

Jason

 

Thank you, that is extremely useful. The CR 782 Class was unequal wheelbase, but as far as I'm aware the only other option (excluding Hornby Thomas etc chassis) is the Alan Gibson milled option which would involve sourcing almost everything else from scratch. Food for thought, thank you. 

 

Apologies for the thread drift, although hopefully it was of some use to the OP in terms of what to expect.  

[Steamport Southport]

SEF K3 chassis? Bear with me I think I might have one to photograph if I can find it!

 

 

Jason

[Siberian Snooper]

SEF kits that have etched chassis are produced by branchlines. I don't know if the artwork was transferred to Squires along with the cast kits. A phone call to Squires will ascertain whether they can supply an etched chassis. The Branchlines chassis go together well.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

No idea who makes the etches, but it says Modeltech for South Eastern Finecast on the etches.

 

Here's the etches for the K3 and tender including the extra one you now get for the different types of cab. Available separately ISTR.

 

And there is also lost wax cast slidebars and crossheads included as well as all the wire, screws, bearings, etc.

 

I'm afraid this phone isn't very good at taking photos, but if anyone wants any more of something specific in the kit then I can oblige.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 13 by Steamport Southport

[The Johnster]

There's a warning of sorts in all of this as well; caveat emptor.  Geoff Butcher, the OP, bought a kit on eBay that he expected to be able to make a running model of a K3 out of, on the incorrect understanding that a 'complete' kit included the chassis, wheels, gears, and motor needed to build the loco.  Not sure it if includes motion, some of them do and some don't.  We are all old hands at this and know the game, and it comes as a bit of a shock to see someone caught out like this, presumably someone who was not familiar with the status quo regarding kits from around 1960 onwards. 

 

There are reasons that these kits do not include much, and sometimes nothing, below the running plate.  'Bodyline' kits like Wills and Jamiesons were mostly designed to be used with RTR chassis, others included chassis parts ranging from a basic, usually brass, chassis block to detailed frames and spacers in etched brass or nickel-silver.  Sometimes you got thick brass bar frames pre-drilled for the axle bearings which screwed into tapped spacers. 

 

Different frame spacers mean that it is possibly to contruct the frame for 00, EM, or P4 use, which increases the versatility of the kit.  Not supplying wheels, motors, pickups, or gears also increases versatility, as the modeller can select those items to suit the result he is trying to achieve.  Not everybody will agree that these are valid reasons to not sell a complete kit that needs nothing else provided to make it go, but it is arguably neccessary to understand that this is the situation, and why.

 

K's (N & C Keyser) produced kits with everything in the box that you needed, except that they weren't always very good...  They were, of course, more expensive than the more basic kits of similar type, and as I've mentioned, the results were a bit hit and miss; the motors were inconsistently reliable or not, and meshing the gears was always fraught; this was before the days of integrated gearboxes which largely solved that problem.  I successfully built an 8750 pannier from one of their kits, but it was very much a 1960s model (no brakes, rodding, or other detail below the running plate) and I wouldn't tolerate it now, when RTR Bachmann and soon Accurascale 8750s are much better detailed and run much better.  An attempt at a 14xx was less successful.  I also managed a Westward 64xx, which featured a fold-up nickel-silver chassis that was a delight to build.  With Romford (now Markits) wheels & 40:1 gears and an Anchorage motor, all of which I had to purchase separately of course, it ran beautifully, but the Bachmann RTR version ran rings around it for detail. 

 

Sorry, I'm rambling a bit. Beyond sympathising with Geoff, we have outlined several potential courses of action for him that should end up with him having a working K3 on his layout.  Personally, I thing the best option is to abandon the kit, perhaps sell it on, and chalk it up to experience, buying the Bachmann RTR K3, but it may well be that the reason he bought the Wills Bodyline K3 was to save on the cost of the Bachmann.  That will have backfired a little, as he now realises he will have to factor in the cost of the chassis kit, motor, gears, and wheels (or a running Triang 3MT, which I doubt will satisfy him, it wouldn't satisfy me), or he may take the Southeastern chassis kit on as a challenge; whatever he chooses to do, we can only wish him luck with the project, and encourage him.  I think we're doing fairly well at that task!

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, kevinlms said:

I agree with The Johnster, unless the ad for this kit SPECIFICALLY said it was complete with chassis, then you have nothing to make a claim against the eBay seller.

 

Some people like a challenge with old kits (of which there are many examples on RMweb), but sometimes there are better starting points. This seems to be a prime example.

 

It's actually a very good kit. I also have an older version.

 

I can almost guarantee that Tony Wright is into double figures when it comes to Wills/SEF K3s and I doubt he's building rubbish kits!

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

20 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

 

Some of the Wills kits expressly have Body kit written on the box, and state that a chassis is needed. If this is the case with yours then I doubt if you have a claim.

 

It would be complete in that everything to complete the body is present, rather than bits missing.

 

John.

 

Most of the early Wills and Wills Finecast kits were designed to fit on to RTR Chassis, as do the un-revised Southeastern Finecast kits. Box clearly stated what chassis is required.

Later Wills produced cast whitemetal chassis for some of their kits, these were always extra and brought separately, this continues on today with Southeastern Finecast for the un-revised kits.

Under Wills Finecast the early early etched chassis were good but very basic, some of which are still used with a few kits in both ranges

The majority of etched chassis are very detailed

 

On 13/02/2024 at 06:47, Wheatley said:

What are the current SEF chassis kits like quality wise please ? I need one for the CR 3F tank (my supply of 1960s Triang Jinty chassis being sadly depleted) but I don't think I've ever seen one built up. 

 

In my opinion the quality of the etched chassis are very good to excellent, with some of the earlier designs whilst being quite basic are still better than average

What I find strange is the pricing, in that the cost for the smaller less detailed tank locos is still the same as those like the K3 which are far more detailed, possible with tender chassis and some even with castings. Resulting with chassis kits like the K3 being excellent value as well as quality

 

13 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

No idea who makes the etches, but it says Modeltech for South Eastern Finecast on the etches.

 

Here's the etches for the K3 and tender including the extra one you now get for the different types of cab. Available separately ISTR.

 

And there is also lost wax cast slidebars and crossheads included as well as all the wire, screws, bearings, etc.

 

I'm afraid this phone isn't very good at taking photos, but if anyone wants any more of something specific in the kit then I can oblige.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

The final etch comes with the complete kit and I doubt if it is supplied with the chassis kit, the MR Flatiron (and others) also have these additional body detail etches.

 

Most if not all of the Revised kits do come with extra detail, some just castings others with additional etches, I have in the past brought the extra parts to update a Wills/Wills Finecast kit for added detail

 

In short you were as others have said brought a complete Will kit (providing no parts are missing) it would have been better had the seller stated it required a chassis, but depending on what you paid it still may have been good value, and Squires have always treated me very well when I have brought parts/chassis from them in the future

 

I think this shows the value of both looking at photos supplied and reading the details prior to bidding and if either unsure or cannot see anything as the question first. As a seller as well as a buyer I don't mind replying to questions, as it may save future issues/confusions

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's actually a very good kit.

It is, builds into a very convincing model. The weight of the whitemetal means that the traction a 6MT rated loco should possess is available.

 

There is a trap for the unwary when it comes to the mechanism: build it with OO wheels anywhere near scale for the 5'8" nominal tyre diameter and the flanges will contact the footplating above. Best to use a 21 or 22mm diameter tyre. (Bachmann used a 21.5mm diameter tyre to enable as much metal as possible in the cast footplating to pack in the weight.)

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It is, builds into a very convincing model. The weight of the whitemetal means that the traction a 6MT rated loco should possess is available.

 

There is a trap for the unwary when it comes to the mechanism: build it with OO wheels anywhere near scale for the 5'8" nominal tyre diameter and the flanges will contact the footplating above. Best to use a 21 or 22mm diameter tyre. (Bachmann used a 21.5mm diameter tyre to enable as much metal as possible in the cast footplating to pack in the weight.)

 

This has been an age old issue dating back to at least the 60's, then the standard flanges of Romford wheels were made to a coarser standard than Markit wheels, the dodge most used was to buy wheels 1mm smaller, the other thing is that the original kit (which this is) was designed to for  Triang mechanism, not a scale model, these days we rely on Manufacturers advice on what wheels to use. None of this is much help to the novice builder, those of us with a bit more kit building under our belts have learnt the hard way by our own experiences.

 

Loco building is fun but sometimes it throws up challenges 

[Geoff Butcher]

Thanks very much for all the replies. I've now ordered a chassis kit from SE Finecast,

[TinTracks]

On 13/02/2024 at 03:37, The Johnster said:

If not I would suggest that a Hornby Dublo 2-rail A4 chassis

 Hi. I'm sorry but the HD A4 chassis won't fit. HD used the same upright,'' integral'' motor for both the 2 and 3 rail versions The pole pieces that wrap round the armature won't fit in the boiler of the K3 and the magnet will protrude into the tender! I've attached a picture of an old K3 kit sitting on a Triang 2-6-2 chassis compared to a HD A4 chassis.

 Regards, Rich

[hayfield]

32 minutes ago, Geoff Butcher said:

Thanks very much for all the replies. I've now ordered a chassis kit from SE Finecast,

 

Ask them if you could buy a new set of instructions, if the full set is not enclosed with the chassis kit

 

BTW The SEF chassis is so much better than the Triang/Hornby 2-6-2

[The Johnster]

48 minutes ago, TinTracks said:

 Hi. I'm sorry but the HD A4 chassis won't fit. HD used the same upright,'' integral'' motor for both the 2 and 3 rail versions The pole pieces that wrap round the armature won't fit in the boiler of the K3 and the magnet will protrude into the tender! I've attached a picture of an old K3 kit sitting on a Triang 2-6-2 chassis compared to a HD A4 chassis.

 Regards, Rich

 

Prolly best not to use that, then, tx Rich; I was trying to think of something as an alternative to the Triang 3MT block that had wheels that could be replaced with Markits, smaller flanges so you could get ball-park rightish size and still have the loco sitting at the correct height.  It would have been a bodge but so, IMHO, would the 3MT, albeit a Wills-approved bodge.  The HD representation of Gresley motion with the single slide bar is pretty good for something dating back to 1938, and much more appropriate for a K3 than the Triang 3MT's stamped double slide bar & crosshead folded over the top arrangement.  The OP has ordered an SEF chassis kit, which is undoubtedly the best option other than a Bachmann RTR K3.

 

Your photo shows that the HD A4's spindizzy would have stuck a long way out of the K3 cab, particularly the GNR version...