End of the line for (two-thirds of) the last Class 503

[billy_anorak59]

Two cars of the Class 503 going for scrap - As notified on FB : https://www.facebook.com/503unit

 

[Steamport Southport]

Someone needs flogging....

 

These were in perfect working condition when we had them.

 

Have they even offered them to others as there is a new multi million pound transport museum being built in Birkenhead....

 

 

 

Jason.

[billy_anorak59]

When were you involved with it Jason?

 

I personally reckon the rot started when the unit was split up the first time, and then when Wirral Council lost interest, probably to enjoy that other well-known Wirral icon, U-Boat U-534 (which they then cut into 3 pieces – at least the cl 503 is already in 3 pieces).

 

I think it was the Class 503 DMBS that was then left outside at the mercy of the elements and vandals.

 

As for the new museum, I’ll believe it when I see it – and even then, I’ll be amazed if it has any railway items of note. Positioned where proposed, it’s also going to need some pretty hefty security.

 

For the existing ‘Wirral Transport Museum’ (closed since November 2023), read ‘Wirral Bus and Tram Museum’. However, the new ‘Big Heritage Wirral Transport Museum’ seems to be talking a good job (so far), but when things like the Class 503 are being lost, and Mersey Railway No5 ‘Cecil Raikes’ still languishes in store, I’m afraid I can’t take the vision of a truly holistic transport museum reflective of all aspects of Wirral transport too seriously.

 

Thing is, no-one wants EMUs, do they? However historical - although the current appeal for the Class 507 seems to have a following - we'll see.

 

Edited February 14 by billy_anorak59
Tidy

[Northmoor]

While this is sad news it is probably the best remaining outcome if it means one car is conserved.

 

Very few heritage railways will consider that EMUs can form a loco-hauled set (with an air-brake-fitted loco) but the 503 wasn't likely to make a suitable set due to its buffing gear.  The biggest problem for EMUs is the lack of active and skilled volunteers; there are an awful lot of vocal enthusiasts who insist that a such-and-such EMU must be preserved, but rather fewer who continue to contribute financially once it is preserved.  It happens again and again; a locomotive or unit is under threat of scrapping, a group is formed to "save" it, they move it to a site where working on it is difficult or impossible, the financial support and volunteers slowly evaporate then the stock deteriorates further and after 5-10 years the cycle starts again.  And every time, the money (£000s) spent on road movement is money no longer available for restoration.

 

Graham G did an admirable job trying to create a museum at Coventry, but in the absence of running capability for EMUs, perhaps the way they are presented and explained to the public, needs some innovative thinking?  I've pondered the idea before that with a range of EMUs from the earliest surviving vehicles through LMS stock to BK Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 and "Networker" stock, should be parked side-by-side so that the visitor walks through them chronologically (you wouldn't need to have the whole of each vehicle restored internally), with displays drawing attention to how it had evolved from the previous design and crucially, explaining why.  As a tool for encouraging people into STEM careers - because there is plenty of mechanical, electrical engineering and product design to explain here - the vehicles might have a value much greater than as a few extra carriages, whose difference from the usual Mk1 TSO would be irrelevant to most railways' visitors.

[billy_anorak59]

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

While this is sad news it is probably the best remaining outcome if it means one car is conserved.

Absolutely! One car is obviously better than none, and it means the best fittings from all 3 cars can be combined to one complete car. This unit was always going to be static, and one complete car has the same interpretation potential as all three I guess.

 

Indeed I concur with all of your points, but I think a lot of enthusiasts don’t contribute until they can see that the project is viable, that they aren’t throwing their hard-earned money at a hopeless cause, and that project has a final outcome either as a static display (preferably under cover), or living and breathing on a heritage line. The hard part is getting the project off the ground and then getting the momentum. Because EMUs are unlikely to run that’s hard to buy into without a firm plan for its final outcome. Tough all round.

 

I met Graham G a few times at the Coventry ERM – he came over as a nice guy, and I much respect his hard work and what he (and all the volunteers) achieved there, in what were obviously far from ideal conditions.

 

I think what I was wittering on about previously is that there is a Wirral Transport Museum (was controlled by Wirral Council – now turned over to ‘Big Heritage’), which could have any number of Hong Kong trams and 80’s Atlantean buses, but the railway aspect is massively (completely?) neglected. So it’s not really a transport museum in its full sense (to me), when it should be. And the exhibits should be mainly pertinent to Wirral (to me).

 

As I read it, the remaining Class 503 car will still have no home – the Big Heritage museum would be the ideal (and obvious) place for it if restored, surely, close as it is to its old stomping ground? It would be great shown in a setting (small section of station platform, doors operating, compressor sounds?), much as the remaining LOR car is displayed on its overhead structure across the water in Liverpool.

 

But where could it be restored? I had hoped that Hooton Park could offer a restoration base, but seemingly the hangers there are full (mainly buses, lorries and caravans last time I looked). Shame.

And the people to do it? I’m sure they are out there, somewhere – witness what the guys at Burscough are achieving with the Class 502.

 

Finding them? Sorry, no answer/clue...

[Steamport Southport]

On 14/02/2024 at 09:09, billy_anorak59 said:

When were you involved with it Jason?

 

I personally reckon the rot started when the unit was split up the first time, and then when Wirral Council lost interest, probably to enjoy that other well-known Wirral icon, U-Boat U-534 (which they then cut into 3 pieces – at least the cl 503 is already in 3 pieces).

 

I think it was the Class 503 DMBS that was then left outside at the mercy of the elements and vandals.

 

As for the new museum, I’ll believe it when I see it – and even then, I’ll be amazed if it has any railway items of note. Positioned where proposed, it’s also going to need some pretty hefty security.

 

For the existing ‘Wirral Transport Museum’ (closed since November 2023), read ‘Wirral Bus and Tram Museum’. However, the new ‘Big Heritage Wirral Transport Museum’ seems to be talking a good job (so far), but when things like the Class 503 are being lost, and Mersey Railway No5 ‘Cecil Raikes’ still languishes in store, I’m afraid I can’t take the vision of a truly holistic transport museum reflective of all aspects of Wirral transport too seriously.

 

Thing is, no-one wants EMUs, do they? However historical - although the current appeal for the Class 507 seems to have a following - we'll see.

 

 

I was never really involved with it, the people who mostly looked after it and the 502 were volunteers from the Friends of the NRM North West Group. But we had it on loan along with the 502 where both were stored under cover and were in extremely good condition.

 

I did paint the yellow ends on the 502 though after someone pointed out that it wasn't allowed to run about on the mainline without them!

 

I also did a few minor jobs on them such as hitting things with a hammer when asked as many of the people looking after it weren't very mechanical minded.

 

https://www.class502.org.uk/history/history-2.php

 

A lot of people commenting online seem to think they were both neglected for decades. They weren't until they moved from Southport. Both had ran on the mainline whilst there!

 

Here it is in happier times.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossxpres/36236639984

 

 

I'm afraid I still believe that whoever let them get in the state they ended up in needs a slap. Unfortunately many of these people don't seem to care about preservation or heritage.

 

 

Jason

[Davexoc]

They were on the move yesterday, my daughter was going to Alton Towers and passed them travelling along the A50 towards Stoke...

[AMJ]

Unless a preserved unit can be used on the main line or dragged on a preserved railway there seems very little chance of the groups getting any form of passenger revenue.  This seems to stop a few groups.  The 504 at Bury saw some class 25 haulage at one time and now seems to be rusting - there is a website for the 504 but seems like nowt much has happened for many years.

 

The only other scenario is a dry warm museum that they can be stuffed and mounted in where public can view them.

[5944]

On 25/02/2024 at 11:15, Davexoc said:

They were on the move yesterday, my daughter was going to Alton Towers and passed them travelling along the A50 towards Stoke...

The two vehicles that are going to be scrapped are at Cockshute.

[phil-b259]

4 hours ago, AMJ said:

 

 

The only other scenario is a dry warm museum that they can be stuffed and mounted in where public can view them.

But, echoing Nortmoor’s comment,  if that’s the case do you really need all vehicles? Particularly if many of them are the same?

Edited February 27 by phil-b259

[Steamport Southport]

No idea why some people have an obsession with wanting to scrap everything. See the thread about the Shenfield Shark.

 

Seems some just don't like railway preservation for some bizarre reason.....

 

 

 

Jason

[AMJ]

Many who own stock that they deem is surplus will offer it to others.  Quite a few locations need to get rid of some items if they have plans for what will occupy the space.  Others will say they need to sell so that they have some money to keep their activities going, this might be done by selling to another group or individual or heaven forbid the scrap man.

 

Unfortunately there are some groups/individuals who are getting too old to be doing what they intended many years ago so without new blood assisting them groups will make awkward decisions.

[adb968008]

On 28/02/2024 at 14:13, Steamport Southport said:

No idea why some people have an obsession with wanting to scrap everything. See the thread about the Shenfield Shark.

 

Seems some just don't like railway preservation for some bizarre reason.....

 

 

 

Jason

 

Charles Darwin indicates a herd can only move at the speed of its slowest.

When the herd is under threat, sacrifices need to be made for the health of the rest.

The hobby, indeed the country and its people are economically struggling.

 

its not about scrapping, the unit is homeless again, without funds.

 

Fringe cases are going to be calved off for scrap because people are choosing where to rally funds, and where they are not… it seems there are no champions rallying money to the 503.

 

solve this riddle and preservations future is assured.

Its frustrating, but also helpless.

 

I remember seeing the 503 on Shap in a field and thought things looked a bit desparate then, it seems its never come back from that… Look at the story of the preserved class 506 for example… they gave up 3 decades ago. I worry also for the 504, 309…

 

They just arent getting traction, even the mega funded Brighton Belle hasnt crossed the line.

 

I cant help but think in a decade EMU preservation is going to take a turn, weve changed eras, generations and priorities, the economic environment maybe different, indeed Steam may become non viable on the mainline, technically, economically, politically and skills required. This may open the door for units (as has been seen in other countries), it might even be the Belle or the VEP that inspires it. but until then only the fittest will survive this desert.. and more rough decisions are going to come.

Edited March 2 by adb968008

[roythebus1]

You can't preserve everything. The Southern 4DD group found that out, luckily they now have 2 motor coaches under their control, but they are never likely to run anywhre except behind an air-braked loco. I'm also in the bus preservation world where there's always a cry of "oh look, there's a RT <insert other bus type> in a forest in the Azores, let's bring it back and restore it. Why? there's already over 200 of them in preservation. Oh look a Routemaster in eastern Europe. Let's bring it back and restore it. why? There's still over 1000 of them in existence. I own 2 quite rare BEA half-deck coaches, I've been financing their restoration for the last 50 years. One has been completed and got a Certificate of Initial fitness, the other is still in bits in the workshop. I also have a GS bus that I bought back in 1969. That too has the certificate of Initial Fitness to run in fare-paying service. The first in preservation, but it started a trend as there's now over 30 preserved out of a class of 84. Should I let mine go for scrap if nobody wants to take it on?

 

I feel for those who want to restore "modern" buses and rail traction. Once the electronics go pop you're stuck. when the GRP panels get broken, it's a bit of a task to make new bits. Not so difficult with olde stock made from timber and metal, make a new bit. But there is a limit to the funds and people with skills to make those bits.

[009 micro modeller]

11 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

You can't preserve everything. The Southern 4DD group found that out, luckily they now have 2 motor coaches under their control, but they are never likely to run anywhre except behind an air-braked loco.

The 4DD group does look like it’s doing well and things are coming together a bit more now though. That said, I don’t quite understand how the group is constituted - they did say they were going to introduce a membership and I was having a look and thinking of maybe joining the other day, but couldn’t work out how or if you could do so. It’s an odd one though because in some ways the really interesting stuff about the 4DD is unrelated to its status as an EMU - it could equally be a DMU or loco-hauled stock, for me the really exciting and unusual thing is that it’s the only mainline double-deck/split-level stock to have operated in Britain (unless anyone wants to point out something obscure that I haven’t heard of - which I’d also find really interesting). With the right kind of promotion and interpretation etc. that could be of huge interest even to a non-specialist, non-enthusiast audience because you could use it to discuss all the common questions (why have double-deck trains? Why aren’t there double-deck trains in Britain? and so on) that people might have, and I think even just being able to explore the restored interior of a static coach (including both levels) would be an interesting experience.

 

In terms of EMU preservation, the exception that springs to mind where it all seems to have worked out quite well is the London Transport Museum (largely static, obviously, but that’s not really the point I’m making). But that is mostly professionally run, supported by a large transport authority, located in a very good, easily accessible city centre location, and largely concerned with the history of a system that probably enjoys a larger following (amongst both enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts) than most other electric railways, all aspects that are probably difficult to replicate elsewhere.

[billy_anorak59]

On 02/03/2024 at 11:46, adb968008 said:

I remember seeing the 503 on Shap in a field and thought things looked a bit desparate then, it seems its never come back from that…

 

The unit that was at Tebay was not the Class 503, but the Class 502  - which is bucking the EMU trend and is doing very nicely under restoration at Burscough :

https://www.class502.org.uk/

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, billy_anorak59 said:

 

The unit that was at Tebay was not the Class 503, but the Class 502  - which is bucking the EMU trend and is doing very nicely under restoration at Burscough :

https://www.class502.org.uk/

Where was has the 503 been the past decades ?.. i assume Coventry at somepoint as nearly every unit has at some point been there.

[billy_anorak59]

18 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Where was has the 503 been the past decades ?.. i assume Coventry at some point as nearly every unit has at some point been there.

Probably best to see:

http://www.4sub4732.co.uk/downloads/503/4Sub_TheContactor06_503_Pages.pdf

 

Full story there.

[billy_anorak59]

Latest: Seems that the cab end of the DTS is to be saved.

Still sad, but far better than completely scrapped. Video here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YatIEPQ-a_8

[russ p]

Has a car of the 502 been scrapped?  I know probably easier said than done but would it not be a good idea to unite the 3 surviving mersey units to illustrate the difference between the two units 

[billy_anorak59]

17 hours ago, russ p said:

Has a car of the 502 been scrapped?  I know probably easier said than done but would it not be a good idea to unite the 3 surviving mersey units to illustrate the difference between the two units

 

The Class 502 is preserved as a two-car unit (they could be found as 2 or 3 car when in service), so both the DMBS and DTC of that unit have cabs. Not sure where you would put the remaining DMBS of the 503 in that case? (which also has a cab)

 

Also, the 503s have no buffing gear on the cab ends (just an automatic buckeye), so coupling would be a headache.

Indeed, the lack of buffing gear may also have led to it being less than attractive as towed stock (maybe by Class 73) on a heritage line.

[russ p]

1 hour ago, billy_anorak59 said:

 

The Class 502 is preserved as a two-car unit (they could be found as 2 or 3 car when in service), so both the DMBS and DTC of that unit have cabs. Not sure where you would put the remaining DMBS of the 503 in that case? (which also has a cab)

 

Also, the 503s have no buffing gear on the cab ends (just an automatic buckeye), so coupling would be a headache.

Indeed, the lack of buffing gear may also have led to it being less than attractive as towed stock (maybe by Class 73) on a heritage line.

 

Ah right.  For some reason I was thinking it had lost a driving car

[roythebus1]

Class 73s all have buckeye couplings and air brakes so should be able to pull the Mersey stock.

[jbhtrams]

Wirral Transport Museum nes owners are removing vehicles from the museum, so they will have no interest.

Is anyone interested in the other two cars yet. I'm sure buffers could easily be fabricated at a reasonable cost. The main problem would be replacement of the panels and windows. Some of the body framework too. These problems have been had with the Class 502 2-Car set, at Burscough, Lancs; slowly and surely the unit panels are getting replaced and fitted and  repainted. 

It with never run on third rail again (Never say Never), but plans are to take it to Preston Docks Railway and use as passenger stock, with a loco.

I'm sure there must be a railway somewhere that can take two coaches, hopefully, not in a field as they used to be???

John Harrison. Wallasey.

[jbhtrams]

On 14/02/2024 at 09:09, billy_anorak59 said:

When were you involved with it Jason?

 

I personally reckon the rot started when the unit was split up the first time, and then when Wirral Council lost interest, probably to enjoy that other well-known Wirral icon, U-Boat U-534 (which they then cut into 3 pieces – at least the cl 503 is already in 3 pieces).

 

I think it was the Class 503 DMBS that was then left outside at the mercy of the elements and vandals.

 

As for the new museum, I’ll believe it when I see it – and even then, I’ll be amazed if it has any railway items of note. Positioned where proposed, it’s also going to need some pretty hefty security.

 

For the existing ‘Wirral Transport Museum’ (closed since November 2023), read ‘Wirral Bus and Tram Museum’. However, the new ‘Big Heritage Wirral Transport Museum’ seems to be talking a good job (so far), but when things like the Class 503 are being lost, and Mersey Railway No5 ‘Cecil Raikes’ still languishes in store, I’m afraid I can’t take the vision of a truly holistic transport museum reflective of all aspects of Wirral transport too seriously.

 

Thing is, no-one wants EMUs, do they? However historical - although the current appeal for the Class 507 seems to have a following - we'll see.

 

WIRRAL Council say they are interested in Leisure, but when asked for money or help with it, they are not. I worked on the vintage trams for 14 years and now the new museum owners no longer want a working museum (insurance costs, etc) and do not Want work going on on trams etc.

They want exhibits to be static, buy interactive!!!

What's more interactive than riding on an old vintage vehicle?

We had around 80% of exhibits working when I worked there, now it is presently closed and no sign of it opening in yhd near future!

 

Jbhtrams