Peterborough North

[35A]

Until not long before my period it looked like this Allan.

arcade whole.jpg

There was a full overall roof over the Arcade bays till about 1957, but by 1958 it was in the sorry state as shown on my layout. Did it fall, or was it pushed? I have not yet managed to find out.

 

Fascinating, Gilbert. I love seeing the detail that I don't remember - and that includes the roof on the bays and the wall along platform 5. "Before my time", as they say nowadays on quiz shows, as an excuse for ignorance (my mitigation:  I was born in 1958). That is the only photograph that I've ever seen of that detail, so thanks for educating me a little more.

[chaz]

Our man on Platform 3 knew the Elizabethan was due, and was in position to get the classic view as it approached North box. He was not pleased when he heard the B1 on the Grimsby starting away behind him, and knew that it would shortly block his view. Fortunately, there was just time to capture this scene.

13 3.JPG

before the B1 got in the way.

1113.JPG

The B1 would however get little further, as signals are firmly against him. And I thought I had been so clever.   However, the signalman soon pulled the levers to the right positions, and all was well.

 

 

Would the driver really have got the train moving with the board firmly on? 

[great northern]

Fascinating, Gilbert. I love seeing the detail that I don't remember - and that includes the roof on the bays and the wall along platform 5. "Before my time", as they say nowadays on quiz shows, as an excuse for ignorance (my mitigation:  I was born in 1958). That is the only photograph that I've ever seen of that detail, so thanks for educating me a little more.

If people would like to see them, I can post a few more prototype images though obviously I'm constrained by copyright issues with many. I could probably find enough to sort of pad out the essence of the real thing back then though.

[great northern]

Would the driver really have got the train moving with the board firmly on? 

 This is where I admit I don't know as much as I should about the real thing. If the guard gave the right away at departure time, would that clear the train as far as the next governing signal?  Drivers did creep up to signals which were against them, hoping they would clear, didn't they, often whistling pointedly to remind the signalman they were approaching?

[great northern]

Golf down near Burghley House today, and it is going to be very hot again. Several litres of water and a lot of sunscreen will be required. Back at PN, we have a few moments of pure GC atmosphere to absorb.

Now for those ructions. Some idiot has not read the WTT properly. Yes, this is an E.Lincs service, and Monday to Thursday it terminates here. On Fridays though it is a through train to London. Much consternation then when the D11 is seen coming in. Quite OK for a leisurely stroll through Lincolnshire, but all the way to KX, some of it on the fast line? What's more, it is towing the usual five set, but on a Friday this should be a 12 coach rake to form a KX - Skegness service on Saturday morning. Heads will roll, but short term, what the **** is going to be done about it? While authority is trying to sort that during the five minute scheduled stop, we will wander back to the other end, where Mons Meg waits for the guard's whistle.

There is the B17 to look at if the A2 offends the eye. Actually, when I enlarged the image I thought it was quite a striking shot of 60504, so I did a heavy crop.

Off to swelter now.

[chaz]

 This is where I admit I don't know as much as I should about the real thing. If the guard gave the right away at departure time, would that clear the train as far as the next governing signal?  Drivers did creep up to signals which were against them, hoping they would clear, didn't they, often whistling pointedly to remind the signalman they were approaching?

 

Two things occur to me...

 

Giving that getting a train underway was not always the simplest task I doubt that any driver would want to do it twice.

 

I don't think the crew would want the train to have to stop with some of the coaches against the platform - there would be a risk to passengers who might be tempted to alight or board.

 

So I think it has to depend on distances, after all the section will not be cleared until after the interlocking has cycled so there is no advantage in traffic terms. 

 

"Drivers did creep up to signals which were against them, hoping they would clear, didn't they, often whistling pointedly to remind the signalman they were approaching?"

Yes they did, and I remember it happening to trains I was on, but only out in the sticks, not in station limits. I do remember a train pulling away from WGC (N2 & Artics) and coming to a sudden abrupt halt whilst it was still half-in the platform (I never did find out why) but it felt like someone had boobed. And not the same as your case.....or maybe.....?

[allan downes]

Golf down near Burghley House today, and it is going to be very hot again. Several litres of water and a lot of sunscreen will be required. Back at PN, we have a few moments of pure GC atmosphere to absorb.

GC.JPG

Now for those ructions. Some idiot has not read the WTT properly. Yes, this is an E.Lincs service, and Monday to Thursday it terminates here. On Fridays though it is a through train to London. Much consternation then when the D11 is seen coming in. Quite OK for a leisurely stroll through Lincolnshire, but all the way to KX, some of it on the fast line? What's more, it is towing the usual five set, but on a Friday this should be a 12 coach rake to form a KX - Skegness service on Saturday morning. Heads will roll, but short term, what the **** is going to be done about it? While authority is trying to sort that during the five minute scheduled stop, we will wander back to the other end, where Mons Meg waits for the guard's whistle.

504 and 1653.jpg

There is the B17 to look at if the A2 offends the eye. Actually, when I enlarged the image I thought it was quite a striking shot of 60504, so I did a heavy crop.

504 for close up.JPG

Off to swelter now.

 

Good grief, Gilbert. You're text almost brings those photo's to life and I'd swear that I got an eyeful of cinder looking at them !

 

Allan

[Oldddudders]

Two different scenarios here, I think, Gilbert. No, a train should not proceed from a stand at a platform until it has the road, except where otherwise authorised under printed local instructions. A safety consideration with slam-door stock, of course. And the guard would be in breach by giving right away until platform staff confirm station duties completed and the road given.

 

Where a passenger train is not booked to ge stopping, drivers will attempt not to enter a platform until the road is clear. Sometimes that is impossible, as their train may be fouling at the rear if stopped too far back, so they may indeed creep through, but at some point will stop, and must not proceed again until the same platform staff/guard interaction has been concluded.

[The Stationmaster]

Two different scenarios here, I think, Gilbert. No, a train should not proceed from a stand at a platform until it has the road, except where otherwise authorised under printed local instructions. A safety consideration with slam-door stock, of course. And the guard would be in breach by giving right away until platform staff confirm station duties completed and the road given.

 

Where a passenger train is not booked to ge stopping, drivers will attempt not to enter a platform until the road is clear. Sometimes that is impossible, as their train may be fouling at the rear if stopped too far back, so they may indeed creep through, but at some point will stop, and must not proceed again until the same platform staff/guard interaction has been concluded.

 

Not quite so.  The guiding light here is in some respects - but not all - Rule 127 which made it quite clear that 'after station work is completed (a Driver) must not move his train towards the signal controlling the starting of trains from a platform, before it is lowered, except when specially ordered to do so by the Station Master.'

 

Now one can expand the debate to addressing whether or not that signal does in fact 'control the starting of trains from a platform' (as it is actually the Home Signal for the 'box which works it) added to which in this particular case it is not exhibiting a correct danger position (or a clear position).   Another interesting point of course - although not applying here - is that as it is the Home signal the only way a train can be prevented from approaching it is for the Signalman to not accept the train - no doubt resulting in chaos at the other end of the station.

 

My own conclusion in view of the position of the arm is that the heat has possibly caused problems with the signal wire and the signal is therefore not properly off and is being flagged by the Signalman or the Driver has been instructed by a member of station staff to regard the signal as 'off' and been given authority to pass it.

[New Haven Neil]

Absolutely love the D11/Mons Meg shot.  The P2 A2 looks very purposeful, leaning into the load sort of thing.  I must be getting old.....it's a Thompson......oh well. GC heaven later too, muchas gracias.

[great northern]

Not quite so.  The guiding light here is in some respects - but not all - Rule 127 which made it quite clear that 'after station work is completed (a Driver) must not move his train towards the signal controlling the starting of trains from a platform, before it is lowered, except when specially ordered to do so by the Station Master.'

 

Now one can expand the debate to addressing whether or not that signal does in fact 'control the starting of trains from a platform' (as it is actually the Home Signal for the 'box which works it) added to which in this particular case it is not exhibiting a correct danger position (or a clear position).   Another interesting point of course - although not applying here - is that as it is the Home signal the only way a train can be prevented from approaching it is for the Signalman to not accept the train - no doubt resulting in chaos at the other end of the station.

 

My own conclusion in view of the position of the arm is that the heat has possibly caused problems with the signal wire and the signal is therefore not properly off and is being flagged by the Signalman or the Driver has been instructed by a member of station staff to regard the signal as 'off' and been given authority to pass it.

One problem Mike is that the signal which stubbornly refuses to return to the on position fully doesn't apply to the road the B1 is on. The vagaries of PN mean that the starter is in front of the engine's smokebox and to the right, and the other two which apply are the home and distant on the bracket  a bit further on, and on the left. We also have the question of that underslung signal on the Down platform. That, as I understand it, was there to allow drivers of non stop trains to see whether they had a clear road, as the overall roof prevented them from seeing the signals further up. That one on the platform though would be in front of the B1 where it was standing, so would that also need to be pulled off before the train could proceed?

[great northern]

We now find out why the J15 was hanging about, as it has moved along and backed onto the coaches that the N5 had placed in number 1 bay. It will make the short trip down to East at 3.22pm.

Coming the other way is a Doncaster semi fast. It should have a 36A engine, but they couldn't resist giving an ex works Haymarket A3 a trip up to London and back.

The grimy A4 alongside is waiting to take over the Horthumbrian.

 

 

[great northern]

Shiny A3s cannot be ignored, especially the occasional Scottish visitor, so the cameras were still being pointed at 60090.

and the B17 in the background is a bonus. It will be doing something later, the 4.40pm Harwich in fact, but for the time being it remains a lovely backdrop to other shots. The A3 then left, and almost immediately comes into view, with Sir Nigel himself at the head.

Not a very sharp picture, bit I liked the effect of it being framed by the coaches in the bay on one side and the wagons on the other.

[islandbridgejct]

Gilbert, I wonder could I return to your reply to my tongue in cheek comment about locos heading off with nameboards? Did each shed really have its own nameboard for named trains, and how did that work if the loco that took over at Peterborough, and was taken off at Grantham / York / wherever, did not immediately return with the same train?

 

Who was responsible for the nameboard - attaching it, removing it, and making sure nobody made off with it?

 

Or were you just winding me up with your reply? If so, very well done - you got me.

 

Alan

[The Blue Streak]

Shiny A3s cannot be ignored,

 

and a Grand Parade it makes as it passes too Gilbert !!

[stewartingram]

Shiny A3s cannot be ignored, especially the occasional Scottish visitor, so the cameras were still being pointed at 60090.

90 and 23 2.JPG

and the B17 in the background is a bonus. It will be doing something later, the 4.40pm Harwich in fact, but for the time being it remains a lovely backdrop to other shots. The A3 then left, and almost immediately comes into view, with Sir Nigel himself at the head.

7 1.JPG

Not a very sharp picture, bit I liked the effect of it being framed by the coaches in the bay on one side and the wagons on the other.

 

Ah, the real life memories of PN come flooding back. Thanks Gilbert.

 

Stewart

[The Stationmaster]

One problem Mike is that the signal which stubbornly refuses to return to the on position fully doesn't apply to the road the B1 is on. The vagaries of PN mean that the starter is in front of the engine's smokebox and to the right, and the other two which apply are the home and distant on the bracket  a bit further on, and on the left. We also have the question of that underslung signal on the Down platform. That, as I understand it, was there to allow drivers of non stop trains to see whether they had a clear road, as the overall roof prevented them from seeing the signals further up. That one on the platform though would be in front of the B1 where it was standing, so would that also need to be pulled off before the train could proceed?

 

Apply the Rule 127 answer Gilbert BUT that would only authorise a Driver to approach said signal (with a short train that could be quite likely of course; doubtful if it would be done with a longer train unless it was foul at the south end  of the station).  BUT it does not authorise the Driver to pass the signal at Danger.

[New Haven Neil]

Aren't those J15's pretty little things?  I don't notice the handrail knobs now either, the oddness has faded away.  I must weather mine, but it certainly is the best running steam loco I have.

 

Nice to see yours getting a canter out.

[Ian Smeeton]

 This is where I admit I don't know as much as I should about the real thing. If the guard gave the right away at departure time, would that clear the train as far as the next governing signal?  Drivers did creep up to signals which were against them, hoping they would clear, didn't they, often whistling pointedly to remind the signalman they were approaching?

 

After the collision at Paisley Gilmour St (Wallneuk Jct) in 1979, there was a change.

 

"A type of SPAD (signal passed at danger) accident known as ding-ding, and away. This accident prompted British Rail to change the Rules so that the bell or "Right Away" signal is only given when the Starting signal has been cleared" (from Wikipedia)

 

Regards

 

Ian

[stewartingram]

Just a pedantic point about the J15 shot (lovely as it is).

 

Shouldn't platform barrows always be parked parallel to the track, so that if they ran away they wouldn't foul the track?

 

Stewart

[great northern]

Gilbert, I wonder could I return to your reply to my tongue in cheek comment about locos heading off with nameboards? Did each shed really have its own nameboard for named trains, and how did that work if the loco that took over at Peterborough, and was taken off at Grantham / York / wherever, did not immediately return with the same train?

 

Who was responsible for the nameboard - attaching it, removing it, and making sure nobody made off with it?

 

Or were you just winding me up with your reply? If so, very well done - you got me.

 

Alan

No Alan, it wasn't a wind up. Each shed resonsible for a named train had a headboard, with the owning shed's name stencilled on the back. When the next train was to be worked the headboard was still attached, but reversed, as shown below.

and I then found this which is very rare, but seems to show the Gateshead engine having come off, and KX having taken over.

[great northern]

Tonight we have another engine change from KX to Gateshead, but in the opposite direction, and some 29 miles to the North.

One can imagine the feelings of envy the Gateshead driver must have for his Top Shed colleague, who has had to do just 76 miles with a beautifully kept A4, and with double chimney too, when he is faced with 190 miles on the footplate of a run down loco, due for shopping, and one of the last single blast A4s in service.

[great northern]

Just a pedantic point about the J15 shot (lovely as it is).

 

Shouldn't platform barrows always be parked parallel to the track, so that if they ran away they wouldn't foul the track?

 

Stewart

I can remember playing shove hapenny, and the inevitable splinters in fingers, on Retford station and on barrows parked end on to the track. They were butted up to the main building wall though, so some distance from the edge.

[great northern]

Aren't those J15's pretty little things?  I don't notice the handrail knobs now either, the oddness has faded away.  I must weather mine, but it certainly is the best running steam loco I have.

 

Nice to see yours getting a canter out.

Pretty irresistible I found it Neil, as you can see. It's one of those marginal locos that my head says I can do without. My heart said otherwise.

[manna]

Golf down near Burghley House today, and it is going to be very hot again. Several litres of water and a lot of sunscreen will be required. Back at PN, we have a few moments of pure GC atmosphere to absorb.

GC.JPG

Now for those ructions. Some idiot has not read the WTT properly. Yes, this is an E.Lincs service, and Monday to Thursday it terminates here. On Fridays though it is a through train to London. Much consternation then when the D11 is seen coming in. Quite OK for a leisurely stroll through Lincolnshire, but all the way to KX, some of it on the fast line? What's more, it is towing the usual five set, but on a Friday this should be a 12 coach rake to form a KX - Skegness service on Saturday morning. Heads will roll, but short term, what the **** is going to be done about it? While authority is trying to sort that during the five minute scheduled stop, we will wander back to the other end, where Mons Meg waits for the guard's whistle.

504 and 1653.jpg

There is the B17 to look at if the A2 offends the eye. Actually, when I enlarged the image I thought it was quite a striking shot of 60504, so I did a heavy crop.

504 for close up.JPG

Off to swelter now.

G'Day Gents

 

What did happen to the D11 saga, did it run through to the 'Cross', was it substituted for a B1/A3/K3, Breathlessly waiting the outcome........

 

manna