Peterborough North

[DaveF]

It simply has to be the Deeley version of the compound 4-4-0s.

 

David

[jazzer]

I have to go with the Deeley compound as well. Half a century is a pretty good life span for any design . I never saw one in the flesh but I spent hours drooling over a picture in an advertisement for a Bassett- Low ( the spell checker won’t let me get further than that) version, and wanted one so bad it hurt but I never had one.  

[New Haven Neil]

Oh I have to avoid any contentious locos designed by one and modified by another CME.....  but surely I will be allowed the Compounds...pretty please.......I'll be good.....

[Clive Mortimore]

Bit of a difficult one being as only three classes were pure Deeley, the 0-4-0T dock thanks, the Flatirons and the 990 class 4-4-0s. Despite being an advocate for superheated Belpaire boilers this work was done under his successor Sir Henry Fowler. He did improve the Johnson class 3 Belpaires and the last batch of new class 3 0-6-0s had his version of the H boiler, the HX, his design of smokebox and cab but were basically a Johnson goods engine. The work he done of reboliering the various 4-4-0 classes with H boilers did improve them but Fowler superheating them was the real improvement. His contribution to making the Johnson Compounds the success we all know cannot be over looked but were they his design?

 

For longevity of an original design by R M Deeley it has to be  1528 Class 0-4-0T

 

 

[LNER4479]

Oh good - I'm glad the Compound is getting a mention this time round. I do think it's better regarded as a Deeley machine.

 

A remarkable loco in many ways, given the relatively indifference to the compound principle in this country otherwise. Famously continued further (under Fowler's tenure) as the early LMS 'standard' express passenger loco, thus perpetuating the infamous 'small engine' policy to its limit and seeing the combined class total a remarkable 245 examples.

 

And gloriously, the original (in the sense of the axe in the Tower of London) survives and even more gloriously saw mainline use into the 1980s, allowing me to capture the following picture:

 

 

Was there ever a more magnificent pairing of locos than a Jubilee and Compound in Crimson Lake livery? This was the (famous?) occasion in 1983 when they worked north to Carlisle in a virtual white out (very few photos) but then worked south two weeks later in more manageable conditions. This therefore is the southbound working. They're about a mile short of Ais Gill summit, with 14 MkIs in tow so No.1000 was having to chip in, no doubt about it.

 

A grand sight and very much now part of modern history, more's the pity. It was good whilst it lasted.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by LNER4479

[TrevorP1]

15 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Oh good - I'm glad the Compound is getting a mention this time round. I do think it's better regarded as a Deeley machine.

 

A remarkable loco in many ways, given the relatively indifference to the compound principle in this country otherwise. Famously continued further (under Fowler's tenure) as the early LMS 'standard' express passenger loco, thus perpetuating the infamous 'small engine' policy to its limit and seeing the combined class total a remarkable 245 examples.

 

And gloriously, the original (in the sense of the axe in the Tower of London) survives and even more gloriously saw mainline use into the 1980s, allowing me to capture the following picture:

 

 

Was there ever a more magnificent pairing of locos than a Jubilee and Compound in Crimson Lake livery? This was the (famous?) occasion in 1983 when they worked north to Carlisle in a virtual white out (very few photos) but then worked south two weeks later in more manageable conditions. This therefore is the southbound working. They're about a mile short of Ais Gill summit, with 14 MkIs in tow so No.1000 was having to chip in, no doubt about it.

 

A grand sight and very much now part of modern history, more's the pity. It was good whilst it lasted.

 

 

That brings back memories! I'm on that train somewhere.

 

We went up to see the northbound as well and stood at Ribblehead in the snow waiting for it. Little known to us (no mobile phones in those days!) I believe the wires were down on the west coast mainline somewhere and there was a debate as to whether it would run at all in order to make way for diverted trains. It eventually did, 90 mins late as I recall. I've never been so cold before or since. Later in the day we saw quite a few re-routed west coast expresses. Completely barking mad we must have been!

[2750Papyrus]

I couldn't find my Midland Railway history when the Johnson vote was open but stumbled on it straight away when looking for the Bulleid biography!  It confirmed my thoughts that the first compounds were by Johnson but that it was Deeley who linked the live/exhaust steam control to regulator opening.  This led to the most successful use of compounding in the UK so, if allowed, the Compound gets my Deeley vote.  If not, a belated vote for Johnson and Deeley's long-lasting claim to fame becomes the introduction of the power classification system subsequently adopted by the LMS and BR eg 2F.

 

One of the more intriguing "might-have-beens" is the proposed Deeley compound 4-6-0.  Sadly, the politics surrounding the Pagets led to his resignation and arguably condemned the Midland and LMS to years of the small-engine policy and double-heading.

[LNER4479]

54 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

 

That brings back memories! I'm on that train somewhere.

 

We went up to see the northbound as well and stood at Ribblehead in the snow waiting for it. Little known to us (no mobile phones in those days!) I believe the wires were down on the west coast mainline somewhere and there was a debate as to whether it would run at all in order to make way for diverted trains. It eventually did, 90 mins late as I recall. I've never been so cold before or since. Later in the day we saw quite a few re-routed west coast expresses. Completely barking mad we must have been!

Yep - that sounds about right for the northbound run! My Dad went out to see it (I wasn't with him on that day) but reckoned he boxed a bit clever by playing it safe and satisfying himself with Settle Junction. The result was a passable piece of cine footage of them charging through the junction and on to the 1-in-100 at the then regulation 60mph.

 

I've just checked the date of the southbound run from my 1983 photo album - 12th Feb 1983. We drove all the way to Carlisle and started off on Upperby, free to watch loco preparation from a safe / sensible distance (they didn't mind in those days!), saw you at Newbiggin then overtook during the Appleby water stop (I used to love those races!) to get into position at Mallerstang.

 

A grand day out. Only thing stopping it from being a perfect day was that the sun didn't shine!

[great northern]

next is the arrival of the afternoon local from Hitchin, L1 hauled today.

 

 

[jazzer]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Bit of a difficult one being as only three classes were pure Deeley, the 0-4-0T dock thanks, the Flatirons and the 990 class 4-4-0s. Despite being an advocate for superheated Belpaire boilers this work was done under his successor Sir Henry Fowler. He did improve the Johnson class 3 Belpaires and the last batch of new class 3 0-6-0s had his version of the H boiler, the HX, his design of smokebox and cab but were basically a Johnson goods engine. The work he done of reboliering the various 4-4-0 classes with H boilers did improve them but Fowler superheating them was the real improvement. His contribution to making the Johnson Compounds the success we all know cannot be over looked but were they his design?

 

For longevity of an original design by R M Deeley it has to be  1528 Class 0-4-0T

 

 

It’s very difficult because from around the start of the 20th Century it’s very difficult to say almost any design is a “pure” or original design, and those that were usually needed some development by subsequent engineers before they reached their potential. The question is where does one draw the line ? The rebuilt Merchant Navies, for example, are still referred to as  Bullied Pacific’s although they needed a dramatic rebuilding  by others, to reach their full potential.

 

[great northern]

The L1 has finished its 44 mile journey from Hitchin, and will shortly go on shed. I'm not sure what its return duty might be.

 

 

[great northern]

Not too contentious after all. There seems to be general agreement that the Compounds qualify as a Deeley design, and they won comfortably.

 

Mr Wainwright today. Even I know he designed some very nice locomotives.

[New Haven Neil]

Teetering on the edge of 'who's-was-it' controversy once more, I have to vote for the L class, mostly Wainwright with a tiny touch of Maunsell!  Probably a bit of Borsig too, to be honest.....

[St Enodoc]

For cuteness it ought to be the Ps (I'll take a P please, Bob) but for utility and quantity it has to be the Cs.

[Clive Mortimore]

Wainwrights? Hogo (cocker spaniel) says their duck and rice is quite nice.

 

What the L is my dog on about.

[3rd Rail Exile]

A number of worthy classes here, particularly the Cs and Ps as already mentioned, and the various 4-4-0 express classes. 

 

But after much thought I'm going to go for the H class.  

[30368]

Some good choices made from Harry Wainwright's "portfolio"  already, the "H" 0-4-4T in particular had to be fairly good loco's to survive all that time although Push-Pull fitment would have helped.

 

For me though it has to be the obvious choice the very graceful "D" class 4-4-0 of 1901 part of the final "flurry" of classic British 4-4-0 express locomotive designs before Churchward's innovations. The D1 re-builds were very good too.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Metropolitan H]

The "C" class 0-6-0 contributed the biggest number of locos in any class designed by Wainwright, with the "H" 0-4-4T next in line. The were both good at what the were designed to do on a morely built and maintained railway infrastructure - particularly the LCDR bits.

 

However, the stars of the Wainwright era were the D and E 4-4-0s, with the belpaire boilerd Es being the stronger of the two types.

 

So my vote goes to the "E" class 4-4-0 as the best and most successful of the wainwright designs.

 

I've discounted the "L" 4-4-0 as I can't see how it can be counted a Wainwright success - the SECR board retired him before the order was placed - on the grounds that the design was too old-fashioned - and then got others to improve the specification / design before the order was placed.

 

Regards

Chris H

[David Bell]

I will go with the H class 0-4-4T

[CHAZ D]

For me the C class has to edge it.

[jazzer]

Class H tank gets my vote

[69843]

Just to be completely different, I'll go the J. Strictly the last true Wainwright locomotive, and a rather good little loco. Plus, it is not easy to make a good looking 0-6-4T

[jollysmart]

Close call in my mind at least but the E Class 4-4-0 is the final choice for today.

[Denbridge]

H class, such a lovely looking locomotive. Plus ive driven 263 at the Bluebell

[great northern]

During all the recent comings and goings the 9F has been waiting for parcels to be dealt with. Our man decided he would take another picture of it.