Exhibition expenses.

[Graham Heather]

Is anyone prepared to explain the different types of expenses that could be covered by attending an exhibition. Does this vary by the venue and the number of attendees at the exhibition.

In Australia, the exhibition spilts the revenue between the exhibitors and the club holding the exhibition after the event expenses have been made. Sometimes a donation to a specified charity is part of expenses.
Trade stands pay according to the floor space required and the layouts get reimbursed an equal amount according to how successful the exhibition was.  

Private layouts get to keep the whole amount, while clubs pocket the money with some expenses taken out.

Amounts received from attending exhibitions over the past two years are usually between one hundred and three hundred pounds paid either on the last day or in the next few weeks.

Graham.

[TheQ]

My own club in the UK, 1 day small shows.

Expenses paid are to cover fuel  plus van hire.

Free bacon butty before the show opens, free tea / coffee all day, free lunch time meal. Had we had a two day show, we would pay hotel accommodation.

Profits from the show are my clubs, that's what helps fund the club.

 

Edited February 20 by TheQ

[Chris M]

In the UK the "normal" situation is as follows:-

Trade exhibitors pay for their space at a rate determined by the exhibition manager or team. Sometimes trade exhibitors can have free drinks at a show

Layout exhibitors get re-imbursed for fuel and van hire (if required) . Layout exhibitors are also usually provided with free tea & coffee (often made by themselves in a designated room) and lunch. Lunch can vary from a sandwich through mini fish & chips to a cooked meal. Warley provided a cooked meal at the NEC and Taunton club provide a voucher which goes a long way towards the excellent meals cooked by the catering staff at their venue. Where overnight accommodation is required a hotel is provided complete with breakfast. Layout exhibitors pay for their own evening meal and any incidental food etc. Some layout exhibitors will not want expenses if they think the show is for a good cause.  Club layouts going to other clubs shows will work on the same basis as individuals. The costs of the layout operators will be covered but no donation to the club is expected. 

Sometimes one club provides stewards for another club's exhibition and the exhibiting club may make a donation to the club that helped out in this way.

 

The above is the way it mostly works but are not hard rules. I know of one show where they do not provide food or drinks to layout exhibitors. I don't like this so the last time I was invited there I said no thank you.  Some layout exhibitors have tried to charge a lot on their expenses, for instance wanting 45p per mile for their car. If that happens they will not be invited again. Quite a few exhibition managers state a mileage rate which makes fuel costs clearer but I would often want less than that to cover my actual fuel costs.

 

The above arrangements seem to be quite equitable to me.

 

[ELTEL]

Hi Chris, I have been exhibiting with club layouts and my own layouts for well 25 years and I would totally agree with the facts as in your above post.

 

Terry 

 

 

[Dungrange]

I don't think there are any rules.  One thing not mentioned already, which seems to be quite common in Scotland is reciprocal arrangements - ie we'll attend your show in June for free if you'll attend our show in October on the same basis.  It doesn't necessarily change the costs of running an exhibition because you're paying your own club members expenses (if they claim them) rather than another club's expenses, but it reduces the temptation to have too many of your own club layouts on display (to keep the costs down) but which creates operator shortages.

 

However, at the end of the day, it's a series of agreements between two parties and all that matters is that each party is happy.  A few of our club members took a layout to a small exhibition several hundred miles away, simply because they wanted to go.  Those who went were aware that the exhibition never paid for exhibitor's accommodation, rarely paid for van hire and tended to just pay fuel costs.  Being a small show, the exhibition manager had a relatively small budget available to book layouts, which meant that he was rather hesitant about our offer to attend because he knew that our fuel costs alone would be a lot more than his budget on a per layout basis.  However, in the end we struck a deal to attend for a fixed payment equal to about two thirds of our estimated fuel cost and everyone was happy.  At that, our expenses were more than he was paying the other layouts, but then we were able to bring a large layout in a trailer which took up twice as much space as a small layout that would fit in the back of a car.

[fulton]

Having exhibited various layouts for the last 50 years (that makes me feel so old!) I agree with the previous comments, I enjoy exhibiting and try not to be mercenary  on expenses, where I could have driven home on the Sunday night I have paid for an extra night to make the weekend more enjoyable, also if it is a show I would have been visiting anyway I do not ask for all expenses as I am getting in for free, as well as free teas and a meal. I do treat a commercial show differently to a amateur club show.

[298]

There does seem to be an attitude that fuel expenses are there to be claimed, when in reality for a local show once you and your mates have got in for free and had food and drinks provided, you probably owe them money-especially if you were going to the show anyway and have still had time to enjoy it, and been given an exhibitors discount as a lot of traders kindly do.

 

Just to confirm though, expenses is one thing but you'll never be reimbursed for the things you need to bring a layout up to exhibition standard (curtains, spare controllers, wear and tear to stock and increased cleaning and maintenance, etc.), plus the time spent doing so and filling out paperwork and risk assessments, but having seen wads of the folding changing hands for layouts that look like they have just fallen out of a haunted loft, where one train "the best runner" has been doing laps all afternoon whilst the operator has forty winks, there is definitely something amiss with the whole culture of getting paid for it...

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, 298 said:

There does seem to be an attitude that fuel expenses are there to be claimed

 

That's a pretty serious accusation.

 

In all my years exhibiting, I never over-claimed, and didn't know anyone else who was looking to rip off the organisers. Generally, we ended up out of pocket slightly.

 

3 minutes ago, 298 said:

but having seen wads of the folding changing hands for layouts that look like they have just fallen out of a haunted loft, where one train "the best runner" has been doing laps all afternoon whilst the operator has forty winks, there is definitely something amiss with the whole culture of getting paid for it...

 I must have been doing the wrong shows. I certainly never invited the wrong people though as none of that happened at any show I was involved with. And if it had, the layout owner would have found their invites dry up pretty quickly...

[Neil]

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules. I used to be on the organising committee for the York show and now I help out a bit with the Corris Railway's exhibition (August bank holiday, Machynlleth) and they're both very different in terms of what they can provide. However exhibitors and traders at both seem to appreciate those differences and tailor their expectations to match. The common theme is that bar a few grumbles, which usually have nothing to do with remuneration, a good time is had by all. I guess that those just in for the cash soon move on to more lucrative enterprises.

[Geep7]

I've always treated being invited to exhibit one of my layouts as a compliment to my modelling, and a privilege to share it with my follow modellers and the wider public. Therefore, i've only ever asked for the bare minimum in fuel costs. It's very much appreciated to be offered free tea and/or coffee, and a free lunch. It is, after all, a very long day, or weekend, as an exhibitor. But, I do pack some supplies myself, just in case.

 

With regard to getting into the show for free if you're exhibiting. Yes, of course we do, but we don't exactly get hours to go round the show to look at everything. We might get a few minutes to pop round to a couple of trade stands to grab some supplies, or the odd bargain, maybe 15-20 mins, to have a look at the layouts once things start to quieten down in the afternoons, but mostly you'll find us with our layouts, operating, once the show is open.

 

[Dungrange]

6 hours ago, Graham Heather said:

the layouts get reimbursed an equal amount according to how successful the exhibition was.  

Private layouts get to keep the whole amount, while clubs pocket the money with some expenses taken out.

 

The issue about being reimbursed according to how successful the show is, is the basis for our clubs attendance at Model Rail Scotland each year.  The organisers pay the guest layouts (ie principally non Scottish clubs and private layouts) expenses as per any other commercial show (accommodation, fuel and van hire).  Their costs will therefore be covered irrespective or whether or not the show is a success.  However, for all of the clubs that are members of the Association of Model Railway Societies in Scotland (AMRSS), we're reimbursed based on a formula that gives us a percentage of the profits once all the direct expenses (other than those incurred by the AMRSS clubs) have been paid out (hall hire, advertising, insurance, payments to guest exhibitors, etc).  If the show is successful, then we receive more money than it costs us to attend.  However, if the show is poorly attended for whatever reason, we might get nothing.  I don't think that we've ever got nothing, but sometimes the pay-out hasn't covered all the costs our members incur (eg accommodation, fuel and van hire).  However, the purpose of that arrangement is to spread the risk across around 30 clubs.  I doubt that there are many clubs with the resources to easily absorb a £10,000+ loss, but when that risk is spread over 30 clubs, who have a combined membership of 750+ members, it's not so scary.

[08221]

I've always considered exhibiting at an exhibition as another arm of my hobby and enjoy the interaction with visitors - hopefully they go away encouraged to get involved themselves!

 

Its always a nice time for me to play trains whilst in the company of like minded people. I don't charge expenses or anything, I pay for my own fuel, etc. and all costs come out of my hobby fund.

 

As long as I get fed and watered and a have good natter with visitors and fellow exhibitors, thats more than enough recompense for me.

Edited February 20 by 08221

[2E Sub Shed]

8 hours ago, Chris M said:

I.  Some layout exhibitors have tried to charge a lot on their expenses, for instance wanting 45p per mile for their car. If that happens they will not be invited again. Quite a few exhibition managers state a mileage rate which makes fuel costs clearer but I would often want less than that to cover my actual fuel costs.

 

The above arrangements seem to be quite equitable to me.

 

What do you base a mileage claim on ?, the Inland Revenue Business rate is 45p per mile for the first  10.000 miles.(and then 25p per mile over 10.000),  It is not just fuel but all the other costs that this payment is meant to cover. 

 

If people are using this figure in good faith due to  the lack of any guidance from the exhibition manager, then it may be unfair to be critical to them all. 

 

In my case, I have a vehicle from my employer with personal use permitted, and the only variable cost is fuel, so I am able to charge Inland Revenue Fuel only rate for it. 

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

What do you base a mileage claim on ?

 

Normally, how much fuel will be used, plus a few quid to cover fuel price rises. Many times, I came in under budget, making for a happy treasurer!

 

This seems normal, I understand almost every layout at Doncaster came in under budget too.

[ColinK]

2 hours ago, 08221 said:

I've always considered exhibiting at an exhibition as another arm of my hobby and enjoy the interaction with visitors - hopefully they go away encouraged to get involved themselves!

 

Its always a nice time for me to play trains whilst in the company of like minded people. I don't charge expenses or anything, I pay for my own fuel, etc. and all costs come out of my hobby fund.

 

As long as I get fed and watered and a have good natter with visitors and fellow exhibitors, thats more than enough recompense for me.

I totally agree. On the rare occasions I’ve had to stay overnight I’ve managed to find my own ‘free’ accommodation with friends. All I ask for is lunch and gallons of tea.

[298]

3 hours ago, 298 said:

There does seem to be an attitude that fuel expenses are there to be claimed, 

 

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

That's a pretty serious accusation.

 

In all my years exhibiting, I never over-claimed, and didn't know anyone else who was looking to rip off the organisers. Generally, we ended up out of pocket slightly.

 

 I must have been doing the wrong shows. I certainly never invited the wrong people though as none of that happened at any show I was involved with. And if it had, the layout owner would have found their invites dry up pretty quickly...

 

I'll rephrase that, obviously many people take a good stand on not claiming expenses, but I'm not associating those who might claim just for their petrol for a 100 mile round trip in the same breath as the extreme cases as mentioned in other threads on here where exhibitors have tried to pull a fast one because the show looked more successful. But there is a point at which someone is bothering to claim for just local miles, when the cost to them is negligible.

 

Still, I doubt the traders would be complaining, their takings must go up after exhibitors have been paid out...

[bbishop]

I just charge for fuel for the Yeti.  My operating team is fairly widespread, so my quote will also include their train fares.  Knowing Chris M will read this, the "profit" we made at Warley was spent on coffee and cakes on the way home.

 

A couple of other possibilities.  I would treat demonstrators in the same way as layouts.

 

I would provide a relevant society (ie model engineering or local line society) with a free table (plus tea/coffee) on the condition they only sell their own products (ie journal and monograph) and not compete with the second hand bookstall paying trade rates.

 

[fulton]

5 hours ago, fulton said:

also if it is a show I would have been visiting anyway I do not ask for all expenses as I am getting in for free, as well as free teas and a meal. 

Having looked at my post again, I realized that when I exhibited at Tonbridge last Saturday, I asked for modest expenses, but it was a show me and my mate would have visited anyway, so we saved £7 entry each, plus we would have paid for parking, fuel, cups of tea and a sandwich, so Colin I think I owe you money, if you invite me back next year with my new layout, there will be no expenses.

[arran]

HI All

 

Whats Legit to claim for  club shows .

 

Van hire If required

 

Fuel only EG what goes in the tank

 

They provide the hotel / B&B unless otherwise agreed , with Breakfast.

 

Meals through out the day are a luxury and if they offer them Fine but if not dont moan , Get a Tesco meal deal .

 

My club offers Free Tea and Coffee with Home baking at a nominal fee to cover costs But you do have to take into account is some places wont allow that  because of in-house catering.

 

A for Commercial shows !!!!

 

Fuel and some wear and tare on the car  of van if owned .

 

The rest is the same 

 

Regards Arran

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Graham Heather]

Thank you all the responses. It is certainly a very different situation to that here in Australia.

I will be attending both York and Birmingham exhibitions from next month, hoping to be impressed by the 

quality and variety of exhibitions. 
Here’s to a good beer or two as well.

Graham.

[Benjamin Brady]

I think what has been stated here is all correct. 

 

I agree with the comments that, we as a team are just happy to have the invites and enjoy the exhibiting. 

For some shows there is no need to charge expenses due to their cause such at Corris. A few from Alsager attend this show every year as it's an enjoyable weekend and a member has local accommodation. 

 

We have attended a show were we were only provided a bed and not breakfast but this was no hardship and we found a sutible cafe which all adds to the experiance. 

 

Also with experiance of running a show the free tea and coffee can soon mount up and it is a privilege to be offered this at shows. I always try and add something to the donation pot. On the tea and coffee side of things I've always wondered of a system similar to how we used to operate in the club would work. We used to charge 25p a cup for club nights. Now we always go away with four operators so each time we want a round it would only cost £1 realistically it is not going to cost a great deal over the weekend. 

 

All in all though we are lucky to have a layout that has been able to attend so many show and we are looking forward to more in the future 

[ELTEL]

2 hours ago, Graham Heather said:

Thank you all the responses. It is certainly a very different situation to that here in Australia.

I will be attending both York and Birmingham exhibitions from next month, hoping to be impressed by the 

quality and variety of exhibitions. 
Here’s to a good beer or two as well.

Graham.

Come and say hello when you visit the York Exhibition.

I will be there with my layout Oil Drum Lane 

Terry 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Graham Heather said:

Thank you all the responses. It is certainly a very different situation to that here in Australia.

I will be attending both York and Birmingham exhibitions from next month, hoping to be impressed by the 

quality and variety of exhibitions. 
Here’s to a good beer or two as well.

Graham.

 

Bloody hell, what are your expenses going to be?!!

 

Mike.

[Graham Heather]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Bloody hell, what are your expenses going to be?!!

 

Mike.

By the time I get to York, all my expenses will be prepaid except for the food and beer!

Hoping to enjoy the train exhibition. Cheers.

[Gilbert]

8 minutes ago, Graham Heather said:

By the time I get to York, all my expenses will be prepaid except for the food and beer!

Hoping to enjoy the train exhibition. Cheers.

You will - its a great show (in a great city) - we always book a few nights in York over the Easter weekend and I often visit on two days

ChrisH