“Down periscope!”

[Right Away]

Whilst trawling through some photos which I took in the early ‘80s, I was comparing Phase One and Phase Two 4CIG EMUs and noticed the latter’s motor brake coach was devoid of a guard’s periscope.

My questions are essentially:

1. Were Phase Two 4 CIGs not built with periscopes?

2. When was the decision taken to relieve Guards of the responsibility of providing “another pair of eyes” in preference to revenue collection duties?

In the past, where “incidents” have arisen, guards had been admonished/criticised by Inspectorate where it had been established they failed to assist a driver in signal sighting.

 

 

 

Edited February 20 by Right Away

[Michael Hodgson]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was going to about how to motorise the retracting stove pipe on the Titfield Thunderbolt!

[Nick C]

I don't think REPs, TC or VEPs had them either, at least not that I can see from flicking through a couple of books...

[giz]

Mid 60s built Mk 2 BFKs and BSOs didn't have them either. Not sure if late build Mk1s had them or not.

[Wickham Green too]

I'd GUESS they went about the same time as end steps went and climbing on the roof to clean the glass was verboten ............ they did have a sort of wiper - but not particularly effective.

[The Johnster]

Removal of the end steps was in connection with the Euston 25kv electrification scheme of the early 60s which increased the mileage of high-voltage cable considerably.  The red electrification warning flashes appeared at around the same time, somewhat ironically on the Southern Region where one imagined staff being fried by the third rail while looking upwards for the non-existent OLE...  Plenty of unrefubished mk1 brake vehicles around in the 80s that still had the aluminium trunking and the bottom mirror in situ.  The periscopes I believe originated on the LSWR, and were on the face of it a good idea, allowing a guard to keep an eye on his train, and the signals, without having to stick his nogging out the window, but they must have been next to impossible to keep clean in steam days.

[keefer]

Periscopes are covered in the Carriage Committee Minutes in the Parkin Mk1 Supplement.

IIRC most regions wanted rid of them as their unreliable mechanism was a constant maintenance issue but it was the SR that held out for them to be retained.

As has been mentioned, they did not feature on Mk2 vehicles.

Regarding EMUs, I don't know but should be easy to spot on pictures. REP/TC brake vehicles may show signs of plating over as these were conversions from l/h stock.

[Steamport Southport]

51 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Removal of the end steps was in connection with the Euston 25kv electrification scheme of the early 60s which increased the mileage of high-voltage cable considerably.  The red electrification warning flashes appeared at around the same time, somewhat ironically on the Southern Region where one imagined staff being fried by the third rail while looking upwards for the non-existent OLE...  Plenty of unrefubished mk1 brake vehicles around in the 80s that still had the aluminium trunking and the bottom mirror in situ.  The periscopes I believe originated on the LSWR, and were on the face of it a good idea, allowing a guard to keep an eye on his train, and the signals, without having to stick his nogging out the window, but they must have been next to impossible to keep clean in steam days.

 

Not quite. First appeared on the Eastern Region in the late 1950s. Some of the B17s got them even though many of them were gone by 1958 and were extinct by the end of 1960.

 

Here's Hull City in 1960.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p319746925/e4988c9d

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p319746925/e2b446f2

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The red electrification warning flashes appeared at around the same time, somewhat ironically on the Southern Region where one imagined staff being fried by the third rail while looking upwards for the non-existent OLE...

SR locos started to get them when some yards were provided with 750V overhead wires. At least 7 Bulleid pacifics were reported with them in mid 1960, as was an H class tank.

 

I think the instruction on removal of periscopes was effective from the end of 1963 when the reduced clearances to the wires were approved for use south of Rugby and in the Birmingham area. This was also the reason for banning certain classes of steam loco south of Crewe

Edited February 20 by TheSignalEngineer

[Right Away]

Thank you al for your replies.

[Wickham Green too]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... The periscopes I believe originated on the LSWR, ...

A wee bit later - some time in the thirties they started to appear on Southern electric stock and on loco-hauled when Mr.Bullied came along.

 

14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

... I think the instruction on removal of periscopes was effective from the end of 1963 ... This was also the reason for banning certain classes of steam loco south of Crewe

They could have painted a yellow diagonal on the guard's compartment, of course.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

A wee bit later - some time in the thirties they started to appear on Southern electric stock and on loco-hauled when Mr.Bullied came along.

Maunsell stock had duckets except on narrow bodied stock IIRC. The first SR stock picture that shows a periscope I can find in the Mike King book was the Bulleid 59ft all door sets.

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed - early non-gangwayed SR electrics and were fitted with duckets but the 1933/4 "Gondola" bogie goods brakes had " ... duckets ... recovered from electric suburban units that had been converted to periscope observation ..." ( Southern Wagons Vol.4 ) ...... but which particular units ??!?.

Needless to say the vast majority of photos are taken from ground level but it looks as it the wholesale fitting of periscopes began with the express and semi=fast units.