Was using the name Oliver Cromwell on a loco controversial at the time?

[pH]

45519 and 60110 are both supposed to have had their nameplates removed at times by shedmasters who disapproved.

[Edge]

I believe that the Britannia locomotives were simply named after prominent British persons/places/ and commonwealth institutions which were at  that time considered to be prominent and important to the history of Britain and they were almost all named after these themes, I don’t think it was any more complex than that - and it cannot be denied that Cromwell was important to British history.

Edited April 19 by Edge

[97406]

The April Fool from Rail Enthusiast magazine comes to mind. Names included “Boy George”, “Roland Rat” and “Arthur Scargill”, possibly all ‘earmarked’ for Class 31s. There was a veneer of credibility by the ‘joke’ application of “Railtour Enterprise” nameplates to a 31.

 

[Chris M]

I think its a shame that nowadays people spend so much time looking for faults with figures from the past. Oliver Cromwell would not have been controversial back in the 1950s because, even though we all knew there were a lot of issues with his time in power, he was still a very significant figure in English history and he was respected as such. These days it seems that when a famous figure is found to have done some bad things they sort of get deleted which is a shame.

[Chris M]

My favourite named loco was in the USA - Rock Island Line 4345 "Ivan the Terrible".

[97406]

4 minutes ago, Chris M said:

I think its a shame that nowadays people spend so much time looking for faults with figures from the past. Oliver Cromwell would not have been controversial back in the 1950s because, even though we all knew there were a lot of issues with his time in power, he was still a very significant figure in English history and he was respected as such. These days it seems that when a famous figure is found to have done some bad things they sort of get deleted which is a shame.

 

Not all do. Edward Colston for instance.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67370120

Edited April 19 by 97406

[johnofwessex]

42 minutes ago, 97406 said:

 

Not all do. Edward Colston for instance.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67370120

 

The position around Colston is complex but there was basically a Victorian 'Cult' built up around him partly I suggest with a view to keeping the lower orders quiet

[97406]

23 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

The position around Colston is complex but there was basically a Victorian 'Cult' built up around him partly I suggest with a view to keeping the lower orders quiet

 

It is interesting subject matter from a sociological perspective. I think it’s a good exhibit as-is as it shows changing attitudes through time. 

[johnofwessex]

5 hours ago, pH said:

45519 and 60110 are both supposed to have had their nameplates removed at times by shedmasters who disapproved.

 

 

Wasn't there a row when 60110 was used to haul a special for the WI?

 

Naming a modern train Lady Godiva with matching vinyl's anyone?

 

I'd be doing a Monsieur Alphonse (Undertaker from Allo Allo,)clutching my heart and keeling over

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

What about 6024 King Edward I

aka

'Longshanks'

and

"The Hammer of the Scots" 

also

invader and conqueror of The Welsh

and, amongst other things, responsible for 

the Edict of Expulsion, a royal decree issued on 18 July 1290 expelling all Jews from the Kingdom of England, the first time a European state is known to have permanently banned their presence.

Ironically, it was Oliver Cromwell who allowed them back.

Bernard

[PhilH]

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

I think its a shame that nowadays people spend so much time looking for faults with figures from the past. Oliver Cromwell would not have been controversial back in the 1950s because, even though we all knew there were a lot of issues with his time in power, he was still a very significant figure in English history and he was respected as such. These days it seems that when a famous figure is found to have done some bad things they sort of get deleted which is a shame.

Indeed. I think it's amazing that we have bred a generation of people who are so perfect all they seem to do is to look outside themselves to find fault with others. It often makes me wonder if it is to  divert attention away from their own shortcomings / imperfections/ peccadilloes or dark sides. For instance, it happens all the time in so called parliamentary debate!

 

John 8:7

[Oldddudders]

Most historical figures have some merit as well as any more famous demerits. As my German teacher, Dr Wolff - a Pole who also did work for the BBC Overseas Service - pointed out, even Hitler and the Nazis did one good thing - abolishing the Fraktur script that had been universal in Germany for centuries, while other European nations had long gone to a more 'modern' script. 

[Chris M]

21 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Most historical figures have some merit as well as any more famous demerits. As my German teacher, Dr Wolff - a Pole who also did work for the BBC Overseas Service - pointed out, even Hitler and the Nazis did one good thing - abolishing the Fraktur script that had been universal in Germany for centuries, while other European nations had long gone to a more 'modern' script. 

Its also said that Hitler made the trains  run on time but then we don't know how he achieved this.

[Legend]

The thing was , even if it was controversial , what did you do? Write a letter to the Times ? No internet back then .

 

I think in general people had other things to think about . Britain was still war scarred and I think austerity even rationing was still on the go .

Edited April 19 by Legend

[Andy Kirkham]

8 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

 

He got a sauce named after him instead. Ham with Cumberland sauce was a staple of P&O cooks (along with brown Windsor soup). 

 

Are you sure about the Brown Windsor? According to this account https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/victorian-brown-windsor-soup it is a myth, with no authenticated appearences on menus.

[jjb1970]

Just now, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Are you sure about the Brown Windsor? According to this account https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/victorian-brown-windsor-soup it is a myth, with no authenticated appearences on menus.

 

It was a regular on menu cards in P&O Containers.

[wombatofludham]

Whatever the merits or demerits of Cromwell to modern eyes, back in 1951 it would not have been seen as controversial.

In model terms, and going off at a tangent, when my family history research dug up a family connection that went back to the first Earl of Dudley who lived in the eponymous Castle, and another more plausible connection to Josiah Wedgwood, it gave me the impetus to rename two Heljan 86/2s after my old manor and Great x7 Uncle Joe.  Well, if you have your favourite class of loco with coathanger on the roof named with tenuous family connections you have to, don't you?  The same research also found a number of great uncles who were killed in the First World War so the plan is to get a Bachmann 45 named after the Staffordshire Regiment and the Heljan 45 named after the Sherwood Foresters which were two of the regiments they served in, as a small act of remembrance.

Fortunately I have no connection to Cromwell so I can dodge any controversy model wise.

[JeremyC]

2 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

The position around Colston is complex but there was basically a Victorian 'Cult' built up around him partly I suggest with a view to keeping the lower orders quiet

My view is that the issue about Colston was that when telling his story he was portrayed as a philanthropist and the bad bits of his story were carefully omitted.

[JeremyC]

22 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

 

Are you sure about the Brown Windsor? According to this account https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/victorian-brown-windsor-soup it is a myth, with no authenticated appearences on menus.

 

21 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

It was a regular on menu cards in P&O Containers.

IIRC it used to to appear on the menus on Denholm's ships.

[Southernman46]

1 hour ago, PhilH said:

Indeed. I think it's amazing that we have bred a generation of people who are so perfect all they seem to do is to look outside themselves to find fault with others. It often makes me wonder if it is to  divert attention away from their own shortcomings / imperfections/ peccadilloes or dark sides. For instance, it happens all the time in so called parliamentary debate!

 

John 8:7

Whilst basking (without consideration) in the relatively prosperous peaceful Country / society that all these past "Monsters" have created & maintained .............

 

The political past is a foreign country and should neither be apologised for  / or regretted - it happened - these idiots and apologists who insist on dragging it up for whatever purpose - need take the lessons from it and move on - unless their goal is to deliberately stir up trouble. Just my tuppence ha'pennyworth as an OWM (we know nothing and are the cause of all societies' evils apparently).

[pete_mcfarlane]

10 hours ago, Morello Cherry said:

 

That just isn't true. He was being criticised in the 1930s. Whatever you may think of them - Lloyd George's memoirs were 1936, Liddell Hart's was developing his critique from 1930 onwards.

Which is why I said 'mostly' to cover that earlier criticism. The real trashing of his reputation (with the wider public) came later on as part of the reappraisal of WW1 in the sixties ('The Donkeys' and so on). Otherwise he'd not have made the list of Britannia names ten years previously. 

 

9 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Look on the brightside, his fellow armoured war pioneer JFC Fuller was full on bat turd bonkers, but still had a few good ideas.

The irony with Fuller is that the Germans did read his book and listen to his ideas, as they'd never had to work with him. Proof that being right isn't enough to get your ideas adopted- you need to be right, and not have fallen out with everyone you need to convince. 

[Hibelroad]

I think it’s only recently that people have got very touchy about historical events. There was a famous statue of Cromwell outside Manchester Exchange station, I believe it was move to a park due to road layout changes. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

6 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I think it’s only recently that people have got very touchy about historical events.

You need to read some history! The non-stop argument over who should have the land of the Eastern Mediterranean littoral has at its origin an event in the late Bronze age.

11 hours ago, The Johnster said:

...the Iron Duke was Irish.

His opinion on the accident of the location of his birth differed. Something on the lines of 'Did our Lord's birth in a stable make him a donkey?'

[br2975]

Always worth remembering;

.

" The past is a foreign country, they do things different there "

.

L.P. Hartley.

[eastglosmog]

3 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

 

 

Wasn't there a row when 60110 was used to haul a special for the WI?

 

Naming a modern train Lady Godiva with matching vinyl's anyone?

 

I'd be doing a Monsieur Alphonse (Undertaker from Allo Allo,)clutching my heart and keeling over

Was naming a loco Lady Godiva any worse than the Southern naming one after that famous Arthurian adulterer Sir Lancelot? 🙂

Mind you my class at primary school was named Lancelot but they never expounded on that part of his character................