Operating? Does anyone try to run a realistic sequence?

[DCB]

I actually set aside an hour this evening for  a running session,  no maintenance allowed, which was curtailed by problems after about 35 minutes.
Ran an originating Up goods with a Crab,  Up through goods with an 8F 48475, . Terminating Down goods with Hagley Hall,  down through passenger with a Hymek,  Up  Passenger and Parcels  with 47XX blocking P1 for half an hour loading parcels,  Up XP with Devizes Castle. Down XP with Glos Rgt Castle stopping at P3 and  taking  Manobier Castle as pilot up bank, Pilot detached outside terminus to save platform space , Up Goods with 9F had caught the XP  Being held outside the station by East Box while the pilot was attached to the XP before stopping on the through road before taking 81XX banker up Bank.   14XX ran auto train down main line to Middleton Basset and return.  81XX and Tender first Manobier Castle returned coupled together, 81XX to Banker siding, Castle to MPD,     Hall goods shunted by 77XX Goods yard pilot and 77XX Down yard pilot to release Hall to loco spur,   77XX removed breakdown crane from road 2 to breakdown siding on Up side and return. 4566  carriage pilot came across to return brake van to Marshalling yard and return to Up side.  finally  Castle Sir Edward Elgar hauled Up XP from terminus which de railed on the upper lift out which has warped.   Working a bit like a one armed paper hanger, using 5 different controllers, often driving two train at once and two locos on one train off one controller I ended up with a lot of shunting to do and only 25% of the locos on the layout actually moved.   Despite being an oval no train went right round more than once.  Nothing ran on the branch as it was raining!   And this is DC  Just wondering how others operate

[Chris M]

I like running to a sequence at home; I find it adds to my enjoyment and time goes vey quickly. Its great to have a reason and a destination in my mind for each train. My layout is also an oval with 6 storage sidings in each direction and I run plain old DC. At exhibitions we don't run to the sequence - we tried it but it is too much like hard work especially when chatting to people. Instead we have one person for up trains and one for down. The very strict rules is only send each train round once if there is anyone watching - unless someone asks to see a train again. No shunting on this layout, just trains coming, going stopping and starting.

[young37215]

I'd suggest that the answer is determined by the style of a layout and how it works optimally for the individual. Personally I model real locations with trains following the working timetable which I find essential otherwise I end up with trains facing each other on a single track line! As Chris M says, there is purpose to the trains and an operating session for a single day can last several hours to complete. Mandatory trains require 2/3 rds of my fleet of locos allocating to services leaving several idle or available for conditional or additional services. I also like the fact that the WTT determines which train to move next rather than leaving me to decide.  

[ColinK]

I run my end to end layouts to sequences, including at exhibitions.  It gives a purpose to the operations and all the stock ends up where it started.  Two operators have to work together and it is very satisfying when you can go right through the sequence without having to ask the other operator questions.

[Oldddudders]

I suggest a good look at what happens here. 

 

 

[John Clitsome]

I run things in a sequence using a powerpoint system displayed on a monitor.

This at least ensures I don't end up with a manoeuvre blocking something else, and as others have said it also shows a purpose.

At the end of almost 100 moves everything on the layout will have moved at least once, and virtually all will have returned to the starting position again. I have yet to complete a full run through though!!

[Wheatley]

Yes, often with long interruptions. Portwilliam (BLT) has a basic timetable/sequence of three passenger and one goods train a day; when it was first built 30-odd years ago it was operated before and after school, now it gets run as and when I remember at weekends. If I'm going upstairs for something I might run the next move in the sequence while I'm up there. 

 

So far I've managed to avoid operating it while I'm working from home despite it being in my office/study. 

Edited April 28 by Wheatley

[Brinkly]

I'm sure Ian won't mind me posting this. I've been very fortunate to have been invited several times over to his lovely Dulverton P4 model railway. The layout is still very much a work in progress. However, Ian creates an operating sequence-based, I believe, on the working timetable with other 'extras' built in based on what stock visitors bring. 

 

 

Dulverton at the start of the sequence. The station can have several operators involved - a bobby operating the box, with a shunter (the roll can be doubled up) to assist with Alex Jackson couplings (theoretically, it is all hands-free). There are also two drivers responsible for 'up' and 'down' moves, respectively. A fifth operator manages the fiddle yard.  

 

 

Chris Lamacraft and Chris Mansell can be seen studying the sequence, which can be seen behind the cattle wagons. One was the signalman, and the other was the shunter (I believe I was driving). 

 

The fiddle yard. various loops and sidings for various destinations. There are also various controllers and mimic boards above the drawer unit to control the yard. 

 

 

Lines into the fiddle yard, with a headshunt to enable trains to be marshalled before departing. 

 

It is a very interesting layout to operate, and even with a relatively small amount of stock, it takes several hours to complete a basic sequence. I really enjoy the 'operating' focus that Ian has. It keeps everyone busy and engaged. Although, I imagine it wouldn't be for everyone. I know many people just like to make it up as they go along, which is also fine. 

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[woodenhead]

When I first became aware of model railways as a child my dad operated to a timetable, it was all written down and I learnt to follow it too.

 

For me aimlessly operating trains soon leads to boredom, I feel the timetable/operating sequence offers a purpose to the scene being modelled i.e. when you design a layout somewhere in your head is a reason for the station or sidings and that needs to be fitted in to the rest of the world in some way to justfiy the trains, the services etc so a timetable is a natural development of that.

 

I'm not playing trains at the moment and I think it's because I don't have a sequence, it's too random for me.

[DaveF]

I almost always run my O gauge branch line terminus to a timetable worked out from the times of real trains at what would have been the junction if the line existed.  Otherwise it can get boring.  The wagons movements are organised using playing cards.

 

I do have a timetable for my Swiss n gauge layout but as that has a continuous run I sometimes just run each train in turn from the hidden loops/sidings, depending on how much time I have.

 

In both cases derailments etc are quite rare.

 

David

Edited April 28 by DaveF

[DCB]

1 hour ago, DaveF said:

I almost always run my O gauge branch line terminus to a timetable worked out from the times of real trains at what would have been the junction if the line existed.  Otherwise it can get boring.  The wagons movements are organised using playing cards.

I do have a timetabel for my Swiss n gauge layout but as that has a continuous run I sometimes just run each train in turn from the hidden loops/sidings, depending on how much time I have.

In both cases derailments etc are quite rare.

 

David

I have often seen the playing card system mentioned but have never worked out how you relate a card to a wagon.
When I operate "Ugleigh" the BLT outside down the garden I leave the incoming train in the platform, then I pull out all the wagons which are in the sidings and need to be taken away,  back them on to the brake van then put the incoming wagons in the yard in the best available places for loading or unloading.  One or two will have arrived and need to return as the intermediate station(s) can only be shunted by down trains. Then the train departs hopefully before the passenger is due as the branch is one engine in steam.    What role do playing cards play? Deciding which ones go/stay?

[DaveF]

46 minutes ago, DCB said:

I have often seen the playing card system mentioned but have never worked out how you relate a card to a wagon.
When I operate "Ugleigh" the BLT outside down the garden I leave the incoming train in the platform, then I pull out all the wagons which are in the sidings and need to be taken away,  back them on to the brake van then put the incoming wagons in the yard in the best available places for loading or unloading.  One or two will have arrived and need to return as the intermediate station(s) can only be shunted by down trains. Then the train departs hopefully before the passenger is due as the branch is one engine in steam.    What role do playing cards play? Deciding which ones go/stay?

 

The first job is to work out what each card means.   For example it may be as simple as black cards leave on the train, red cards stay in the goods yard.  Then shuffle the cards, deal one for each wagon and make a note of what is to happen.

 

You can then refine it as needed.  You can also deal cards for the incoming wagons as to whether they go into the goods yard or are bound for elsewhere.

 

Mine ended up as :  Outgoing wagons to leave the station and factory : all suits 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 Ace, Joker

                                     Incoming wagons to go to the station: all suits: 8, hearts and diamonds 9 

                                     Incoming wagons to go to the factory siding: clubs and spades 9

 

This may seem odd but being a small 0 gauge terminus and with far more stock than I need I want to have about 8 wagons a day arriving and leaving.  There are usually 12 -14 wagons in the goods yard and factory siding.  On the stock shelves there are about 65 more wagons from to make up goods trains to go to the station.  So I simply deal a card for each wagon in the order they happen to be on the layout or the stock shelves and make a note of those wagons which will move.  Then I make up the incoming freight train from the wagons on the stock shelves which the cards tell me are to move.  Then run the train into the station and shunt the train and yard making sure the right wagons leave and the rest are in sensible places in the goods yard.

 

Over a period of time that means 8 to 9 wagons to come to the station and about the same to leave.  You can adjust what the cards mean with experience.

 

There are other ways of doing it but mine works for me and all I need is a pack of cards, a notecard on which to write down which wagons are to move and a pencil.

 

David

 

Edited April 28 by DaveF

[BR60103]

My friend Mike hosts operating sessions where Windermere is operated based on the actual timetable (I forget which year) modified so that movements occur much closer in time -- about 5 actual minutes apart.

Trains are sent out of Windermere to the rest of British Railways which is in the other room.  The actors come back portraying a train from a different origin but of the same class. A few goods trains are also brought in and shunted. 

general introduction and track diagrams

The update

 

Video presentation for N.A. modellers  The schedule used shows up at about 6 minutes in.

 

The layout works best with an operating team of 10 members.

 

I understand that when they started working out the timetable, one more train arrived at Windermere every day than left.

 

Edited April 29 by BR60103

[Barclay]

Freight/shunting only for me, but every wagon has an operating card which shows where it has to go. The cards are hung on appropriate hooks representing each destination.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Operating? Does anyone try to run a realistic sequence?

 

Why else would anyone build a layout? 

[t-b-g]

Buckingham has been run to a timetable/sequence for nearly 80 years now. We run it once a week for several hours. Originally it ran to a speeded up clock but my two operators and I all prefer running it as a sequence, as the times version has places where you are too busy to keep up without running things way over scale speeds and others when not much happens for a while.

 

I do think it adds greatly to the pleasure of operating. Everything has its place and a reason for happening and you have to plan ahead and get things into the right position for upcoming moves.

 

Peter Denny liked to throw in the odd "curved ball", so you will see an instruction to prepare a certain train for departure, then when you get to the card at the time for the train to leave, it will have "with horse box" added as a handwritten note. So it pays to check ahead to be not caught out.

 

The whole day comprises around 100 trains, plus shunting moves and as each session starts where the previous one ended, we always do a different section of the timetable, so even after 12 years of operating the same sequence, we never tire of it.

 

On Buckingham, it does work better if there are two or three operators, especially with the block bells and instruments but during Covid lockdown, I ran it myself and thoroughly enjoyed working it solo. I would prepare a train at one station, then walk the few feet across the room to the other to drive it round.

[Barclay]

38 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Operating? Does anyone try to run a realistic sequence?

 

Why else would anyone build a layout? 

I must admit that I don't operate all that often. It's the making of things that takes precedence for me.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

31 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

...Buckingham has been run to a timetable/sequence for nearly 80 years now.

It was inspirational on first reading of this lovely layout.

 

8 minutes ago, Barclay said:

...I don't operate all that often. It's the making of things that takes precedence for me.

Each to their own. It took me fifteen years to fully grasp that operation is absolutely 'where it's at' as the reason for having any model railway gear. If someone else will do the construction that's great.

 

A French friend many years ago gave me a name for my layouts:  'trainodrome'. There's the track formation per prototype layout, and ballasting in the on-scene sections because I like the noise it provides. Nothing else scenic provided, cannot form trains of buildings, shunt road vehicles or operate trees to timetable, etc. no point having them.

[Barclay]

11 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It was inspirational on first reading of this lovely layout.

 

Each to their own. It took me fifteen years to fully grasp that operation is absolutely 'where it's at' as the reason for having any model railway gear. If someone else will do the construction that's great.

 

A French friend many years ago gave me a name for my layouts:  'trainodrome'. There's the track formation per prototype layout, and ballasting in the on-scene sections because I like the noise it provides. Nothing else scenic provided, cannot form trains of buildings, shunt road vehicles or operate trees to timetable, etc. no point having them.

I think this illustrates what a broad church our hobby is !

[t-b-g]

20 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

It was inspirational on first reading of this lovely layout.

 

Buckingham was always my favourite layout, when it appeared in the press. My late father had a big collection of old magazines going back to the 1950s and anything with Buckingham in it was read and reread and the pages are well thumbed.

 

As far as the quality of the modelling is concerned, Peter Denny was well up there with the very best back in the 1940s. Over the years, standards have improved and there are many modellers who can build better locos, carriages, track etc. nowadays.

 

In terms of layout design and the sheer pleasure of sitting at the controls and running the layout, it is still the very best layout that I have ever encountered. The design and the way the operation of the layout is carried out is second to none, even to this day. It is so well balanced in terms of complexity and operational interest. Every aspect is "just enough but not too much".

 

Me having it now is like being in model railway "heaven".

[The Johnster]

Whilst I enjoyed building Cwmdimbath, and occasionally enjoy altering it a bit, the purpose of it in my mind is to provide a railway service to the colliery, businesses, and community of the village.  It is a real place, only small and in the 1950s.  Trains run as far as is practicable to the 1955 Rule Book, and to a working timetable & sequence based on (but not slavishly following) the actual 1960 WTT for the Abergwynfi Branch two valleys over.  On real 'traditional' railways, the traincrews liked to shunt and make movements in an established sequence even beyond the WTT, as it was proven to be the best way of going about the job and saved time in conferring with everybody involved, unless circumstances demanded that things proceeded 'off plan'

 

The timetable is to real time and the trains move at realistic speeds, and time is allowed for shunters on the ground to move about and 'catch up'.  It is governed by a battery analogue clock with an on/off switch, and the rule is that no movement takes place when the clock is switched off.  If there is dead time between trains and no shunting to do at the colliery, it can be advanced, but any movement must be in real time.  This is a huge part of my 'real but small and in the 1950s' philosophy, giving the movements a clear purpose and replicating the operation of real railways to a timetable; 'Once I built a railroad/made it run/made it race against time'. 

 

On real railways, the basic principle is that everybody wants to get on with the job so that they can have the next cup of tea (the fuel on which railways really run)/go home/up the pub, so there tend to be periods of apparently nothing happening (there is a seething mess of stuff going on out of sight of course) interspersed by intense action.  Not so intense that you kill someone, though.  Some movements, such as propelling wagons into private sidings where men not familiar with the niceties of railway work may be working on other wagons, take place under caution and slowly, otherwise the wagons can be banged about a bit.

 

Colliery clearances and delivery of empties revolves around a continual supply of empties that the colliery has no room to store on site, as if the supply runs out and coal cannot be chuted into wagon, the whole thing comes to a stop, and the men underground start complaining about their bonuses.  General merchandise on the pickup has to be positioned in the goods yard and private sidings, and mileage traffic may not be collected by the customer, who will be charged demurrage while the wagon/van is in everybody's way but that is still cheaper than paying to store the stuff himself, a common problem on the pre-Beeching railway where mileage rates were set by government.  All part and parcel of the challenge of making it 'race against time'. 

[The Johnster]

3 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Over the years, standards have improved and there are many modellers who can build better locos, carriages, track etc. nowadays.

 

 

There are some, but not many.  There are very many modellers who can open boxes of better locos, carriages, track, etc. nowadays, and some of us can improve them with extra details, weathering, passengers/loco crew, &c, and even build Comet/High Level &c chassis kits.

[wasdavetheroad]

I am well into implementing a timetable for my Scalesgill and Westhaven layout. Basically a single track branch line with station passing loop, small goods yard and a set of exchange sidings for the 'mineral line'. Westhaven is the fiddle yard with a altered track layout so I can add scenery and use it to add playability to the layout.

 

Scalesgill's timetable is a combination of a weekday timetable, with added excursion trains from the weekend and a couple of long through freights. I use a pack of cards numbered 1 to 19 with 2 'trains' per card. First train down passenger 6.30am and last train 20.45 up through goods. I just run the timetable in sequence and it takes more than one operating session to complete a day. 

 

Per day 

16 local passenger

2 Lakes Express

4 Excursion/convention specials

6 local goods with Scalegill shunt. Midday goods may be special, cattle, engineer, milk etc.

2 mineral line trip workings on main line

8 mineral line shunt moves

2 through goods

Westhaven shunt moves as needed

[t-b-g]

25 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

There are some, but not many.  There are very many modellers who can open boxes of better locos, carriages, track, etc. nowadays, and some of us can improve them with extra details, weathering, passengers/loco crew, &c, and even build Comet/High Level &c chassis kits.

 

You may well be right. Perhaps that are not enough people scratchbuilding things nowadays for there to be a "many".

 

I do know a number of people who do and all of them produce generally more accurate and better detailed models than Peter Denny did, although I still spot little details that he included that make me realise just how good he was. Many of his locos were produced from a drawing done from a photo and a known wheel diameter. How he got them as good as he did with the materials and information he had was remarkable. Nowadays,we have good access to drawings and published material that helps us get things right to a degree that he never could.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

31 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

On real railways, the basic principle is that everybody wants to get on with the job so that they can have the next cup of tea (the fuel on which railways really run)/go home/up the pub, so there tend to be periods of apparently nothing happening (there is a seething mess of stuff going on out of sight of course) interspersed by intense action. 

What impresses me in keeping up with scheduled operation, is how briskly the 'local' moves (inner sub terminus, two branchline with both passenger and freight,  goods yards on up and down side with tripping to rail served industries, loco shed for all the local work, had to be executed, around both the non-stop and stopping through traffic. It looked busy enough in reality (even though you couldn't see the whole scene) when I watched it, doubtless copious tea required.