Dapol OO 14XX and 517 Class 0-4-2Ts

[Dana Ashdown]

I have a couple of comments about Dapol 4S-517-001 No.539 that might be worth considering.

 

First, Dapol’s version of No.539 has square lamp sockets which, in the red-framed version, are wholly appropriate. However, since such sockets were superseded by brackets introduced in 1903, I doubt very much that sockets would have been retained on the engine much past 1906. Therefore, anyone contemplating repainting 539’s frames and wheels black will also have to replace the sockets with brackets. I presume that the other open cab version — 45-517-003 No.1158  — in plain green with black frames, will have brackets when produced.

 

Of course, an lined open cab 517 with black frames and lamp brackets would have been very popular. (It would have been my first choice, had it been offered, because it would have spanned the 1907-1914 period). And considering the 4800 Class release has ten variations compared to the 517’s five, one has to wonder why this option wasn’t included for the 517s.

 

My second comment regards the choice of engine number for the red-framed version. RTCS Volume 6, Four-Coupled Tank Engines, page F17, shows that 539 was not rebuilt with the longer 15 ft. 6 in. wheelbase until 1910 — well past the red-frame era. Of itself, the extra length (6 inches) should not be that noticeable. But, if I’m reading it correctly, the trailing axle of 539 probably retained inside bearings until then, and that is certainly obvious.

 

The CAD rendering of the open cab model with red frames has 832 on the number plate, which would be fine for this version since 832 was lengthened in 1897. And there are plenty of other alternative numbers to choose from. Hopefully the numbering issue will be dealt with before production begins; otherwise, replacing the number plates could resolve the matter for perceptive buyers.

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

My second comment regards the choice of engine number for the red-framed version. RTCS Volume 6, Four-Coupled Tank Engines, page F17, shows that 539 was not rebuilt with the longer 15 ft. 6 in. wheelbase until 1910 — well past the red-frame era. Of itself, the extra length (6 inches) should not be that noticeable. But, if I’m reading it correctly, the trailing axle of 539 probably retained inside bearings until then, and that is certainly obvious.

 

Assuming RCTS is correct, this is 1910 or post-1910, and this picture is included in the Jim Russell book, and is dated 1910, so presumably this pic is ex-works. The Russell book states this is 15' wheelbase.

 

Note the distinctly pre-1910 chimney! (I'm unsure about chimney transistion from skinny tall to fat midheight.)

 

 

Edited May 15 by Miss Prism

[Methuselah]

On 29/04/2024 at 13:04, coeurdelyon said:

Hello,

Regarding the 517 to go with our upcoming autocoach in Crimson Lake livery, product 4S-517-001 loco number 539 would be ideal

Thanks for your interest, Cheers

When will the Autocoach in Carmine be available...?

[Miss Prism]

Although not changing as frequently as the boilers on the Collett locos, there was a pool of topfeed boilers for some/many of the 517s (I'm not sure which boiler class, S or U, was involved). Here's open cab 1476 taking on water at Bath. Its bunker has some sideplates fitted (a type 62 in RCTS's classification). The extended coach footboard is most odd, but suggests an E25 or E45/F8.

 

Feels c 1924 to me, but I suppose could be a lot earlier. The loco was withdrawn in 1929.
 

 

[Edwardian]

13 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

I have a couple of comments about Dapol 4S-517-001 No.539 that might be worth considering.

 

First, Dapol’s version of No.539 has square lamp sockets which, in the red-framed version, are wholly appropriate. However, since such sockets were superseded by brackets introduced in 1903, I doubt very much that sockets would have been retained on the engine much past 1906. Therefore, anyone contemplating repainting 539’s frames and wheels black will also have to replace the sockets with brackets. I presume that the other open cab version — 45-517-003 No.1158  — in plain green with black frames, will have brackets when produced.

 

Of course, an lined open cab 517 with black frames and lamp brackets would have been very popular. (It would have been my first choice, had it been offered, because it would have spanned the 1907-1914 period). And considering the 4800 Class release has ten variations compared to the 517’s five, one has to wonder why this option wasn’t included for the 517s.

 

Quite so, and my first choice, too.

 

A lined, black-framed open-cab 517 would have been the best option IMHO, and the most useful; it would have been contemporaneous with three Kernow SRM liveries (1906, 1908 and 1912), many of those Rapido wagons in 1904 livery, and, for those willing to use generic coaches, the Hattons GW 4 and 6 wheelers, which exquisitely reproduce the 1906 garter livery IIRC.

 

It is a real shame to have ommitted the 1906-1914 period for non-auto-fitted 517s. 

 

Faced with the likelihood that 1158 will be unlined, I am faced with a choice between lining an unlined loco (and painting the dome) on one model, and changing lamp brackets on the other. I know which I think is the lesser of two evils!

 

 

13 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

My second comment regards the choice of engine number for the red-framed version. RTCS Volume 6, Four-Coupled Tank Engines, page F17, shows that 539 was not rebuilt with the longer 15 ft. 6 in. wheelbase until 1910 — well past the red-frame era. Of itself, the extra length (6 inches) should not be that noticeable. But, if I’m reading it correctly, the trailing axle of 539 probably retained inside bearings until then, and that is certainly obvious.

 

The CAD rendering of the open cab model with red frames has 832 on the number plate, which would be fine for this version since 832 was lengthened in 1897. And there are plenty of other alternative numbers to choose from. Hopefully the numbering issue will be dealt with before production begins; otherwise, replacing the number plates could resolve the matter for perceptive buyers.

 

12 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Assuming RCTS is correct, this is 1910 or post-1910, and this picture is included in the Jim Russell book, and is dated 1910, so presumably this pic is ex-works. The Russell book states this is 15' wheelbase.

 

Note the distinctly pre-1910 chimney! (I'm unsure about chimney transistion from skinny tall to fat midheight.)

 

 

 

It was only this morning, when contemplating pre-ordering, that I actually spotted that the loco number given in the product description for the red-frame version was not that on the graphic!  As I still cannot find my RCTS volume, I am grateful to you both for highlighting the problem!

 

That said, I would be reasonably likely to change identities anyhow. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gardenwall]

On 29/04/2024 at 20:36, Butler Henderson said:

but will they get the shade of green right - that on the 48xx/14xx looks weird already

I remember a visit to Didcot, whilst waiting for my wife who had gone to the toilet, by pacing a few steps I could see 14 locos around the yard and peeping out of the shed - and none of them were the same colour.

[Tim Dubya]

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Although not changing as frequently as the boilers on the Collett locos, there was a pool of topfeed boilers for some/many of the 517s (I'm not sure which boiler class, S or U, was involved). Here's open cab 1476 taking on water at Bath. Its bunker has some sideplates fitted (a type 62 in RCTS's classification). The extended coach footboard is most odd, but suggests an E25 or E45/F8.

 

Feels c 1924 to me, but I suppose could be a lot earlier. The loco was withdrawn in 1929.
 

 

 

Interesting photograph that I can't quite place.  Possibly the up platform with Railway Place? (now under the sorting office) behind.

 

Top stuff, thanks 👍

[Craigw]

13 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Although not changing as frequently as the boilers on the Collett locos, there was a pool of topfeed boilers for some/many of the 517s (I'm not sure which boiler class, S or U, was involved). Here's open cab 1476 taking on water at Bath. Its bunker has some sideplates fitted (a type 62 in RCTS's classification). The extended coach footboard is most odd, but suggests an E25 or E45/F8.

 

Feels c 1924 to me, but I suppose could be a lot earlier. The loco was withdrawn in 1929.
 

 

 

With a painted dome and safety valve cover, the loco is in Great War and post war condition. It still has the number plate in the centre of the tank and no Great Western. The coach looks to be in lake to me, so I reckon 1919 - 1924. Could be wartime though so maybe a bit earlier than 1919.

 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Interesting photograph that I can't quite place.  Possibly the up platform with Railway Place? (now under the sorting office) behind.

 

Top stuff, thanks 👍

Yes, the train must be in the up platform. 

It certainly can't be the other side, with those houses so near.

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Interesting photograph that I can't quite place.  Possibly the up platform with Railway Place? (now under the sorting office) behind.

 

Top stuff, thanks 👍

Definitely Bath - the bay is behind the Up platform at the east end and was the only (proper) bay there (the platform face  is still there but no longer has track as that was removed in 1967).  

 

What threw me for a moment was the handpoint lever but a quick check confirmed that there was a handpoint at that end of the middle sidings

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, gardenwall said:

I remember a visit to Didcot, whilst waiting for my wife who had gone to the toilet, by pacing a few steps I could see 14 locos around the yard and peeping out of the shed - and none of them were the same colour.

 

Colour fades. But a newly painted engine should be correct, as should any model that isn't being sold as a weathered version.

 

Some locos at Didcot haven't been repainted since they were last in steam and with some that is a very long time ago. 1983 in the case of 7808. That's at least forty years without a repaint. That's longer that it was a GWR or BR locomotive....

 

Even the tender is a different shade. Seems to me it's had a tender swap at one point.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/7808-cookham-manor/

 

 

 

Jason

Edited May 16 by Steamport Southport

[franciswilliamwebb]

4 hours ago, gardenwall said:

I remember a visit to Didcot, whilst waiting for my wife who had gone to the toilet, by pacing a few steps I could see 14 locos around the yard and peeping out of the shed - and none of them were the same colour.

 

Perhaps change her diet? 😇

[The Johnster]

Colour, even on freshly painted ex-works locos or coaches, is a slippery little fella to pin down exactly, never mind reproduce, and one can easily disappear in a puff of confused smoke up one's own fundament from trying to model it correctly.  Because:-

 

.One's perception of it is dependent on the ambient light.  The ambient light, outdoors, is predicated on weather conditions, reflected light from the surrounding area, and atmospheric pollution (not the least important factor around steam engines).

.One's perception of it is also dependent on the amount of the colour in one's field of vision.

.One's perception of it is also dependent on the finish, high gloss/semi-gloss/semi-matt/flat matt, and whether the surface is wet or dry.

.If one is looking at a painting or colour/colourised photograph, especially one dating from the Edwardian era, one is observing an artist's or a photographic printer's impression of the colour, which has been further compromised by whatever printing/reproduction process has been used in whatever publication one is using as refererence.

.Further to that, if one is referencing the image on a smartphone, tablet, or computer display, further compromises are incurred in the electronic processes and background to the screen, plus the ambient lighting in the room the screen is placed in. 

 

There are far too many and various variables variably variously affecting each other to ever manage more than an approximation, IMHO, and I am happy with my model liveries on an 'if it looks like my memory of it in real life under my layout lighting, that's fine by me' basis.  Anything else is tail-chasing and pointless, as I say IMHO, there are other HOs available, but mine works for me.  The weathering covers a multitude of sins anyway...

 

We do our best to get it right, manufacturers and modellers alike, and don't always succeed; remember Airfix's purple BR B sets?  At least they tried, which I think it is fair to say is more than Hornby were doing at that time...

Edited May 16 by The Johnster

[ChrisN]

20 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

I have a couple of comments about Dapol 4S-517-001 No.539 that might be worth considering.

 

First, Dapol’s version of No.539 has square lamp sockets which, in the red-framed version, are wholly appropriate. However, since such sockets were superseded by brackets introduced in 1903, I doubt very much that sockets would have been retained on the engine much past 1906. Therefore, anyone contemplating repainting 539’s frames and wheels black will also have to replace the sockets with brackets. I presume that the other open cab version — 45-517-003 No.1158  — in plain green with black frames, will have brackets when produced.

 

Of course, an lined open cab 517 with black frames and lamp brackets would have been very popular. (It would have been my first choice, had it been offered, because it would have spanned the 1907-1914 period). And considering the 4800 Class release has ten variations compared to the 517’s five, one has to wonder why this option wasn’t included for the 517s.

 

My second comment regards the choice of engine number for the red-framed version. RTCS Volume 6, Four-Coupled Tank Engines, page F17, shows that 539 was not rebuilt with the longer 15 ft. 6 in. wheelbase until 1910 — well past the red-frame era. Of itself, the extra length (6 inches) should not be that noticeable. But, if I’m reading it correctly, the trailing axle of 539 probably retained inside bearings until then, and that is certainly obvious.

 

The CAD rendering of the open cab model with red frames has 832 on the number plate, which would be fine for this version since 832 was lengthened in 1897. And there are plenty of other alternative numbers to choose from. Hopefully the numbering issue will be dealt with before production begins; otherwise, replacing the number plates could resolve the matter for perceptive buyers.

 

I had not seen the number change.  832 is a London Engine in the late 19th century and the 517s never got closer than Bala, so a little bit of reality stretching will have to happen.  If I take a 3/4 front end view the engine will not look as long anyway. 🙂

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

and the 517s never got closer than Bala

 

Closer to where?

 

[ChrisN]

31 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Closer to where?

 

 

Traeth Mawr, (Barmouth)

[Miss Prism]

Is 846 at Machynlleth close enough?

 

[Butler Henderson]

9 hours ago, gardenwall said:

I remember a visit to Didcot, whilst waiting for my wife who had gone to the toilet, by pacing a few steps I could see 14 locos around the yard and peeping out of the shed - and none of them were the same colour.

Too true - many years ago I visited Williamsons paint factory in Ripon and in the rception was a wall full of green colours; all were meant to be GW green but apparently nearly every time they offered the GW green they already had the preservatiuon society concerned wanted it changing. In model terms what Bachmann and Accurascale turn out looks pretty right to me and what Dapol and Hornby all too often offer is woeful (goes for BR green as well).

[Butler Henderson]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

We do our best to get it right, manufacturers and modellers alike, and don't always succeed; remember Airfix's purple BR B sets?  At least they tried, which I think it is fair to say is more than Hornby were doing at that time...

Many of Airfix's models needed a coat or varnish to lift them in colour

[ChrisN]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Is 846 at Machynlleth close enough?

 

 

 

Thank you.  Do you have a date for this?

[Methuselah]

     

     One for the experts here ;-

 

     I'm modelling Woofferton and the Tenbury Branch. As I know that 517's worked the branch, I'm naturally very pleased about Dapol's announcement.

 

     Attached are some images of what I take to be 517's at Tenbury. I say that advisedly, as the branch also ran Metro's at times, and in distant images, if I can't see the wheels/splashers, I find it hard to discriminate between the two classes - especially given the various variations within the two classes.

 

     These images from the early 1900's, show the loco's with polished domes and safety-valve covers.

1. Will the locos in the images therefore be lined green with indian red frames and splashers...or did the baremetal features extend into subsequent liveries, and if so, which ones...?
2. When did the GW start paining-over the polished brass etc...?
3. I'm presuming that the brown locos were only those that operated Autocoaches..?? 
4. Were some 517's eventually painted carmine - or have I misunderstood...?

     Any info'/guidance appreciated...😵‍💫

 

 

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, ChrisN said:

Thank you.  Do you have a date for this?

 

No. If I did I would have said. I guess early to mid-20s.

[Miss Prism]

1 hour ago, Methuselah said:

These images from the early 1900's, show the loco's with polished domes and safety-valve covers.

1. Will the locos in the images therefore be lined green with indian red frames and splashers...or did the baremetal features extend into subsequent liveries, and if so, which ones...?
2. When did the GW start paining-over the polished brass etc...?
3. I'm presuming that the brown locos were only those that operated Autocoaches..?? 
4. Were some 517's eventually painted carmine - or have I misunderstood...?

 

 

1. Those locos will be in lined green. The outer faces of the frames will be black. The hanging bars and wheels will be indian red or black, depending on date, and the splasher faces will be indian red or green, depending on date. The usual dividing line for the cessation of indian red is 1905/6.

2. Generally, polished boiler fittings began to disappear mid-WWI.

3. The brown 517s probably started off with brown autocoaches. How long they remained so is anyone's guess.

4. A few 517s were painted crimson lake c 1919, but it didn't last long. (And thus would not have appeared in your era.)

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Methuselah said:

     

     One for the experts here ;-

 

     I'm modelling Woofferton and the Tenbury Branch. As I know that 517's worked the branch, I'm naturally very pleased about Dapol's announcement.

 

     Attached are some images of what I take to be 517's at Tenbury. I say that advisedly, as the branch also ran Metro's at times, and in distant images, if I can't see the wheels/splashers, I find it hard to discriminate between the two classes - especially given the various variations within the two classes.

 

     These images from the early 1900's, show the loco's with polished domes and safety-valve covers.

1. Will the locos in the images therefore be lined green with indian red frames and splashers...or did the baremetal features extend into subsequent liveries, and if so, which ones...?
2. When did the GW start paining-over the polished brass etc...?
3. I'm presuming that the brown locos were only those that operated Autocoaches..?? 
4. Were some 517's eventually painted carmine - or have I misunderstood...?

     Any info'/guidance appreciated...😵‍💫

 

 

 

To add something to Miss Prism's answer, the division in the appeance of the class pre-Great War seems to represent the division in function that arose in the 1900s.

 

As a general rule, if you model a branch with conventional carriage stock, you will have an open cab 517 and it will be lined before WW1. Domes generally do not seem to have started to be painted over until 1906, though many will have lasted a lot longer.

 

However, from 1905, a number of the class were converted for auto-working. These seem to have received cab back sheets (years before the 'green' non-auto-fitted 517s) and be painted lined brown. Later some seem to have been painted lined lake, to match the 1912 carriage livery.

 

As your pictures, delightful, by the way, all show trains of conventional stock, the 517s will be lined green open-cab examples. 

 

 

 

 

[Methuselah]

58 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

1. Those locos will be in lined green. The outer faces of the frames will be black. The hanging bars and wheels will be indian red or black, depending on date, and the splasher faces will be indian red or green, depending on date. The usual dividing line for the cessation of indian red is 1905/6.

2. Generally, polished boiler fittings began to disappear mid-WWI.

3. The brown 517s probably started off with brown autocoaches. How long they remained so is anyone's guess.

4. A few 517s were painted crimson lake c 1919, but it didn't last long. (And thus would not have appeared in your era.)

 

 

 

Many thanks. It looks like I'll have to aim for around 1905 then, to keep the red frames etc. Here's 517 itself, I believe this is Worcester.