My experience at a recent exhibition

[Andymsa]

28 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Ok. Let's step back from the party politics of it.

absolutely agree, modelling is my escape from the grind of such things. 

[Danemouth]

I think it interesting that the first post at the moment has 92 likes friendy supportive- the highest I've seen on here.

 

What happened was truly appalling but I would agree with previous comments to let the club know privately what happened so that "lessons may be learned". hate that phrase but it fits this situation.

 

Best wishes to the OP

 

Dave

Edited May 12 by Danemouth
Correction and Friendly/supportive now 123

[Dungrange]

I think the decision not to 'name and shame' on a public forum is the correct one, however, I do agree with those who have suggested contacting the event organisers to make them aware. 

 

One of the things I've picked up from various internal company training sessions at work is the importance of notifying our Human Resource department if we see behaviour in the workplace (including work social nights) that is not in line with the company ethos.  My employer's attitude is that all forms of sexist / racist etc 'banter' is unacceptable, but of course its been stressed in such training sessions that the company can't take any action unless it knows about a problem.  Sometimes the person that is the butt of such comments may not complain whilst in employment, leave and then claim unfair dismissal due to sexual harassment or whatever and the only way to truly address such scenarios is to speak up: not just the victim, but preferably colleagues / line managers etc.  Thankfully I have to say, that I haven't witnessed any problematic behaviour at work.  

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

I think the decision not to 'name and shame' on a public forum is the correct one, however, I do agree with those who have suggested contacting the event organisers to make them aware. 

 

One of the things I've picked up from various internal company training sessions at work is the importance of notifying our Human Resource department if we see behaviour in the workplace (including work social nights) that is not in line with the company ethos.  My employer's attitude is that all forms of sexist / racist etc 'banter' is unacceptable, but of course its been stressed in such training sessions that the company can't take any action unless it knows about a problem.  Sometimes the person that is the butt of such comments may not complain whilst in employment, leave and then claim unfair dismissal due to sexual harassment or whatever and the only way to truly address such scenarios is to speak up: not just the victim, but preferably colleagues / line managers etc.  Thankfully I have to say, that I haven't witnessed any problematic behaviour at work.  

it’s a fine line between banter and offence, what is ok for one person can be an issue for another. unfortunately this has led to people complaining about the most trivial of things, railway mess rooms are a prime example. Human Resources love these type of things and work places have become soulless places to work as workers and fear the consequences of a lighthearted comment. I don’t condone racist comments but when you get headlines like train drivers are middle aged white males in the media isn’t this sexism or racism? Or discrimination in its self?

Edited May 11 by Andymsa

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Danemouth said:

I think it interesting that the first post at the moment has 92 likes - the highest I've seen on here.

Not likes but supportive.

[RichardT]

On 11/05/2024 at 21:11, Andymsa said:

it’s a fine line between banter and offence,

Hmm. In my not-so-restricted experience use of the word “banter” almost invariably means “I know full well I’m being offensive but I’m going to claim that it was all a joke if challenged.”  See also “I’m just breaking your balls”.

 

On 11/05/2024 at 21:11, Andymsa said:

when you get headlines like train drivers are middle aged white males in the media isn’t this racism? Or discrimination

No it isn’t. Only in the heads of - well, insert name of tabloid newspaper of your choice here.

 

On 11/05/2024 at 21:11, Andymsa said:

and work places have become soulless places to work as workers and fear the consequences of a lighthearted comment.

 

What’s that word which means the fittings on a gunwhale of a boat which serve as a fulcrum for the oars and help keep them in place?  Rhymes with that.

 

RT

Edited May 13 by RichardT

[PatC]

I've just read this thread for the first time. Oh dear, oh dear what an awful experience to have. That sort of attitude is vile. Please don't be put off by the behaviour of morons like that, they are a minority (I hope). This is a wonderful, creative hobby. Let's make it a welcoming one to everybody, regardless of race, faith, colour, gender or ability. There's more than enough horrible stuff going on in the world, we don't want any if it in our community.

[Andymsa]

16 minutes ago, RichardT said:

What’s that word which means the fitting on a gunwhale of a boat which serves as a fulcrum for an oar and helps keep it in place?  Rhymes with that.

 

RT

should I be offended 😂

[billbedford]

On 10/05/2024 at 21:28, ianmianmianm said:

At a recent show I was looking at a layout and the operator looked at me and said "these are trams, they run in the street in places like Croydon or Manchester". (I've lived in both). I smiled and asked a question about what chassis were being used. He looked back at me and said "they work from electricity in the rails which the motor in the tram collects". I tried again but got a very similar answer.

 

There are times when you have to pull rank and show that you know at least as much about the subject as the patronising b*stard you are talking to. Otherwise, you just set yourself up as a victim. 

[jjb1970]

The OP raised a very important issue, one which should be aired and considered by all of us. Their subsequent post addressed further points in a most dignified and measured manner, for which they deserve respect and appreciation. This is clearly a political issue, but it's not a party political one as racism exists across all political affiliations and groups. Linking it to a group or party is tempting but far too easy and would miss the issue. Ditto media, I see some media outlets which are beyond the pale, but frankly I see of objectionable stuff across the media. If there was an easy answer I'm guessing we'd have had it years ago, unfortunately ending prejudice and racism, and doing so in a way which doesn't just move the target or impinge on basic freedoms is not easy.

[Philou]

I was thinking about this overnight and wondered whether @ianmianmianm couldn't send via PM a message to @AY Mod giving the name of the club/organisers? At least Andy might know what to do with his numerous contacts - even if it's only a word in someone's ear.

 

I think it's an awful thing to have happened.

 

@ianmianmianm, don't be discouraged and enjoy the hobby.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, Philou said:

I was thinking about this overnight and wondered whether @ianmianmianm couldn't send via PM a message to @AY Mod giving the name of the club/organisers? At least Andy might know what to do with his numerous contacts - even if it's only a word in someone's ear.

 

I think it's an awful thing to have happened.

 

@ianmianmianm, don't be discouraged and enjoy the hobby.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

I was going to drop Ian a message in the week but if he wants to chat privately that's fine by me.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think there are two other underlying issues - why do so few ethnic minorities get involved in our hobby? And how can we reach out and pro-actively encourage their participation? 

 

They are a great untapped market to sell our hobby to - both as active participants and exhibition attendees.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Cwmtwrch]

15 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I think there are two other underlying issues - why do so few ethnic minorities get involved in our hobby? And how can we reach out and pro-actively encourage their participation? 

There are probably several answers to the first part, but one obvious one is that white railway modellers are a small minority of the white population, and other ethnicities are also small minorities in the general population. Even if the proportion of modellers in each ethnicity is the same [which it may not be] a small minority of a small minority is not going to be very visible. Also, railway modelling is a luxury available only to those who can afford it financially and have the necessary time available, and historically, and even now, immigrants of any origin and their descendants have usually had far more important matters to deal with.

 

Again, modellers here and elsewhere in Europe have grown up with a large national working railway system as a significant part of their lives, fairly commonly used for long-distance travel at least into the 1980s, but in Britain now that close connection has been almost entirely superceded by the motor car, so for younger generations there is no longer that personal link with railways, which is one of the aspects of concern when the future of the hobby is discussed. [It also has implications for preserved lines, of course.]

 

For the second part, my own view is that there is nothing we can sensibly do, beyond what we already do, to encourage ethnic minorities, or anyone else, to participate in modelling of any sort, as most [including most of the white population] probably will not be interested. What we must do, though, is  make sure we don't discourage anyone who does have an interest.

 

 

 

 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

6 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

Railway modelling is a luxury available only to those who can afford it financially and have the necessary time available, and historically, and even now, immigrants of any origin and their descendants have usually had far more important matters to deal with.

 

Again, modellers here and elsewhere in Europe have grown up with a large national working railway system as a significant part of their lives, fairly commonly used for long-distance travel at least into the 1980s, but in Britain now that close connection has been almost entirely superceded by the motor car, so for younger generations there is no longer that personal link with railways, which is one of the aspects of concern when the future of the hobby is discussed. [It also has implications for preserved lines, of course.]

 

 

I entirely agree with the above

 

10 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

There are probably several answers to the first part, but one obvious one is that white railway modellers are a small minority of the white population, and other ethnicities are also small minorities in the general population. Even if the proportion of modellers in each ethnicity is the same [which it may not be] a small minority of a small minority is not going to be very visible. 

 

I think that the proportion of modellers in non-white communities is very, very much smaller than in the white population - as you say, railways are not as ingrained in their cultures as it was in ours historically.

 

15 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

For the second part, my own view is that there is nothing we can sensibly do, beyond what we already do, to encourage ethnic minorities, or anyone else, to participate in modelling of any sort, as most [including most of the white population] probably will not be interested. What we must do, though, is  make sure we don't discourage anyone who does have an interest.

 

Well again, I see your point and agree with it in the main, but I think that we, the modelling community, need to realise that we cannot sell our hobby to many ethnic minorities at our exhibitions, because, generally speaking, these ethnic communities don't go to our exhibitions. Therefore, I think, we need to display our hobby in places where these other ethnic groups do go to. In that category I would list things like libraries, village/town fairs, shopping malls etc.

 

My club has invested in a promotional display which we can take to local school fetes etc and promote our hobby to a much wider audience and target market that we would ever engage with at a model railway show.

 

 

Of course we would be 'selling our hobby' to other demographics, not just non-white ethnic groups.

 

[AY Mod]

15 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

My club has invested in a promotional display which we can take to local school fetes etc and promote our hobby to a much wider audience and target market that we would ever engage with at a model railway show.

 

 

What a good idea.

[burgundy]

20 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I think that the proportion of modellers in non-white communities is very, very much smaller than in the white population - as you say, railways are not as ingrained in their cultures as it was in ours historically.

I would have thought that railways were pretty well ingrained in the cultures of the Indian sub-continent?

Best wishes 

Eric 

[pete_mcfarlane]

Hobbies are often something that run in families, you generally catch railway modelling off your Dad, Grandfather or Uncle. So the likely answer is that other cultures just don't do railway modelling because they have no history of doing it to hand down.  

[Dungrange]

13 hours ago, Andymsa said:

It’s a fine line between banter and offence

13 hours ago, RichardT said:

Hmm. In my not-so-restricted experience use of the word “banter” almost invariably means “I know full well I’m being offensive but I’m going to claim that it was all a joke if challenged.”  See also “I’m just breaking your balls”.

 

I agree with both of you, but lean much more strongly to the later.

 

13 hours ago, Andymsa said:

what is ok for one person can be an issue for another.

 

I hole-heartedly agree, but the question is where does the 'slippery slope' of accepting all forms of intolerance begin?  Racist attitudes isn't a problem that is restricted to white males, but since white Caucasians make up the largest demographic slice in British society, it's obviously more obvious among this group and it seems like they have a greater sense of entitlement to express their views out loud.   

 

If I were to express a racist (or any discriminatory) viewpoint to two individuals and one laughs and one takes offence, who decides whether my viewpoint is acceptable?  I could quite easily claim that since someone laughed, they share my opinion and therefore, since it's the majority opinion (among the three people involved) it's okay.  The person who took offence is in the minority, so they need to learn to be less sensitive, because obviously my opinion is acceptable to the majority.  Do you see the parallels with the original post?  Three people, two with racist views that they consider to be acceptable simply because they share the same opinion.

 

The only way to really address all forms of intolerance is to take the opposite viewpoint that if one person is offended, then it's unacceptable behaviour.

 

There are groups of people at whom the term 'institutionally racist' is sometimes levied.  Lets imagine a bigger group of people.  The number laughing at my racist (or discriminatory) viewpoint may be higher and lets say that no-one seems to be offended.  Does that mean it's okay?

 

Let's say it's one of my white male colleagues who's being racist / sexist.  I'm not the butt of the joke, so don't personally take offence.  My colleague, whether they be female or a person of colour might not seem offended, but deep down they may be.  At what point to you decide that such behaviour should be challenged?  Failure to speak up when you should is what can lead to toxic workplace cultures.

 

16 hours ago, Andymsa said:

when you get headlines like train drivers are middle aged white males in the media isn’t this sexism or racism? Or discrimination in its self?

 

Not if it's simply a statement of fact.  Of course journalists, like the rest of society, will have bigots, racists and sexists among their ranks.  If a particular publication's articles contain unacceptable prejudices, don't spend money on them.

[ianmianmianm]

3 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I think there are two other underlying issues - why do so few ethnic minorities get involved in our hobby? And how can we reach out and pro-actively encourage their participation? 

 

They are a great untapped market to sell our hobby to - both as active participants and exhibition attendees.

 

 

 

 

I can certainly echo some of the responses to this and have seen this as an expat. The hobby internationally does correspond with a link between modelling and a relationship to the real thing. There was one model shop on Malta, and a very small club, because the railway was not part of life for many growing up; those that do partake are often eithe expats or Maltese who have lived away for a while (as many do for university or early career). In Bermuda and Grand Cayman, there was no interest in modelling, the former hasn't had a railway for 80 years and the latter never had one. There were 5 modellers in Bermuda, all of us either Brits, Canadians or from the US.    

 

Where I find some divergence is the question about your exposure to railways being related to childhood and experience. Railways were a huge part of my childhood as I had a BR parent so we got the 16 free PRIV days every year and a 75% discount on tickets on the 349 days were weren;'t using our pass. Effectively that meant that holidays were done by train. Many railway families have come into the hobby, as have a good few railway workers too. But bearing in mind the railway staffing establishment, and especially in London, was built on ethnic labour, that transition or correlation hasn't transferred across.   

 

What can we do about it?? Well perhaps any of those from manufacturers, retail etc on the forum might be able to get something together (which I am happy to help with). Dawn Quest did an interesting video recently about feamle modellers. Perhaps there's an industry role in this, and of course if they get it right then there is more sales to be had.

 

On the orignal topic - @AY Mod Andy no need to reach out to me this week. I've taken the points on board and will make a decision as to whether to contact the club in question.

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

A horrible thing to experience @ianmianmianm; I'm a middle-aged, middle-class white bloke and if I'd overheard such things I would have felt extremely angry; it would have wound me up for the rest of the day.  I can only begin to imagine how you must have felt.  For what it's worth I think the way you've handled the whole situation has been admirable.

 

@TEAMYAKIMA shows an excellent example; if you want people from a broader range of the population to take an interest in your organisation, you have to take the hobby to them.  Sitting at "home" and complaining that no new people are joining - and this applies as much to bringing in young people as it does women or other enthnicities - is the route to a long, slow journey to oblivion.

[BR traction instructor]

A monthly scale modelling open evening can be a more attractive title to more people and emphasises that model railways aren't only about trains. Most villages/towns etc have parish magazines/notice boards that can be a free or cheap way to advertise and help get new local faces through the door.

 

BeRTIe

Edited May 12 by BR traction instructor

[PaulRhB]

8 hours ago, ianmianmianm said:

I can certainly echo some of the responses to this and have seen this as an expat. The hobby internationally does correspond with a link between modelling and a relationship to the real thing. There was one model shop on Malta, and a very small club, because the railway was not part of life for many growing up; those that do partake are often eithe expats or Maltese who have lived away for a while (as many do for university or early career). In Bermuda and Grand Cayman, there was no interest in modelling, the former hasn't had a railway for 80 years and the latter never had one. There were 5 modellers in Bermuda, all of us either Brits, Canadians or from the US.    

 

Where I find some divergence is the question about your exposure to railways being related to childhood and experience. Railways were a huge part of my childhood as I had a BR parent so we got the 16 free PRIV days every year and a 75% discount on tickets on the 349 days were weren;'t using our pass. Effectively that meant that holidays were done by train. Many railway families have come into the hobby, as have a good few railway workers too. But bearing in mind the railway staffing establishment, and especially in London, was built on ethnic labour, that transition or correlation hasn't transferred across.   

 

What can we do about it?? Well perhaps any of those from manufacturers, retail etc on the forum might be able to get something together (which I am happy to help with). Dawn Quest did an interesting video recently about feamle modellers. Perhaps there's an industry role in this, and of course if they get it right then there is more sales to be had.

 

On the orignal topic - @AY Mod Andy no need to reach out to me this week. I've taken the points on board and will make a decision as to whether to contact the club in question.

 

 

 

It’s so refreshing to see the measured responses you’ve made after such a rude and pathetic experience. I hope the focus this inevitably creates on those two is outbalanced by many more positive contacts over layouts. 
 

[melmerby]

19 hours ago, burgundy said:

I would have thought that railways were pretty well ingrained in the cultures of the Indian sub-continent?

Best wishes 

Eric 

Working on the railway is considered a privilege that many aspire to and it tends to run in families.

[jjb1970]

The argument changes if we talk about other countries, as minority groups change. I am currently an ethnic minority in a country where I suspect most railway modellers are from minority groups.

 

Railway modelling is a huge hobby in Japan where lots of Japanese are obsessed with trains. It's a growing hobby in China and there's an emerging hobby in Indonesia. These are just countries I know,  I am sure there will be other examples. Brazil is a very multi-ethnic country and Frateschi goes back many decades.

 

However, we're not talking about minorities as raised in the OP.