In search of icons

[great northern]

First thing to make clear. This is not a wish list. Please read this post carefully, and respond accordingly. I have cleared this topic with Andy, but if it is misused it is likrly to be locked pretty quickly.

 

This is what is intended. We have recently seen the production or announcement of a number of locos which would have been unimaginable not long ago. What have they in common? As I see it they have an appeal that transcends personal preference, or for example choice of region or period. It's that "got to have one" feeling. I reckon that the following have fitted into this category:- (and there are others)

 

Prototype Deltic

City of Truro

S& D 2.8.0

Blue Pullman

 

It's clear that people are buying, or will buy these because they have some special appeal. "Wow" factor is rather overworked, but it's nevertheless a fair way of describing it. We should be trying to help the manufacturers identify these things. It's not necessarily just locos either, there is iconic rolling stock too, Pullman observation car for example.

 

So, what other icons are there? It's not limited by manufacturer, nor by steam or diesel/electric preference. What else is there that a lot of us just could not resist?

 

But please, not just "I want one", or even " I can't see why no-one has produced a ....." or " I'd buy several". Has it got special appeal? If so, why? We've seen recently that properly argued and realistic approaches can work, so let's have another go!

[298]

89001, Never really saw it's full potential and should have been the first of many locos of a type the WCML needed- a CoCo. Plus it's lead a bit of a charmed existance, having never really been threatened with scrapping and is currently being assessed for yet another return to the mainline.

[Guest Max Stafford]

CR 903 'Cardean' - the Iconic big Scottish passenger engine.

 

Dave.

[Andy Y]

A lot of the iconic 'middle ground' seems to have been staked out but I've stopped to question what makes something railway related iconic, most frequently it's something innovative, record breaking or stylish and holds a wider appeal than to just modellers. Once the newsreel hoggers have been cleared down it's a little more difficult to polish one's crystal ball with clarity.

 

Maybe some that could take the shelf appeal in model shops, museums and the wider market are the APT-E (polished aluminium and futuristic styling), APT-P as the rail-borne equivalent of the TSR2, the prototype HST as a record holder. Moving beyond that I don't think the 'named train' pack has been as well tackled as it could and there's mileage in that.

 

Winding the clock further back there's plenty of colourful pre-grouping appeal; Stirling Single, Hardwicke, Rocket, Gladstone.The icons are as likely to appeal to collectors as they are modellers so pkenty of colour, interesting liveries and preferably names take preference.

 

Beyond our normal loco-centric thinking there's the capacity for iconic structures, Skaledale St. Pancras Midland hotel anyone? Scenecraft Royal Albert Bridge?

[martin_wynne]

© George Gastin, Creative Commons 3.0

[Ramrig]

A lot of the iconic 'middle ground' seems to have been staked out but I've stopped to question what makes something railway related iconic, most

Beyond our normal loco-centric thinking there's the capacity for iconic structures, Skaledale St. Pancras Midland hotel anyone? Scenecraft Royal Albert Bridge?

 

So you've had a tip off about the Skalecraft future release of the Forth Rail Bridge in 'OO' ............................................................... Now that would be impressive and would require a very large box

 

Edit - If my maths is correct this would be over 33 metres long in 00

[Ramrig]

Snap

[Dagworth]

I'm very surprised that the class 76 has not been mentioned yet. Woodhead has a mythology now at least as strong as the BP. Maybe it doesn't fit here as OT have announced it?

 

Andi

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect what anyone regards as iconic will be conditioned to at least some extent but where there interest, and thus knowledge, lies. For instance many enthusiasts of several generations ago with an interest in the GWR regarded the broad gauge 'Lord of The Isles' as the final icon of the broad gauge, and its history helped in that.

 

My railway interest covers an extremely broad church and, mainly, elements from 3 continents and I would go along with most of what has already been offered. But my short list Would I think be - the Great Northern Railway somersault signal, 'Lord Of The Isles' from the GWR, a Churchward 'Saint in original condition, the L&Y 2-4-2 tank, 'Cardean', and - in my view - the most iconic of them all, Gresley's A4.

[Ozexpatriate]

I don't think the 'named train' pack has been as well tackled as it could and there's mileage in that.

I agree.

 

There has been a lot of activity here in the US in the last several years to market correct formations of "iconic" trains. Though cars in a given train will be on a common chassis, multiple outlines are required to build coach formations. Relevant cars include details like the antennas for the on-board telephones. These products seem to be commercially successful.

Examples off the top of my head include the locomotive-hauled trains:

• AT&SF Super Chief (being reissued)
  
• CB&Q/DRGW/WP California Zephyr
  
• NYC 20th Century Limited
  
• GN Empire Builder
  
• MILW Hiawatha
  
• PRR Broadway Limited (new)
  

and custom revolutionary multiple-unit sets (the Blue Pullman and APT would fit here):

• CB&Q Pioneer Zephyr
  
• UP M-10001
  
• CN Turbotrain
  
• Aerotrain

I understand that the US market and the UK market are different in size (and to some extent taste) but it seems to me there would be interest in iconic UK trains. Examples at the top of my list would be accurate formations for:

• LNER Coronation set (we've seen many garter blue A4s, but never - in RTR - the train they were painted to haul; the beaver tail observation car seems reason enough)
  
• LNER Silver Jubilee set (not the knock-offs using silver painted regular coaches, but legitimate models of the articulated set)
  
• LNER dynamometer car (so along with a reduced Silver Jubilee set, all those Mallards have something to do)
  
• LMSR Coronation Scot (to match the streamlined Princess Coronation; from memory only a BTK and CK were offered)
  
• SR Brighton Belle 5BEL in volume pricing (I'm not offering a review of the current model - I've not seen it)

 

I state these without being an LNER or LMS modeller. No, these don't suit a shunting plank, but they will run on a decent roundy roundy - so long as they don't try to stop at the station.

 

I'm diverging off topic a bit but we seem to be on the brink of a philosopical change with non-Mk1 coach models in the UK. The old days were dominated by offering only a CK and BTK with some kind of catering vehicle if you're lucky - not quite sufficient to make even a compressed formation. This isn't confined just to pre-gouping. Building anything like a representative HST formation in RTR isn't easy.

 

Hornby have been very successful with the Maunsells and they appear to be selling as many of the new Bournemouth Belle train packs that they can make. Let's hope such coach diversity continues.

 

Incidentally, the "iconic" trains in the US are not usually marketed as a single train pack. Generally they are released one coach at a time - usually one per month or so, as each different outline is manufactured. The multiple units are usually sold as a head-end, tail-end plus center car with optional extra center cars to make a full formation - a bit like the old Hornby/Triang Blue Pullman. Obviously this depends on the variety of cars in the formation.

[Ozexpatriate]

There's plenty of colourful pre-grouping appeal; Stirling Single, Hardwicke, Rocket, Gladstone.The icons are as likely to appeal to collectors as they are modellers so pkenty of colour, interesting liveries and preferably names take preference.

The Stirling Single and Hardwicke very much meet the definition of "iconic". It's easy to imagine a "Race to the North" pack with both of them.

 

But my short list Would I think be - the Great Northern Railway somersault signal, 'Lord Of The Isles' from the GWR, a Churchward 'Saint in original condition, the L&Y 2-4-2 tank, 'Cardean', and - in my view - the most iconic of them all, Gresley's A4.

Yes I find Churchward's Saint (and I'll add the Star as well) to be very iconic - and set the pattern to a whole generation of steam locomotives in the 20's and 30's in Swindon and Crewe/Derby. I add them to the wishlist polls every year, but while they attain middling votes, they don't score near the top.

[Ozexpatriate]

People will purchase something they percieve to be "iconic" irrespective of it being impractical.

 

In one crazy impulse buy, I once purchased a bundle of a book about the first US transcontinental railroad along with H0 models of CP No. 60 (Jupiter) and UP No. 119. They are on a display stand facing each other like this picture of the last spike ceremony in Promontory Summit, Utah.

 

And the book was really good. Most memorable were the anecdotes about the CP's use of nitroglycerin and the difficulty in transporting it. A scary time to live back then.

[Bloodnok]

What have they in common? As I see it they have an appeal that transcends personal preference, or for example choice of region or period. It's that "got to have one" feeling.

 

So something that can make modellers behave like collectors, buying one because they want one, not because a current or future layout project needs one to represent the area/time correctly.

 

It's got to be something that in railway terms (if not in model terms!) is unusual. A striking visual appearance helps (not necessarily all sleek and streamlined - could be more along the lines of "Oh my, look at all the pipework on that). Could also be a groundbreaking design in terms of capability or functionality. There are a number of ways for trains (not necessarily locos!) to become iconic.

 

Prototype Deltic

 

One offs and prototypes can be iconic very easily. They are by their nature very rare, often in unusual liveries or colour schemes, or with design features that are unique.

DP1 (Deltic) is a classic case of this - looks striking in that blue. Also a groundbreaking design. Kestrel warrants inclusion as well - I know I bought mine without a thought about using it on an actual layout, I just wanted one. 89001. Turbomotive. APT-E (as a full four car set). Bulleid Leader. NER no 13 (EE1). Any of these would tug at me in a way I'd have to respond to. I'd also be tempted by a Gresley W1 'hush-hush' in original condition and maybe a 'Fury' as well. Also warranting inclusion here is the prototype HST and possibly also the Duke of Gloucester - I can see these as appealing in the same way, even if I think I could resist

 

City of Truro

This is a subtly different use of the category - famous examples of production classes. Not iconic because the class is particularly special (it might also be, but that's not the point here) but iconic because that specific loco did something special. I'd add Flying Scotsman, Mallard and Evening star along the same lines. I'm not quite sure whether 'Rocket' can be considered a member of a class (IIRC several were built after it won the rainhill trials, but improvements had been made to the design?) but it probably belongs in this company too.

 

S&D 2.8.0

Now we're talking actual loco classes rather than individual locos.

 

I personally wouldn't include the 2.8.0s mentioned - they don't hit the right 'iconic' buttons to make me want to buy one without having an S&D layout. I would include something like the Gresley P2s though - I can definitely see the appeal there. A streamlined Coronation might sit well here too. The NER's other electrics (the two ES1s and the ten EF1s) would also fit nicely in this category. I could be persuaded the EM2s should be in this category as well.

 

Blue Pullman

 

... now that hits the right buttons. Add APT-P and Brighton Belle to that list. And I bought a Kato Eurostar for reasons that tick the right boxes (no plan for a layout it can run on at the time or since...) so for me at least, that one qualifies too...

[Taigatrommel]

One that springs to mind immediately for me is "Lion". No, not the prototype BRCW diesel, but the Liverpool & Manchester loco, famous to many as the Titfield Thunderbolt. It might even sell more as Thunderbolt than Lion...

 

On the subject of trains rather than locomotives, I think in many cases these are more iconic than the locomotives that hauled them. Any given train could form a collectors' series of its forms through the ages, for instance, the Golden Arrow with a Lord Nelson, Bulleid Pacific and a 71 as traction with various generations of pullmans. Or even the Flying Scotsman, for all it's confused with the preserved A3, could form a good series. I'm sure there are others. It's also funny where icons lead to other things. My German outline modelling was spurred from the mis-remembered cover of the Ladybird book of trains, which has a Swiss/Dutch Trans Europ Express diesel unit on, a powerful image which stayed in my mind for years.

[Mikkel]

The single-drivers do seem to meet the requirements. Apart from the Stirling Single and Hardwicke mentioned above, there's also the Midland Spinner.

 

As for their market potential, the sales of the Dean Single might give a pointer (although the GWR factor also has a role to play there of course). I don't know how well these sold?

[coachmann]

Iconic?

 

Midland Compound, a red spot that became a rash on the LMS.

 

'Cock 'o The North' 2-8-2's, sheer LNER magnificence.

 

GWR 'Star', forerunner of every modern 4-6-0.

 

GNR large 'Atlantic', laying the foundations for wide firebox East Coast power and faster trains.

 

 

Larry

[Ian J.]

How about the GWR 'The Great Bear'? A one off that I think most of us modellers and railway hobbyists know about (if not the general public), though of course it didn't last that long in 4-6-2 formation.

 

I'd also second 'Duke of Gloucester', but in its current improved form, rather than it's original BR operation. Certainly it seems to be something of an iconic preservation item today.

 

As for an iconic class, I'd count the LB&SCR A1/A1X Terriers. Their diminutive size and lasting so long into BR service and their presence in preservation (plus the use of 'Stepney' in one of the Rev Awdry's books) seem to have given them appeal much beyond that small size. I'd buy several if a high quality one was made (but that's a drum I've been beating for a while now).

[Allegheny1600]

Fascinating topic and i agree with much of what has been said previously.

I note that the Europeans have also done rather well with marketing versions of their iconic trains,

Germanys famous "Rhinegold",

France's "Mistral" and so forth.

What about an iconic freight train? Trix in Germany have done the "Lange Heinreich" or "Long Henry" - a well known iron ore train! Expensive indeed at about £240 for the initial pack of 12 wagons (phew!!) but worth it as it is such a magnificent train!

So,

We could have an interesting, well known and long lived iron ore train of our own from the North East or possibly from S. Wales? Both of these trains needed 'Power' to shift them and were accorded suitably impressive motive power, so IMHO are well worth modelling.

We also have a couple of other possibilities with the ICI limestone trains from the Peak Forest - they ran for about 60 years if memory serves with, over the years, a lot of different motive power. Then there is the 'Condor' of course but i don't know enough about it to comment!

I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone market a £200+ "train pack" in the UK but could we stand a £100 box of wagons, in a smaller box? Loco NOT included, of course!

Surely a pack of 4 - 6 wagons would be a seller?

Or am i completely barking and these trains are not iconic at all - to other people?

Cheers,

John E.

[2ManySpams]

Judging by the Kernow pre-sales I would say that the Beattie Well Tank fits the 'iconic' bill. Totally impractical for most of the country apart from Wadebridge to Wenford (in the condition modelled) and i can't beleive all the sales are for 100s of clay branch layouts being built as a result. This can only mean folk are buying it because it's something special / different and 'iconic' regardless of what they actually need / model. Now that's the loco but an iconic train would be a BWT, a half dozen clay wagons and a brake van.

 

Bit of a curved ball but does Thomas the Tank Engine (plus Anne and Clarabel) meet the requirements to be an iconic train? Widely recognised and loved by many - even though it's a fictional character. (Mind you i always preferred Ivor the Engine...)

 

Forth bridge does it for me too - now that is a curved ball!

[Allegheny1600]

Thinking along rather more conventional lines(!),

How about the following,

MR's "Big Bertha" the famous 0-10-0 Lickey banker,

another 0-10-0 the GE "Decapod" (what a name!),

the LMS & LNER 'Garratts' and,

literally any of the 'Atlantics' from the pre-group era.

Cheers,

John E.

 

P.s. Definately NOT a wish list but at least one of the above would have the "must have that in my collection"!

[RedgateModels]

DP1 (Deltic) is a classic case of this - looks striking in that blue. Also a groundbreaking design. Kestrel warrants inclusion as well - I know I bought mine without a thought about using it on an actual layout, I just wanted one. 89001. Turbomotive. APT-E (as a full four car set). Bulleid Leader. NER no 13 (EE1). Any of these would tug at me in a way I'd have to respond to. I'd also be tempted by a Gresley W1 'hush-hush' in original condition and maybe a 'Fury' as well. Also warranting inclusion here is the prototype HST and possibly also the Duke of Gloucester - I can see these as appealing in the same way, even if I think I could resist

 

Can't really add to that, most of those would loosen my wallet should they come out (as did Kestrel). Of course none of them would look right on Summat Colliery

[coachmann]

To most modellers an LMS Beyer Garratt would be as useful as a one legged man at an ass kicking party, but as a model with its length and articulation, who could resist this iconic beast sitting in the window of your local model shop? It would be the British equivalent of buying a Challenger or a Big Boy.

[LH&JC]

I would argue for Lion (the L&M one although the later Lion is pretty iconic) Lion survived long after almost all other L&M locos, Rocket just surviving. Then Lion was restored for the LMS, used in a film. (forgotten which one) Then she became even more famous after starring in the Titfield Thunderbolt, ran on the main line in the 1980's. If only she was working nowadays!

 

And also the later Lion if only for being white in a filthy environment.

[Adams442T]

LT&SR 442T No80, "Thundersley" in original condition would look superb with todays standards of livery application.

 

Plus a relatively simple change of dome, chimney & smokebox would give 'Tilbury Tanks' in BR and LMS eras too.

 

Perhaps not iconic but the No1 class were the first 442 tanks in the UK (and possibly the world?)

[S500-W9]

Moving a little east, IMHO one of the most iconic trains are the original Japanese Series 0 shinkansens. Probably the first 'proper' volume-built high-speed trains way back in 1964. The nose is instantly recognisable, and has been used on signs and literature for many years.

 

I think (and I may be wrong here) it's only recently that the Series 700s (the duck nose ones!) have started taking over on the publicity material.

 

Rob