Increased traffic at Lincoln

[chriswright03]

For those on here that know Lincoln and I know there are a few. Yet again this has reared it's ugly head here complaints about the length of time the crossing barriers are down across the High Street causing traffic mayhem. Talk of the crossing being closed for 40 mintes every hour by 2013. Thing is there are ways around it and there really isn't much need to drive through the centre of a busy City these days with Park and Ride and by passes.

 

I accept that there is a need for pedestrians to be able to carry on without delay and once upon a time there was a footbridge but of course that does not take into account wheelchair users as we must these days.

 

There are complaints about the emergency services being delayed but the Fire Station is situated in such a place that it can access this part of the High Street from other directions just as easily. Likewise the Ambulance Service these days have crews sat in vehicles on standby at strategic points to cut down on traveling times. Bus services I know suffer from the delays but once again alternative routes could be found.

 

There is the added problem that one of the alternative routes is also split by a crossing which will be closed at the same time.

 

I suppose it is a sign of our times that if it does not suit us we moan about it and do not stop to consider the real alternative. Without this freight being carried on the rail network the increase in road traffic would be unthinkable.

 

As they are talking about the crossing being closed for so long surely it is not beyond wit of man to come up with a sensible plan to suit all. Money is tight for businesses but I would have expected that Network Rail along with the Government and Local Council assistance to be capable of curing this age old problem once and for all. We seem quite happy to spend millions dualling roads to move a bottle neck three miles further up the road but when it comes to railways any expense seems to be too much.

 

Interesting to hear others views on this as long as we keep clear of politics.

 

Chris

[Glorious NSE]

1. Shut the high street road crossing permanently.

 

2. Add a footbridge that crosses the railway line and the road between the station and town centre improving access for pedestrians between all three bits which at present are hampered by road traffic.

 

Job done?

[beast66606]

As Martyn says a footbridge would solve most pedestrian problems but with todays legislation and requirements for wheelchairs I can't see that happening, maybe a one way system could solve some of the highway issues ?

I think those who choose to drive should be inconvenienced rather than rail (there are alternate routes as Chris has said so it is not vital that they drive over that particular crossing), 40 mins per hour is probably extreme to say the least, freight could be held so two cross at once (during the day) or they cross with a passenger (for example).

 

I suspect it will come to money and that will be the major problem, sadly.

[Allegheny1600]

1. Shut the high street road crossing permanently.

 

2. Add a footbridge that crosses the railway line and the road between the station and town centre improving access for pedestrians between all three bits which at present are hampered by road traffic.

 

Job done?

 

Seconded.

.

Inevitably there will be complaints about closing a road for the sake of a railway line - what about all the hundreds of minor roads that have been cut in two by bypasses, dual carriageways and motorways over the past 50 years?

Roads can be diverted easily - not so with railways, i'm afraid.

Other than that, whats the (real) problem?

Cheers,

John E.

[Talltim]

A footbridge need not have steps, although ramps do take more room

[Guest stuartp]

It sounds like the council are making the case for not chopping their proposed £20m link road.

 

They closed the main road over the crossing in the middle of Barnsley (more or less, I think a couple of buses still have access) but only once the second part of the relief road was finished and they could re-route all the town centre traffic.

[Glorious NSE]

I would think if you've closed the road then you should have enough space to build a footbridge with ramps or lifts - if it's still a problem then CP a couple of the buildings adjacent which seem to have been designed in the "nuclear bunker" school of architecture (see Jessops and Superdrug on google streetview) and build the walkway in conjunction with something a bit nicer looking as their replacement?

 

I've only been there once, but from my memories of that and looking at Google there are already permanent road bridges to a decent standard either side.

 

The one to the East might benefit from linking in to the high street if they do want such a diversionary route (like an "inner ring road effectively) that close-in - looking at Google then maybe linking Ropewalk, St Marks, Tentercroft and Kesteven in to each other (at least for bus traffic) would be a (relatively) low cost alternative?

 

I share Beast's thought that it's not likely to be a goer under the current climate, but councils are allowed to do things like long term planning to get things set up for when they do have the money to make it happen!

[Edwin_m]

Here (scroll to page 2) is the plan for the ring road - IIRC it destroys some of the remains of St Marks station, but more to the point it allows the high street to be pedestrianised. As Stuart points out, this will cost money...

[Glorious NSE]

Interestingly pretty much what i'd said!

 

Don't see why it would destroy anything, it just links the end of the existing Tentercroft St with Kesteven St across some waste ground (old coal yard?) - take a look at it on Google.

 

(EDIT - looking closer it uses some land North of Kesteven St which currently has a garage on it)

 

Don't see why that neccesarily needs to be hugely expensive either, it's about 100 yards of new road - changes to some of the existing junctions could be done as-needed, pedestrianising the bit of the high st doesn't initially need to be any more costly than plopping some bollards either end stopping cars from going down there.

 

Do the job, solve the problem and make it look pretty when you have the money?

[pete_mcfarlane]

Be sure to read the comments at the bottom of the article. As usual there are some gems from the less bright members of society:

 

I don't understand how this city allows a rail service to bisect it through the shopping area and a large university.

Perhaps because they weren't there 150 years ago when the railway was built?

 

And from one of the local councillors (who seems to have a slightly shaky grasp of written English):

Personally, I think it is time for us the residents of this city to get together and get a petition together and start telling Network Rail what we actually want, not what they want as every time they seem to hide behind their railways act all the time.

A petition. That will show them!

 

Interestingly, not one of them seems to have spotted the real cause of these problems. Lincoln used to have a north-south avoiding line that would have taken the freight traffic away from the High Street. BR closed it in the early 1980s.

[chriswright03]

Some interesting views there. Having looked at Page 2 of the proposed diversion it would seem to work. It does not affect the St Marks shopping centre (previously the Midland Railway Station) and uses mainly roads that are already there. It would solve the problem of course but without doubt that would not suit someone else. Martyn, yes it was the old coal yard.

 

Pete yes there was a perfectly good avoidance line in the 60s and 70s that went right past my school at the time. We were able to see loads of steam loco's towed away to Barry or elsewhere to be scrapped. Had that stayed open it would have been ideal. Why they scrapped it in the first place I could never understand. Maybe at that time there just wasn't the freight to justify it's continued existence and certainly not the foresight to see what lay ahead.

 

I don't visit Lincoln that often now as I work in Grimsby but when I am there on the High Street without fail there is always a barrier closure. I believe since the track relaying and new signals the freight can pass there at a higher speed than they used to but of course even then 30 tankers takes quite a while to go through.

 

I also can not recall why they removed the footbridge in the first place. Probably in need of repair and no money. As the gates were replaced with barriers there was less room anyway so maybe that was it.

 

I can understand how frustrating it must be for motorists and pedestrians alike but the point is it needn't be. Motorists don't have to use it at all and only do as a rat run really. Pedestrians have little choice without a much further walk but if the road were closed to traffic a solution could be found for them be it a bridge or underpass.

 

 

Chris

[Ravenser]

1. The Lincoln Avoiding Line would be the real solution . This , after all , is exactly why the GN &GE built the thing in the first place. Part of the alignment was used for the connection between West Holmes and the Lincoln/Nottingham line which allowed St Marks to be closed. Unfortunately I think the alignment south of that point has been removed, with an industrial estate across the site , and embankments and bridges removed

 

 

2. I don't think severing Lincoln High St is a starter. It is after all the bottom end of the High St , and that means what it says , in a city of 100,000. And with due respect to Pete Macfarlene, the shopping was there first, by about 800 odd years - the tower of the church next to that level crossing is late Saxon, and there was an extramural suburb there prior to the Norman Conquest. However pedestrianisation, or limitation to buses etc is not out of the question - High St from Stonebow downto the roundabout before the railway has been pedestrian since the early 70s

 

a footbridge would be a sensible modest cost solution. And if they can put lifts into the footbridge at Central station, they could presumably do the same with a footbridge 200 yards further west

[pete_mcfarlane]

And with due respect to Pete Macfarlene, the shopping was there first, by about 800 odd years - the tower of the church next to that level crossing is late Saxon, and there was an extramural suburb there prior to the Norman Conquest.

I hear what you are saying - I was more having a dig at the silly attitude shown by some of the good folk of Lincoln towards the presence of the railway in their city centre. It's a very nice little church as well.

 

 

 

 

I think this issue sums up the bizarre attitude to transport in the UK.

 

The problems are blamed on more trains. Nowhere is it mentioned that an increase in the number of cars might in some way be to blame for the massive tail backs at the crossing - it's just assumed that it's the railway's fault.

 

Or to put it another way - people are moaning because they have to sit at a red light waiting for a train to cross. How is this delay any different from having to sit for ages at a red light at a set of crossroads, or waiting ages at a roundabout?

[The Stationmaster]

The opening price for a footbridge will be around £1 million and it will probably be a lot more in this case as it would appear to an area quite heavily used by pedestrians. At present local authorities are not even allowed to start planning projects like that or even talk publicly about the possibility that they might have such an idea in their heads if there is any indication that such an idea represents a 'proposal'.

 

So doing a lot of talking is in reality all about seeking a place in the queue for any monbey should it become available and lining up someone else to blame if any road schemes are cancelled.

[Welly]

I have difficulty in understanding why people moan about being held up at the High Street crossing when there is a perfectly good road bridge over the Brayford - I myself find it easier to use that bridge to get to the south end of the High Street. Also If I was going from Hykeham, I would have gone over Pelham Bridge.

 

Having said that, I do favour the East West road link along Tentercroft Street despite my piano school being in one of the buildings that will be partly demolished by the road work.

 

The High Street LC topic is a perennial pet peeve of the local rag and of course the web comments are full of the usual suspects sounding off!

[PaulCheffus]

For those on here that know Lincoln and I know there are a few. Yet again this has reared it's ugly head here complaints about the length of time the crossing barriers are down across the High Street causing traffic mayhem. Talk of the crossing being closed for 40 mintes every hour by 2013. Thing is there are ways around it and there really isn't much need to drive through the centre of a busy City these days with Park and Ride and by passes.

 

I accept that there is a need for pedestrians to be able to carry on without delay and once upon a time there was a footbridge but of course that does not take into account wheelchair users as we must these days.

 

There are complaints about the emergency services being delayed but the Fire Station is situated in such a place that it can access this part of the High Street from other directions just as easily. Likewise the Ambulance Service these days have crews sat in vehicles on standby at strategic points to cut down on traveling times. Bus services I know suffer from the delays but once again alternative routes could be found.

 

There is the added problem that one of the alternative routes is also split by a crossing which will be closed at the same time.

 

I suppose it is a sign of our times that if it does not suit us we moan about it and do not stop to consider the real alternative. Without this freight being carried on the rail network the increase in road traffic would be unthinkable.

 

As they are talking about the crossing being closed for so long surely it is not beyond wit of man to come up with a sensible plan to suit all. Money is tight for businesses but I would have expected that Network Rail along with the Government and Local Council assistance to be capable of curing this age old problem once and for all. We seem quite happy to spend millions dualling roads to move a bottle neck three miles further up the road but when it comes to railways any expense seems to be too much.

 

Interesting to hear others views on this as long as we keep clear of politics.

 

Chris

 

Hi

 

They should never have closed the avoiding line in the 80s then this wouldn't be an issue as all the freight could have gone that way.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Richard E]

The problem will be money - rail costs roughly 7 times as much per km as motorway and road is used at about 3.5 times the capacity thus making rail up to 25 times dearer than a new road per passenger km. Network Rail is already cancelling or delaying projects as there is no money in the budget for the work - they can afford routine maintenance but major capital projects are a no no for some time to come yet.

[Edwin_m]

Interested in your source for those figures Richard. Road schemes have not been immune from cost escalation, indeed

Roger Ford did an interesting comparison of the Trent Valley 4-tracking with the widening of the M6.

 

Anyway what does this have to do with Lincoln, where there is no question of building either motorways or new rail lines as far as I can tell.

[Richard E]

Granted those figures are historic but both will have risen. The main source is Transport Watch (http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sheet-7.htm) but a bit from Hansard as well.

 

Perhaps I have taken a bit out of context but there was reference to dualling roads but a reluctance to spend anything on railways. Along with that there was, I think, mention of trying to reinstate an avoiding line although I also see the existing alignment cannot be used.

 

The bottom line (sic) is that there is little if any spare cash floating around in Network Rail for any projects at present - I have a reliable source for that as well

 

Edit - forgot to add that dual carriageway is dearer than motorway

[Edwin_m]

I think that given Lincoln have this road scheme on the table there is no question of the avoiding line being reinstated. I'm aware of an example elsewhere where the council has discouraged Network Rail spending money to improve things on a busy level crossing because this would worsen the case for a council road scheme that would (amongst other things) eliminate the crossing entirely. There is then the potential that the money NR would have spent could go into the pot for the larger scheme.

 

Going by the aerial photography, most of the former avoiding line is built over in any case.

[Edwin_m]

The main source is Transport Watch

 

I would treat this source with a very large pinch of salt. They are basically a road version of Railfuture - possibly if you split the difference between the claims of these two bodies you might get somewhere near the truth!

 

I had a conversation with Paul Withrington a few years back about his ideas to convert railways into coachways. It was very quickly clear to me that his conversions would be very much less safe than either his claims or the present record of the railways. I explained my logic to him, he said it was interesting but as far as I know he is still pushing the same ideas.

[Welly]

http://thelincolnite.co.uk/2012/03/lincoln-lawyer-possible-legal-fix-for-lincoln-barrier-crossing-delays/

 

Before anyone gets excited, look at the name of the EU commissioner in the article!

[The Stationmaster]

http://thelincolnite...rossing-delays/

 

Before anyone gets excited, look at the name of the EU commissioner in the article!

 

Presumably it's not p[ossible to post to that site on a Sunday ... ...

[andyman7]

Interestingly, not one of them seems to have spotted the real cause of these problems. Lincoln used to have a north-south avoiding line that would have taken the freight traffic away from the High Street. BR closed it in the early 1980s.

Pete yes there was a perfectly good avoidance line in the 60s and 70s that went right past my school at the time. We were able to see loads of steam loco's towed away to Barry or elsewhere to be scrapped. Had that stayed open it would have been ideal. Why they scrapped it in the first place I could never understand. Maybe at that time there just wasn't the freight to justify it's continued existence and certainly not the foresight to see what lay ahead.

1. The Lincoln Avoiding Line would be the real solution . This , after all , is exactly why the GN &GE built the thing in the first place. Part of the alignment was used for the connection between West Holmes and the Lincoln/Nottingham line which allowed St Marks to be closed. Unfortunately I think the alignment south of that point has been removed, with an industrial estate across the site , and embankments and bridges removed

 

Whilst I can understand why BR may have wanted to close the avoiding line in the 1980s, it is the unseemly haste with which the entire formation was obliterated that makes reinstatement virtually impossible. The local authority would have had full control over planning issues and could have safequarded the trackbed, so unsurprisingly I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever with all the Mr Toads toot-tooting away in frustration now that the level crossing spends so much of its time in the closed position - it was sheer bloody short sightedness!

[LNERGE]

There have been plans drawn for replacing High St crossing with a bridge. They may have been drawn by the LNER. I'll see if i can locate them.

 

Edit.. The plans were drawn up by a local solicitor sometime around 1935/39 as a proposal to ease congestion. It would have involved demolishing a hotel and would have been barely wide enough for two cars. One side would have required a 90 degree bend and the 180.