Unidentified location

[melmoth]

Can't check any books as I am away from home but it is reminiscent of the Bridport Branch - Toller maybe?

 

It is definitely not Toller - which was on a fairly straight section of line - or indeed anywhere else on the Bridport branch.

[Jamie]

If one trawls the Railbrit website photographs of Carstairs, a similar bufferstop can be seen at the end of a siding holding snowploughs - so possibly not as unusual as (I certainly) thought.

[The Stationmaster]

Can't check any books as I am away from home but it is reminiscent of the Bridport Branch - Toller maybe?

Very limited resemblance the only common factor being the presence of timber in the station building - just about everything else is not Toller.

[PhilJ W]

I have found this website, at the bottom of the laser image you can see the site of railway station.

http://www.forestry....try/infd-7cfmv4

[Guest stuartp]

The crane, the pole with the brace, the station chimney and the shed on the end of the platformin the Ebay picture all agree with the picture in post#58.

 

The position of the bufferstop, the pole with the brace and station chimney here also agree with the picture in post#58. It’s a real pity that the photographer didn’t include a bit more of the view to the left – possibly containing that really unusual bufferstop?

 

One big problem is that the signalbox doesn’t show up in the picture in post#58. However, I wonder if the structure that does show in the correct position in the photo is actually the box in a further state of demolition than is shown in the Ebay picture.

 

I'm inclined to agree that it's Wilsontown, especially having seen Jamie's Carstairs pic. The buffers match exactly the smaller of the two in the mystery pic. Crucially the layout of doors/windows/posters on the station building is just discernable on the Ebay pic, and matches the OP. They certainly don't match the earliest pic yet we know both of those are Wilsontown so clearly this is the replacement building. The LMS built LNWR-pattern boxes in Scotland so there's no reason why the replacement building should respect the original pattern.

 

There's a photo of Wilsontown in CJ Gammell's Scottish Branch Lines 1955-65 which only shows the box (and a Caley 0-6-0). It's dated January 1962, the box is intact, the line is fully signalled and there is still a loop. The line closed to goods in 1964 but the photo caption mentions that it remained open for a colliery for some time after that. I think, therefore, that the grainy thing at the end of the platform visible on the OP is indeed the remains of the box, it appears to have fallen down /been demolished piecemeal with the upper framing still there when the railtour visited but gone by the time of the Ebay pic. The OP therefore shows the layout post-1962, possibly post-1964 with the line still in use by the colliery.

[Kenton]

I think the picture in the OP is reversed, the picture in post#58 is the right way round, and that the location is Wilsontown.

 

I still strongly disagree.

For a start the geography of Wilsontown does not look anything like the OP unless big hills move !

Secondly the curve of the platform is nowhere near as sharp in the two linked photos of Wilsontown as in the OP.

Thirdly I come back to the building which is nothing like the one in the OP - and even though I could accept that the building in the OP might have been a replacement - I am yet to even see anything like it on any Caley station.

 

 

BTW looking at my OS maps of Wilsontown for 1911 also shows the station to be on a very shallow bend a loop line running through the station. There was a loco serving point consisting of a siding off the loop at the east end on the north side of the station which was on the south side of the loop. There were 2 other sidings on the south side of the station. Both of these sidings passing behind the signal box which was not on the platform but a few yards beyond it. The most southerly of these sidings terminated in a Goods shed probably about half the length of the station. The other siding had a crane positioned on its north side well before the station hut/building. All of this is in agreement with the photo linked to above and completely at odds with the OP.

 

IF that ebay photo is also Wilsontown then where is the Goods shed?

[PhilJ W]

I at first had my doubts about Wilsontown but having found the information on the Forestry Commission website I am now convinced that it is. The fact that the curve in the track seems to be sharper could be put down to the focal length of the camera. From that website it also appears that the 'farmhouse' is in fact a pub, and is the only remaining building on the site although now a ruin.

An ironworks was built on the site after the discovery of coal in the area the mid 1700's. Wilsontown was created to accommodate the workers and at its peak had a population of over 2000. Eventually the Iron ore ran out and the Ironworks closed and was demolished during the 1820/30's. The photograph probably dates from the time of the closure of the mine in 1955 when the sidings were lifted, the passenger service ceased in 1951.

[Guest stuartp]

The photograph probably dates from the time of the closure of the mine in 1955 when the sidings were lifted, the passenger service ceased in 1951.

The loop was still there in 1962 (CJ Gammell pic which I can't post), it would run roughly through the 'deva' inscription on the Ebay pic. <BR><BR>Wilsontown pit closed in 1955 but production continued at Kingshill No.2 (to the west of Wilsontown) until 1975 according to the Forestry Commission site. The line continued west towards Kingshill No.2 if scotlandsplaces.gov.uk have stuck their interactive map pins in the right places.

[Jamie]

Well to my eyes we have a match for

- the relative positions of signal box (remains), hut and A-frame telegraph pole,

- the hedge along the LHS (including the step back or break in said hedgeline in mid-distance)

- the crane including supporting structure

- the style of bufferstops (not Wilsontown but in the near vicinity)

- the background topography, allowing for the lack of clarity.

 

What we don't see is the goods shed, or a matching station building. I could believe in a replacement building either to a more modern style or secondhand (c.f. Barrhill signalbox), and with the dropping population the goods shed would seem redundant by the time of the OP's picture.

 

Interestingly the ebay shot of the signalbox shows a colour 'border' along the signalbox base which is similar to that on the OP's shot of the station. I would normally have expected no such border, most likely white/cream panelling with brown framing. So that could be another indication.

 

I wonder what chance there is of a similar, modern view from public land?

[Flood]

Congratulations to those people able to see the photo link in my last post, I'll repost it here in non invisible ink for everyone else.

 

http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=436513&ppid=1122&image=341966855&images=341966855&formats=0&format=0

 

Please note that the platform edging matches the OP picture.

 

I think the OP picture is the reversed version and the order of photos is:

 

1)The station with run-round loop and old buildings

2)The railtour with the signal box starting to be removed (the roof has gone)

3)The photo posted above with more of the signal box missing

4)The OP picture reversed with the cladding having been removed from the section below the windows of the signal box

 

As far as I can tell the hills in the background of photos 1) and 4) are exactly the same, the farm can only be viewed in one photo due to where the other pictures were taken from and the Good Shed had been demolished long before the photo of the railtour let alone the other two photos.

[Guest stuartp]

Congratulations to Kenton and Trisonic for being able to see the photo link in my last post, I'll repost it here in non invisible ink for everyone else.

 

We can see it Flood, it's the one being referred to as 'the Ebay photo'. To my eye it matches the OP, you've convinced me.

[Flood]

We can see it Flood, it's the one being referred to as 'the Ebay photo'. To my eye it matches the OP, you've convinced me.

Sorry Stuart, I noticed your previous comment too late and I've now changed my last post.

[Jamie]

Absolutely Stuart, and perhaps I also should have given it a full title. It ticks the last box to convince me.

[PhilJ W]

 

I wonder what chance there is of a similar, modern view from public land?

I think the laser/computer generated view in post #79 above is the best that you will get. I tried on Google Earth but all that was visible is an open field! The laser view was created by measuring all the 'lumps and bumps' that are not visible to the naked eye. The station site is near the bottom of the image almost in line with the '200 metres' on the scale going up the image, you can even discern the platform and station buildings that are normally invisible. The entire site is open to the public as it now belongs to Scottish Heritage or the Forestry Commission.

[Nick Holliday]

I'm glad that the majority of posters finally agree with my original proposal, as I was beginning to doubt my sanity. I don't know what more can be done to convince Kenton, as I feel the Auctiva view clinches it with the yard crane added to the evidence. When I looked on Google Earth the station site was clearly visible, in use as a transport depot - the multitude of rectangles on the Forestry Commission plot being containers/trailers scattered around the site. The building in question shown in the OP is clearly visible to the north side of Wilsontown Road, perhaps someone local can confirm whether it is a good match or not.

BTW I think that the Scottish Rambler railtour with the Crab took place on 29th March 1964, which fits in with the suggested chronology.

[Kenton]

Oh, and Wilsontown had a bridge at the west end of the station not one over the tracks but one over a small depression (cart track?) running north south.

 

The Goods shed is clearly still there on the 1941 OS map - the track arrangement at that date hadn't changed since 1898 Map - in 1864 the track and station had not been created.

I'm looking for a later map than 1941 to see if the Goods shed outlasted the station..

 

 

The contours on the map show a fairly level topography yet the OP clearly shows a distinct hill with the windswept trees. This would be to the east and beyond the SB. There is no such hill either on the maps or in the Wilsontown photograph.

[Geoff Endacott]

I am not convinced. Try these:

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.railbrit.org.uk/images/6000/6663.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.railbrit.co.uk/location.php%3Floc%3DWilsontown&usg=__1yZXYQHkNzUKTkf50lmixqrajsI=&h=469&w=747&sz=55&hl=en&start=20&sig2=_wsckgT0GDunU_b0AkcpWg&zoom=0&itbs=1&tbnid=PLBDNeQDpTI_tM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=141&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwilsontown%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=79Z_TOf2DYLKswb75N3_Dw

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forth.themutual.net/pics/Wilsontown%2520Station.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forth.themutual.net/history.html&usg=__yJEqvMIv5i6SKw1Fi3mNBEDm95M=&h=205&w=275&sz=19&hl=en&start=7&sig2=XR6Tqfy7yb6Hae_wZyGy-g&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=IG12S-sYP9OD7M:&tbnh=85&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwilsontown%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=39d_TKv2A8OOswaYguXkDw

 

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hughadamson.com/Photos/Wilsontown_Lanarkshire/44%2520Wilsontown%2520Train%2520Station%2520c1920s.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hughadamson.com/Photos/Wilsontown_Lanarkshire/Wilsontown_1.htm&usg=__B5-v6p7GvtEWu3M6l4aRoZMF3IE=&h=530&w=808&sz=115&hl=en&start=1&sig2=w2oVEpeKa2YYCx0mmwIDRg&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=flPRPn9M14AGoM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwilsontown%2Bstation%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=P9h_TL_MJ8qBswb75dzlDw

 

Geoff Endacott

[pH]

Oh, and Wilsontown had a bridge at the west end of the station not one over the tracks but one over a small depression (cart track?) running north south.

 

The contours on the map show a fairly level topography yet the OP clearly shows a distinct hill with the windswept trees. This would be to the east and beyond the SB. There is no such hill either on the maps or in the Wilsontown photograph.

 

Just to make sure we're looking at the same thing - I believe the photo in the OP is wrong; it's reversed. The photo in post#58 is correct. Given that, the photo has been taken from the west end of the station, looking approximately northeast. The photographer would have been standing just about on that bridge you refer to, so it would not show up in the photo.

 

From the current OS map, there is a spot height of 279 metres at the junction of the A706 and the B7016. Looking northeast from where I think the photo was taken, the land rises quite quickly to a height of 310 metres. Even allowing for the railway on the bridge being a bit above the height of the road junction, that rise is going to show up as a hill in a photograph.

 

I'll revise something I said about the photos in the 'Steam Days' article. The 1941 map you've included shows that the line to the north of the track, opposite the signalbox, is a short siding, rather than the branch I thought it was. The branch leaves the main line a bit further east. I believe that siding can be seen in the early photo of Wilsontown station, at the end of the low hedge on the left.

 

The larger 'farm' building may have been associated with Wilsontown House, which stood on the south side of Wilsontown Road. Some of the buildings on that site were still there in 1960, but all appear to have been demolished since then. However, I think the the building partly hidden by the yard crane in the picture in post#58 is still there. It's on the north side of Wilsontown Road, and can be seen on Google Street, as well as on current maps.

[petethemole]

I'm convinced. It occurred to me after posting that as a timber building, a replacement due to fire or dilapidation would be quite possible. My Streetview attempt was based on the orientation of the OP pic, so I was looking in the wrong direction.

[Nick Holliday]

In response to Kenton’s comments:

So the corrugated iron structure in the supposedly later "mystery" photo suddenly becomes a signal box that would have preceded it.

As the various photos show the signal box was slowly being dismantled, and Kenton’s “corrugated iron†is just a remaining lower section – we might even be looking at an inside wall

So the "farm" disappears and reappears later.

The farm, and it is only on the current OS map it is actually called “Wilsontown Farmâ€, only appears in the OP. The substantial goods shed hides everything else in that direction. The only disappearing trick appears to be on the old OS maps, where the plot is marked out on the 1894 edition, nothing appears in 1911, and it is there in 1941. The OS often managed this trick, missing recent construction, so it is difficult to be sure when this building was erected.

So the curve in the platform becomes sharper

Apart from the fact that the curvature will appear different depending upon where the photographer is standing, as well as any optical differences in the cameras, there is the possibility that the platform edge was rebuilt to a slightly shallower curve after the passing loop was removed. There is the suggestion on the 1941 OS map of a slight reverse curve at the end of the loop, which the platelayers may have wanted to remove. This possible reconstruction might answer those who have been able to discern a different method of construction and a shorter platform ramp as well.

So the terrain changes - just look on a map the hill has not only been airbrushed in

To me the terrain on the horizon looks remarkably similar, even down to trees – perhaps both photographers used the same pattern from somewhere.

... and those windows again! the station building is extended and improved, using a design I still haven't seen used on a Caley station.

I have to bow to superior knowledge here, but perhaps some local carpentry was involved, probably involving re-cladding the existing frame, perhaps carried out at the same time as the extension was built, before 1911. The original station building doesn’t appear to me to be particularly Caley in design in the first place.

I still strongly disagree. For a start the geography of Wilsontown does not look anything like the OP unless big hills move!

I can’t work out whether we need to add some hills or remove them. The area is not exactly flat, with what looks like a small rise about a mile away on a line roughly ESE (I think) from the station. The line itself appears to be on a down grade away from the station, with the valley of the Law Burn between.

Secondly the curve of the platform is nowhere near as sharp in the two linked photos of Wilsontown as in the OP.

Thirdly I come back to the building which is nothing like the one in the OP - and even though I could accept that the building in the OP might have been a replacement - I am yet to even see anything like it on any Caley station.

Given the evidence of the Auctiva photo, which manages to show the station building in a state of slight undress, perhaps another assessment is due.

BTW looking at my OS maps of Wilsontown for 1911 also shows the station to be on a very shallow bend a loop line running through the station. There was a loco serving point consisting of a siding off the loop at the east end on the north side of the station which was on the south side of the loop. There were 2 other sidings on the south side of the station. Both of these sidings passing behind the signal box which was not on the platform but a few yards beyond it. The most southerly of these sidings terminated in a Goods shed probably about half the length of the station. The other siding had a crane positioned on its north side well before the station hut/building. All of this is in agreement with the photo linked to above and completely at odds with the OP.

I hardly see the OP being at odds with any of these points. With a prejudiced eye, it is almost possible to make out the gap in the hedge where the loco siding, if that‘s what it is, was. The two sidings are clearly visible. With the benefit of the additional knowledge it is clear that the signal box is not on the platform – but in neither of the photos taken from the west end is it possible to make this out. The evidence regarding the previous location of the crane appears on one OS map without a precise point of reference, and it may have been relocated once the goods shed was demolished. The angle of the OP doesn’t allow any reliable point of reference, but it matches the ebay/Auctiva view

IF that ebay photo is also Wilsontown then where is the Goods shed?

The Auctiva photo, taken just after closer, shows that the shed had disappeared at some time between 1941 and the sixties. Perhaps it was a wooden structure that succumbed to age, or changing traffic patterns, perhaps as a result of the war effort, made two open sidings more useful. Fortunately the signal box name board establishes the location rather clearly, so no need for IF!

Oh, and Wilsontown had a bridge at the west end of the station not one over the tracks but one over a small depression (cart track?) running north south.

As I said in an earlier post: “the railway actually crosses the road, just behind the photographer, by an over-bridge†and the cart track is now the A706. And none of the photos shows this end of the station in detail anyway.

[Anglian]

I'm convinced it is Wilsontown.

 

Searching Wilsontown on the earlier link I posted: www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk reveals there are two photographs in existance of the station. These images may be those we've already seen or alternatively they may be additional photographs that resolve the issue. Sadly they have to be ordered and there is a cost to that.

 

http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search_item/index.php?service=RCAHMS&id=201203

[Geoff Endacott]

This is the clincher: http://www.hughadamson.com/Photos/Wilsontown_Lanarkshire/44%20Wilsontown%20Train%20Station%20c1920s.jpg .

 

The OP has the photo reversed, but the revised image at #58 is a very good match. Eeven the trees on the skyline look right.

 

It is Wilsontown.

 

Geoff Endacott

[pH]

The Transport Treasury also has photos of Wilsontown in the Norris Forrest collection but, again, they have to be bought.

[melmerby]

Check the length of the sleepers in the original picture with the E-bay pic. at the bottom are some slightly longer sleepers and about 6 sleepers further there is a fishplate. Exactly the same positions!

 

Keith

[melmerby]

This is the clincher: http://www.hughadamson.com/Photos/Wilsontown_Lanarkshire/44%20Wilsontown%20Train%20Station%20c1920s.jpg .

 

The OP has the photo reversed, but the revised image at #58 is a very good match. Eeven the trees on the skyline look right.

 

It is Wilsontown.

 

Geoff Endacott

I think the original is the correct way round otherwise the chimney is the wrong end of the building.

See my post above.

Keith