New Hornby 28xx / 38xx

[buffalo]

...would it be fair to say that pre-1911 28xx locos 2800-2830 had stepped running plates, and 1911-1919 2831-2883 had curved running plates?

Yes, 2831 was the first of the curved type.

 

Did the running plates always change to curved after the later smokebox-cylinder arrangements were fitted?

The first three to be converted to outside pipes in 1934 were 2808, 2820 and 2828. These retained the square step, but those converted from 1935 onwards were also changed to the curved step. At least, that is my understanding of the sources I have available. Whether the first three were eventually changed, I don't know.

 

As I understand it the boiler was, after the first few, a D4 ... and I wonder how similar this might be to any other Swindon designs, especially in the light of the 28xx antecedent No.97 similar to the Saint class, and the 28XX with D4 boiler being outwardly similar to my eye to the predecesors of the Star class. I sure there are many pitfalls in making comparisons!

 

The D2 is the half-coned and the D4 is the full-coned variety. All of the 1905-7 builds (up to 2831) were built with D2 boilers, except 2822-5 which had the D4. All of 2831-83 were built with the D4. There was much swapping between the two types especially in the earlier group, though all had the D4 by 1930. I can't be certain of which other classes used the D4 without going through each class. However, Veal and Goodman note that the boiler used on 3822 at Didcot had previously been fitted to four different Halls and a couple of Granges. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of boilers can help out here.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Simon Kohler is certainly aware of 'issues' with catalogue illustrations and told me when I tackled him about it at a show earlier this year that he would like less use to be made of computer manipulation of images (which he seems to regard as the main culprit for the catalogue containing misleading images). Whether his views carry any weight on this issue within the company is another thing but hopefully they recognise that he has an awful lot of direct contact with customers and is reflecting their concerns.

Perhaps we might see things done rather better in the 2011 catalogue and future publicity material - just as long as it shows the right BR livery

Answering RobMcG the changed to a curved front drop end did indeed come with 2831, in 1911 and all subsequent locos had it from new. Every photo/postcard etc I have or have seen of an early loco subsequently fitted with outside steam pipes shows it to have curved drop front ends. The boiler development tale is quite complicated with - according the RCTS history - an example of a short cone boiler lasting on one loco until 1930.

[buffalo]

...Answering RobMcG the changed to a curved front drop end did indeed come with 2831, in 1911 and all subsequent locos had it from new. Every photo/postcard etc I have or have seen of an early loco subsequently fitted with outside steam pipes shows it to have curved drop front ends.

 

Mike, that's what I thought until I checked while writing the above reply to Rob's questions. Take a look at fig J23 in the RCTS volume, it shows 2808 with outside pipes and the square step. The explanation came from the Veal and Goodman booklet.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, that's what I thought until I checked while writing the above reply to Rob's questions. Take a look at fig J23 in the RCTS volume, it shows 2808 with outside pipes and the square step. The explanation came from the Veal and Goodman booklet.

 

Nick

OOPS Correction due then 'Every photo/postcard etc I have or have seen of an early loco subsequently fitted with outside steam pipes shows it to have curved drop front ends, until Nick told me to look closely at one in the RCTS book. (and it was of course one of three - the first conversions - which retained the original drop ends) I forgot the first rule: check all the text!

Interestingly the cylinder wrapper also looks rather different and it doesn't seem to be wholly down to shadow - I wonder if problems with that prompted a more comprehensive change on the later renewals

[Ozexpatriate]

Simon Kohler is certainly aware of 'issues' with catalogue illustrations and told me when I tackled him about it at a show earlier this year that he would like less use to be made of computer manipulation of images (which he seems to regard as the main culprit for the catalogue containing misleading images). Whether his views carry any weight on this issue within the company is another thing but hopefully they recognise that he has an awful lot of direct contact with customers and is reflecting their concerns.

 

Perhaps we might see things done rather better in the 2011 catalogue and future publicity material - just as long as it shows the right BR livery

The computer manipulation is pretty obvious in this image of R2917 - a BR 'black' 28xx.

 

In it, the tender is clearly black and the locomotive is greenish-black with a black smokebox. This frustrates me less than when they get descriptions just plain wrong or are incomplete as to details.

 

When the BR liveried Castles were announced there was a lot of confusion about tenders, crests and double chimneys too. These details are important to us - amply illustrated by all the discussion on this thread regarding outside steam pipes and stepped/curved frames for the 28xx.

 

Anyway, I've had my little rant for the day. Thanks for listening.

[robmcg]

Mike, that's what I thought until I checked while writing the above reply to Rob's questions. Take a look at fig J23 in the RCTS volume, it shows 2808 with outside pipes and the square step. The explanation came from the Veal and Goodman booklet.

 

Nick

 

Thankyou Nick, and Mike, for the history about smokeboxes, cylinder castings and running plate styles.

 

It may be of interest in that with my Hornby model of drop-running-plate 2818 there is a slight upwards 'kick' or upwards angle in the front section rendering the front buffer *very* fractionally high, visible in front-three-quarters views at wheel level, but I changed my picture on p5 in this thread slightly with photo editing tools to make it less apparent.

 

I'm not sure where photo editing fits in the ethics of advertising but my view is that if a picture purports to be 'actual' it should be as close to that as reasonably possible. My own pictures are unashamedly edited or 'painted', having been raised in photographic darkrooms where every trick was used to improve silver bromide prints of real railway scenes , especially variable exposure and contrast! I still cannot believe how good some pre-WW2 photos by Canon E Treacy and contemporaries were!

 

And back to the Hornby 28/38xx models, they seem to be selling quite rapidly, and 2818 has no problems at all straight from the box, and they are definietly made in China. I might make my next one slightly weathered, real coal and a few tools on the tender, even if it's a 'Collett'. Oops..

 

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

 

It may be of interest in that with my Hornby model of drop-running-plate 2818 there is a slight upwards 'kick' or upwards angle in the front section rendering the front buffer *very* fractionally high, visible in front-three-quarters views at wheel level, but I changed my picture on p5 in this thread slightly with photo editing tools to make it less apparent.

 

Rob

 

Highly prototypical then Rod - those bracing pieces which come down from the smokebox saddle to the front footplating above the buffer beam weren't there to hold anything down but to stop the bufferbeam bending upwards (an inherent design weakness as a result of Churchwards decision to use a bar frame extension on the front of the main frames).

 

 

[gwrrob]

Can I ask if the buffers are correct on the model because all the photos I've seen,albeit in BR days show them with parallel buffers but the 38xx model has them tapered.

[buffalo]

Russell has a photo of 3835 in 1952 with taper buffers, but all other photos I've found show the parallel type. There may of course be others

 

Nick

 

Edit: I have also seen a couple of rear threequarter views showing them coupled to tenders which have taper buffers but, as far as I can make out, the engines themselves have parallel buffers.

 

Another Edit: I just noticed a photo of 2818 ex-works in 1957 with parallel buffers Then I looked at my Hornby model and it also has parallel buffers. The NRM photo on the box is from the wrong angle, but I presume it has the same. So, in this respect, the model is correct, but it will be another issue to address if renumbering or backdating. Can anyone tell us what buffers the other 28XX models have?

[buffalo]

Strangely, for a thread like this, there are no un-retouched photos of the models we are discussing. Yes, Rob has provided some wonderfully atmospheric, but somewhat retouched, photos and Larry has provided a view of the frames on a prototype. As some of us will not have seen the various models, I thought I would start the ball rolling with a couple of views of my 2818 in straight from the box condition without added details.

 

 

You may be able to see the slight upward tilt of the front footplate that Rob mentioned, however the buffers on this one are at exactly the right height (according to my Bill Bedford height setting gauge).

 

 

Perhaps someone would be kind enough to provide us with some views of the 2884/38XX versions?

 

Nick

[robmcg]

Highly prototypical then Rod - those bracing pieces which come down from the smokebox saddle to the front footplating above the buffer beam weren't there to hold anything down but to stop the bufferbeam bending upwards (an inherent design weakness as a result of Churchwards decision to use a bar frame extension on the front of the main frames).

 

 

 

Aha! I do enjoy the way prototypes can sometimes do things modellers don't expect!

 

Rob

[buffalo]

In answering a couple of questions here, I've discovered a great deal more about the 28XX class than I knew previously. Rather than loosing a piece of paper if I wrote all this down, or having to look it up again when I need it, I've tried to bring together all of the visible changes to the 28XX class in a single blog entry. Hope someone else finds it useful.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

In answering a couple of questions here, I've discovered a great deal more about the 28XX class than I knew previously. Rather than loosing a piece of paper if I wrote all this down, or having to look it up again when I need it, I've tried to bring together all of the visible changes to the 28XX class in a single blog entry. Hope someone else finds it useful.

 

Nick

 

Excellent stuff Nick - useful (albeit my period of interest is the 'late period when all of these were in unadorned - BR - black). I shall have to check my postcard collection for dated views as well.

 

 

 

[7013]

Beautiful Cab shot Nick, screaming out for crew

[gwrrob]

Heres a couple of photos showing the Collett cabbed 38xx up close.This is going to be 3864 when I get round to it.Fox do the cabside numbers.The flash has made the green a bit light but don't worry it is GW green. Like 7013 says its crying out for a crew.

[buffalo]

Heres a couple of photos showing the Collett cabbed 38xx up close...

 

Looks good, but what happened to the handrail?

 

Interesting to see that the 38XX has the upper lamp iron in the correct position. I'm beginning to suspect that the NRM's 2818 has lost its lamp iron, though it will be a while before I'm in York again to check.

 

Nick

[46444]

Heres a couple of photos showing the Collett cabbed 38xx up close.This is going to be 3864 when I get round to it.Fox do the cabside numbers.The flash has made the green a bit light but don't worry it is GW green. Like 7013 says its crying out for a crew.

 

Evening Rob,

 

The 38xx looks the superb! I shall be ordering one of these shortly too.

 

Like you, renumber and Monty's crew in the cab should finish things off nicely.

 

Not sure if the Teign Valley line could handle one of these beasts in real life though?

Hope to see the real thing down on the SDR this weekend! B)

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[7013]

Black BR late crest 38xx.....can't wait.

[gwrrob]

Looks good, but what happened to the handrail?

 

 

Nick

 

On closer inspection it appears that mine has a missing handrail knob.Out with my spares box I think for a Gibson replacement. Something to watch when purchasing.

 

Edit.I used 1.60 mm small/short knobs from Markits.Although I shouldn't have to on a £100 loco thats not even been run yet.

[robmcg]

Is it possible that the handrail fits into a drilled hole on the cab front just below the window. That's how the new Castle handrails are fitted-up... just a thought.

 

Edit. Oops no there is a handrail mounting plug supposed to be just before the window near the rear washout plug. The Hattons pictures today show it

 

http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=32125

 

with quite wonky handrail ...

 

Rob

[Chris Chewter]

Rails of Sheffield now have the black 2800 in BR late crest in stock, and it appears that the fears about outside steam pipe were misplaced. However it's the first time I've seen a reversing rod painted red!

 

http://railsofsheffield.com/br-black-class-2800-2-8-0-locomotive-2810-dcc-fitted-r2917x-JJJA15121.aspx

[The Stationmaster]

Rails of Sheffield now have the black 2800 in BR late crest in stock, and it appears that the fears about outside steam pipe were misplaced. However it's the first time I've seen a reversing rod painted red!

 

http://railsofsheffi...-JJJA15121.aspx

 

 

 

Dammit - another one, nothing for months and then they all come along together (and doesn't that just capture the 'face' superbly?).

[coachmann]

I believe the red reversing rod was a characteristic of one shed but cannot remember which. I recall only seeing it on GW 2-6-0s.

[The Stationmaster]

I believe the red reversing rod was a characteristic of one shed but cannot remember which. I recall only seeing it on GW 2-6-0s.

 

Caerphilly Works did it on 4358 (which was in any case a 'special finish' job for a Royal working) but I don't know if they did it as a regular thing. And 2810 was shopped at Caerphilly so it might well be a correct representation.

 

 

[Garry D100]

A question for those that know more about the subject than I do.

 

Why is the BR late crest larger on the Black 3800

http://railsofsheffi...-JJJA15122.aspx

 

than it is on the Black 2800?

http://railsofsheffi...-JJJA15121.aspx

 

For some reason I favour the look of the smaller crest

 

Thanks.

Garry