RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 6, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 6, 2013 Yes Mike, locos also take on a seriously different perspective when the buffer is about to pass a couple of feet from your head at high speed than they do from the platform or passing under a bridge. I wonder what the models would look like from 8mm away and about 16mm above track level? Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdseyecircus Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I quite agree SE - it's something over 50 years since I last saw one of these locos 'in the flesh' and that was in any case from ground level in Willesden shed and quite bluntly I haven't got a clue if 'the brow' looks too big or too small but overall the loco looks right to my memory of half a century ago (although I haven't see the model from the equivalent of ground level inside a loco shed ). I too have never seen these locos in the flesh - they are before my time. But on page 27 of model rail there is a pic of the Bachmann model along side the earlier FIA model. The windscreen on the FIA model looks correct compared to photos of the real loco. The Bachmann model has a less deep brow, giving a wider look. There is no guess work to my conclusions. I have not seen the real model either. I am just writing my thoughts on what I see in the mag. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandora Posted October 6, 2013 Author Share Posted October 6, 2013 The fact to keep in mind when reading any of the forthcoming reviews, 10000/1 received an extraordinary number of changes during their working lives, some of them only weeks apart, and also there were many detail differences between the two even when they were erected at Derby The documentation of the changes exist as personal diaries and notebooks of a workshop staff member and are in private hands. The JLtRT kit was intended to be one universal set of parts, then as the information unravelled, it became no less than four carefully selected from a range of many possibilities. Expect to see a lot of misinformed critiscism when the models are reviewed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted October 7, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2013 Sadly for some people negative criticism is a full time occupation. Yes there are things that are occasionally not correct, but to allow this to denigrate what is ostensibly a fine model is sad. By all means point out things that could have been done better but put them in context, that is it is a model and represents a loco that once existed but sadly was not preserved, any amount of photographs in these situations are often open to interpretation. Conversely there are occasionally glaring mistakes observed which are perfectly legitimate and many times leads to either withdrawal (in the case of the Hall) or an issue of a part to fix the problem (T9 tender). For my part the 10000/1 locos look superb and as Pandora rightfully observes the changes in these locos which were often many mean that it would be impossible to model every variable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2013 For those heavily -involved in the pursuit of authenticy,I suggest obtaining a copy of David Hunt's 'LMS Locomotive Profiles'...No.9 'Main Line Diesel Electrics Nos. 10000 and 10001'pp 26-40. That will keep you happily occupied....Wild Swan in association with NRM.( publishers ). An interesting book - if you are seriously contemplating buying the model..or even if you are not. Essential reading for the armchair critic Another observation worth recording.....both FIA Trains AND Bachmann enlisted the help of a gentleman who was,I believe,an apprentice at Derby Works in 1947. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmesfeldian Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I gather a supplement to Dave Hunt's book is due for release in the near future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicky W Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Another observation worth recording.....both FIA Trains AND Bachmann enlisted the help of a gentleman who was,I believe,an apprentice at Derby Works in 1947. I spoke to said gentleman at the Loughborough show last weekend. He was full of praise for the Bachmann model and pointed out some of the interesting nuances they have included in the tooling, such as the very slightly asymetric roof doors due to the positioning of the cylinders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted October 7, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 7, 2013 The fact to keep in mind when reading any of the forthcoming reviews, 10000/1 received an extraordinary number of changes during their working lives, some of them only weeks apart, and also there were many detail differences between the two even when they were erected at Derby The documentation of the changes exist as personal diaries and notebooks of a workshop staff member and are in private hands. The JLtRT kit was intended to be one universal set of parts, then as the information unravelled, it became no less than four carefully selected from a range of many possibilities. Expect to see a lot of misinformed critiscism when the models are reviewed So who will be brave and/or knowledable enough to make an accurate comparison between the Bachmann and Dapol versions, particularly since the Dapol one came in for such criticism? And should we believe them...? I'm just glad they don't interest me so I won't have to decide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted October 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 8, 2013 I dont believe that the Dapol version was that bad, of course any flaws pointed out would have been observed by Bachmann who would hopefully not make the same errors, however as stated before the locos changed so much over their lifespan then who is to say what is right or wrong. It is only on the manufacturing side that the main faults appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2013 Having seen the real ones (and their Southern cousins) stationary at close quarters on many occasions at New St in the 1950s, my memory is that they could give quite a squat appearance from some angles. Looking back at the various pictures available on the web the painting style gives a lot of variations to the look, as does the ambient lighting condition which tends to accentuate certain features. Regarding the top of the cab, IIRC at one time the roof was painted silver or grey all the way along. From pictures this doesn't always seem to finish at the same place on every cab. Accentuated by the lighting this can give a different impression of the cab height and the depth of the section above the windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Sadly for some people negative criticism is a full time occupation. Yes there are things that are occasionally not correct, but to allow this to denigrate what is ostensibly a fine model is sad. That is a totally unreasonable comment! Have you actually read the review? The review is entirely favourable and the comment about the brow is based on study of photographs and the comparison with the other models of this loco. In any event, the wording is: "Our only comment is that the 'brow' above the windscreens is a fraction (and it is only a fraction) shallower than the prototype." I hardly think we've allowed our full-time occupation as negative criticisers to denigrate a fine model. Certainly not as much as your comments denigrate our reviewers. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted October 8, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 8, 2013 Chris you have completely misunderstood my posting which has nothing to do with the review in Model Rail at all, not once do I mention Model Rail and you have done me a disservice by Cherry picking from my posting. My observation was about the fact that some people will look at a model and start by nit picking about details whilst ignoring the loco as a complete representation of the prototype? I have read the review and it was on the strength of it that I ordered my model. The gist of this thread is about the many variables that these locos had during their lifetime and how it would be difficult to cover every small variation, therefore nit picking would be totally unjustified. I am sorry that you have made a completely spurious connection but be rest assured there was no inference about Model Rails review which as I have said impressed me enough to order 10000. Andrew Carter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2013 That is a totally unreasonable comment! Have you actually read the review? The review is entirely favourable and the comment about the brow is based on study of photographs and the comparison with the other models of this loco. In any event, the wording is: "Our only comment is that the 'brow' above the windscreens is a fraction (and it is only a fraction) shallower than the prototype." I hardly think we've allowed our full-time occupation as negative criticisers to denigrate a fine model. Certainly not as much as your comments denigrate our reviewers. CHRIS LEIGH Chris,having trawled through the recent postings on this topic,I cannot evidence any reference this gentleman has made to the MR review as being a negative one. I think he is actually referring to comments made ,perhaps,by others on this forum ? I think it safe to assume that very few members of this forum think of MR in negative,critical terms. Reviews are positive,thorough and fair. I really don't think 7013 merits the term 'unreasonable' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 8, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2013 Interesting to see the two side by side on Albion Yard. I think that picture says a lot about the effect of colour blocks on perspective when you look at the cab roof area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 I have to admit to being a little disappointed that I will not be able to actually own a pair of twins, as the green-liveried versions available do not allow me to do so. I had wanted both in the green/partial stripe/nyp livery, and have amended my order to just 10000. Looking at the pix, there is no quick fix to backdating 10001. cheers, Peter C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScRSG Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 A little off topic but does anyone have any record of the twins reaching as far North as Perth?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 All I've ever been able to find is that the twins ran trials on the Glasgow-Aberdeen's in the early months of 1949... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mow Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Have been looking at this collection of photographs vai David Hey's Collection Blog. Apologises if it has been linked earlier. http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page14.htm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagrizz Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 A little off topic but does anyone have any record of the twins reaching as far North as Perth?? This has been discussed before in another thread and I've copied the relevant bit below. Yes, they will have reached Perth. Graham "When on the LMR, apart from trials on the MR route, the twins were largely confined to the WCML between Euston and Glasgow/Perth. There are hints of forays to Aberdeen but no confirmed sightings. One of the units left Glasgow Buchanan St on 19/9/49 with the 1.35pm "Bon Accord" to Aberdeen but it is not known whether it worked all the way or came off at Perth." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I have to admit to being a little disappointed that I will not be able to actually own a pair of twins, as the green-liveried versions available do not allow me to do so. I had wanted both in the green/partial stripe/nyp livery, and have amended my order to just 10000. Looking at the pix, there is no quick fix to backdating 10001. cheers, Peter C. Have you looked at the Rails of Sheffield website? Besides the black livery they are doing a few variations with the green livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScRSG Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 This has been discussed before in another thread and I've copied the relevant bit below. Yes, they will have reached Perth. Graham "When on the LMR, apart from trials on the MR route, the twins were largely confined to the WCML between Euston and Glasgow/Perth. There are hints of forays to Aberdeen but no confirmed sightings. One of the units left Glasgow Buchanan St on 19/9/49 with the 1.35pm "Bon Accord" to Aberdeen but it is not known whether it worked all the way or came off at Perth." Thanks for the info., probably stretching it a bit to hope the green liveried versions made it, but you never know.... modeller's licence again! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Have you looked at the Rails of Sheffield website? Besides the black livery they are doing a few variations with the green livery. Thanks Crewlisle, but the variant I wanted is not to be produced. HOWEVER, having seen Pat Hammond's excellent review in MREmag today, where both models are shown together, then the work involved is not as bad as I thought, so Rails have received a second order this evening! Cheers, Peter C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 That is a totally unreasonable comment! Have you actually read the review? The review is entirely favourable and the comment about the brow is based on study of photographs and the comparison with the other models of this loco. In any event, the wording is: "Our only comment is that the 'brow' above the windscreens is a fraction (and it is only a fraction) shallower than the prototype." I hardly think we've allowed our full-time occupation as negative criticisers to denigrate a fine model. Certainly not as much as your comments denigrate our reviewers. CHRIS LEIGH This does seem to be an unfortunate misinterpretation of 7013's comment, I certainly did not take it as a criticism of Model Rail or other commercial reviews but rather as an observation that within the larger community there are some that will take against a model regardless of any objectivity. One of the perils of t'internet, where comments are read in black and white without the benefit of hearing tone or seeing body language. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 .... which as I have said impressed me enough to order 10000. How many? You'd better put a few on eBay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 16, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 16, 2013 don't know how it happened, I have just bought a green.partial eggshell line 10000 from Rails. I guess a zimo chip from Digitrains at the weekend will be in order. Damn you Tony Wright for your excellent review in this month's BRM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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