RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19 22 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said: Well, as that has been happening since season 1992/93, it's a proven point. Mike. So you do agree then, that rules shouldn't apply to any Premier League club finishing above 6th, AKA qualifying for Europe! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted May 19 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 19 On 18/05/2024 at 01:56, Natalie said: They also were not promoted to Division 1 in the 1930s in a fair manner as they finished in 5th place (I think). Their promotion to the newly expanded Division 1 involved the use of brown envelopes to 'encourage' the other teams in Division 2 to vote for their promotion. It was considered that with the expansion of Division 1 the teams due to be relegated from there would not be so and the top few teams from Division 2 promoted in the usual manner to make up the numbers. Promotion was based on votes with relegation from Division 1 as per usual. Arsenal got voted for promotion and guess whose place they took in Division 1? That's right it was Tottenham who were relegated to make way. From then on a bitter rivalry has ensued. To be fair to them to not be relegated from the top flight in at least 70+ years is pretty impressive. Disclaimer- I am a life long Spurs fan who is no lover of the team previously from Woolwich but I have tried to reflect the situation of their promotion as objectively as I can. (That lot from down the road in red have been great this season and will be very unlucky if they are not to be crowned champions. They certainly deserve it and Mr Arteta has done a sterling job. Moral is stick with your manager and support him during the sometimes difficult early seasons and let him build his team with backing from the board. Mr Levy please note...) Nat The, ahem, restructuring of the First Division took place in 1919 on the restart after the First World War, so Arsenal's continuous 100 years in the top division was in 2019-20 season. If I could be bothered to do the maths which take into account WW2 then the 100 seasons should be coming up around now. The scary thing for me is that I have been a supporter for more than 50% of those seasons! The finale at the Emirates this afternoon is thus between the team with longest continuous membership of the top division and the team with the most seasons in the top division. As a counterpoint to this stability, in 1996 I met the woman who became my wife. Through her I inherited another team with a less storied but nonetheless significant place in football history, Bolton Wanderers. Over those years I have experienced Premier League to League 2 and all the disasters in between. I can recommend this as a way of keeping some perspective on the game. Yesterday a team that had scored 86 goals in the season lost a play-off final in abject fashion with no shots on target. This afternoon I shall also watch a team who will probably fall short of the top prize in English football. I'll survive and the best thing about all this is that we can do it all again come August!! David 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I doubt very much that publication of the Premier League's "verdict" on City's alleged misdemeanours will be the end of the story. Assuming City are found guilty on some counts, I suspect strongly that the process will be challenged in court of law. I don't know on what grounds but could imagine differences of opinion (an "arguable case") regarding disclosure of the allocation of costs between the various companies in the City group and and its owners, and commercial confidentiality regarding sponsorship deals. I would suggest that only the courts could decide what level of disclosure is "fair and reasonable". I would also not be surprised to see a further challenge by a third party to the legality of FFP as inhibiting fair competition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 As a Spurs fan may I offer my sympathies and thoughts to any Arsenal fans on here. To have a season like they have done with some of the best football played they are mightily unlucky not to get the title. They really must be amongst the favourites for next season's title already. Arteta has done a great job. Credit to all the gooners today who stayed in the stands and saluted their team and manager in a dignified way. No banned flares or or smoke bombs either. Shame that some of the man City fans had to resort to the use of dangerous fire products to 'celebrate'. Natalie COYS 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) 12 hours ago, hayfield said: Quite a lot of the charges are about City's repeated failure to comply with requests, don't forget UFEA are keeping a very close look at what is going on. If City have nothing to hide wht drag it out ? As for the way City are being treated, The premier League should treat every team the same. City have prolonged this matter in a way neither Everton or Forest were allowed, as for Everton they have been investigated twice in a season and both times found guilty. If City are innocent, which they may be just stand up and be counted, the longer this drags on gives the impression of cover up and murky background going on's There is no actual evidence for what you have said, it is just supposition and what others have said, in particular the EPL, and as I said I'd trust their word no more than City's. If they had the evidence to make the charges in the first place why haven't they just gone ahead and taken it to court? The fact they haven't confirms they haven't, so the rumour that the charges are based on doctored emails seems more than a possibility. We could go back and forward all day with this but I'll simply say what I said earlier. Innocent until (or if) proven guilty. Edited May 19 by Hobby Spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 41 minutes ago, Natalie said: Shame that some of the man City fans had to resort to the use of dangerous fire products to 'celebrate'. They aren't the first English club to use them and I agree they shouldn't be allowed. Though how you stop people taking them in I recon the clubs would be interested to know how! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 12 hours ago, Hobby said: There is no actual evidence for what you have said, it is just supposition and what others have said, in particular the EPL, and as I said I'd trust their word no more than City's. If they had the evidence to make the charges in the first place why haven't they just gone ahead and taken it to court? The fact they haven't confirms they haven't, so the rumour that the charges are based on doctored emails seems more than a possibility. We could go back and forward all day with this but I'll simply say what I said earlier. Innocent until (or if) proven guilty. If City are innocent, which I accept they may be, there is one simple and easy thing they can do. Bring everything out in the open, comply with the EPL requests and simply call the EPL's bluff. Not doing so damages their case and reputation, clearly there are vast sums behind City which in itself is not an issue. Unless they have broken the fairplay funding rules. The fact that you have chosen to ignore is that City have been charged with 115 offences under the Premier League rules, which is 115 charges more than any other teams, and I think 35 or them I believe is down to City being uncooperative with the EPL However according to reports City's ownership and funding is held in a myriad of offshore companies and deals behind closed doors out of scrutiny of the authorities 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 On the BBC this Morning What are the 115 charges against Man City? • 54x Failure to provide accurate financial information 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 14x Failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments from 2009-10 to 2017-18. • 5x Failure to comply with Uefa's rules including Financial Fair Play (FFP) 2013-14 to 2017-18. • 7x Breaching Premier League's PSR rules 2015-16 to 2017-18. • 35x Failure to co-operate with Premier League investigations December 2018 - Feb 2023. In total, City have been charged with 115 breaches of Premier League regulations. A bit like Wicky leaks Der Spiegel seems to have unearthed information not in open public availability What do the 115 Man City charges mean? Effectively the charges allege that Manchester City cheated. We only have the information published in Der Spiegel to go on, but the charges identified allege that: For nine years to 2017, the club did not provide accurate financial information about their revenue That from 2009 to 2013, they didn’t give full details of how much they were paying their manager From 2010 to 2016 they didn’t give full detail around payments to players From 2013 to 2018 they didn’t comply with Uefa FFP regulations From 2015 to 2018 they didn’t comply with the Premier League’s PSR rules And finally, from 2018 onwards, they did not co-operate with the Premier League’s inquiry Now, if we go back to Der Spiegel, the allegations were around driving more money into the club from owner Sheikh Mansour through fictitious sponsorship deals, paying then manager Roberto Mancini to act as a consultant to a club in Abu Dhabi and giving players more money than was going through the accounts. In theory, this would have allowed City to sign more and better players than they would normally have been able to. In the period in question, they won Premier Leagues in 2012 and 2014, finishing runners-up twice, the FA Cup in 2011 – beaten finalists in 2013, and the EFL Cup in 2014 and 2016. Without the additional money, the argument goes, they would not have won what they did and would not have been as far advanced as they were when Pep Guardiola arrived in 2016 and turned them into the most successful team in the world, culminating in them winning the Treble in 2023. My view is that they have been given enough time to reply and defend these allegations, simply suspend them from the league until they comply, that will make them sit up and start engaging with the investigation 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 You forgot the word "alleged", until the EPL can prove them that's all they are. DS are known to get and use dodgy information that often isn't true. None of them prove anything. I'll wait and see, and repeat for your benefit as you seem to continue to ignore it, "innocent until proven guilty". I suspect if you were charged with something you deny you did you would wish that to be the case... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 Quick question Should man utd win the fa cup final on Saturday with city already having won the prem who gets priority with the opentop bus parade through manchester on sunday ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted May 20 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 20 5 minutes ago, peanuts said: Quick question Should man utd win the fa cup final on Saturday with city already having won the prem who gets priority with the opentop bus parade through manchester on sunday ? They could always share…. 😀 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 20 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 20 26 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said: They could always share…. 😀 Whoever got downstairs wouldn't be impressed! Mike. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 3 hours ago, Hobby said: You forgot the word "alleged", until the EPL can prove them that's all they are. DS are known to get and use dodgy information that often isn't true. None of them prove anything. I'll wait and see, and repeat for your benefit as you seem to continue to ignore it, "innocent until proven guilty". I suspect if you were charged with something you deny you did you would wish that to be the case... Yes at the moment alleged, however UFEA did find City guilty. On appeal CAS found in City's favour, because the time in which they could be charged had run out !! Sadly guilt or innocence was never disproved on some of the charges, simply the time had run out However The Prem league has no time constraints and said misdemeanors are back on the table So how did we get to this point? Here is a timeline of Manchester City's case: November 2018: Football Leaks allegations emerge, with Der Spiegel publishing claims Manchester City breached FFP rules March 2019: Uefa launches a formal investigation off the back of Der Spiegel's findings May 2019: City criticise the investigation and launch appeal process November 2019: Cas deems City's appeal inadmissible February 2020: Uefa announces a two-year ban from European competitions and a 30m euros fine for the club July 2020: City's European ban overturned after Cas appeal July 2021: City lose a jurisdiction ruling which allows the media to report the Premier League is continuing to investigate the champions for alleged financial breaches April 2022: German newspaper Der Spiegel publishes a fresh report claiming the Premier League has been investigating the club for three years, providing detailed claims Feb 2023: Premier League charges City with 115 financial breaches Autumn 2024: Reported date of a potential PSR legal trial between the Premier League and City Summer 2025: Reported date of a verdict on the trial related to 115 charges. The shear size of the charges are unbelievable But if City are innocent as you claim its in everyone's benefit (especially City's) for the truth to come out. All I am asking is for them to corporate with EPL rather than rack up 35 charges of not cooperating. Sadly at the moment until proved innocent their success is tainted 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 21 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 21 (edited) 11 hours ago, peanuts said: Quick question Should man utd win the fa cup final on Saturday with city already having won the prem who gets priority with the opentop bus parade through manchester on sunday ? Then United should make sure they lose, so it doesn't become an issue! Should be easy, anyway! Edited May 21 by kevinlms More info 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 9 hours ago, hayfield said: But if City are innocent as you claim I have not claimed anything of the sort. I am simply pointing out that they are currently not guilty of anything, the charges have to be proven and currently they aren't. You, however, appear to be taking the view that because of the shear number of charges that they must be guilty. I am trying to remind you that's not how British justice works. Obviously as a City fan I hope that they are unfounded allegations, but I'm if they are guilty then we'll have to take the punishment, whatever that is. What concerns me is how long it's been going on for, the EPL blame City, but I do have my doubts that it's quite as simple as that. As far as I'm aware charges are not laid until the evidence is available and convincing so does that mean the EPL have made those charges without any suitable evidence and based on a newspaper's story some if which relates to doctored emails. No doubt we'll see in due course. The sooner its over the better for all concerned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 4 hours ago, kevinlms said: Then United should make sure they lose, so it doesn't become an issue! Should be easy, anyway! had a suggestion that utd could have theres in london so the fanbase doesent have to travel 😇 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 2 hours ago, Hobby said: I have not claimed anything of the sort. I am simply pointing out that they are currently not guilty of anything, the charges have to be proven and currently they aren't. You, however, appear to be taking the view that because of the shear number of charges that they must be guilty. I am trying to remind you that's not how British justice works. Obviously as a City fan I hope that they are unfounded allegations, but I'm if they are guilty then we'll have to take the punishment, whatever that is. What concerns me is how long it's been going on for, the EPL blame City, but I do have my doubts that it's quite as simple as that. As far as I'm aware charges are not laid until the evidence is available and convincing so does that mean the EPL have made those charges without any suitable evidence and based on a newspaper's story some if which relates to doctored emails. No doubt we'll see in due course. The sooner its over the better for all concerned. Hobby Just a guess, but looking at some of the charges they relate to UAFA's original charges which on appeal were ruled out on appeal simply on a technically about timing, looks like in some of the cases EPL have taken up the mantel. A third of the charges are simply City's reluctance to reply with EPL's requests for information. If it were as simple as you suggest then it should have been all wrapped up by now. One of the problems of foreign ownership is unravelling complex situations of funding, usually designed to hide things they do not want aired in public. Which is perhaps the nub of allegations around Financial Fair Play. As I said do as Chelsea did, come clean at the earliest point !!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted May 21 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 21 3 hours ago, peanuts said: had a suggestion that utd could have theres in london so the fanbase doesn't have to travel 😇 Even better, have theirs in the Middle East or Asia where most of their fanbase is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 3 hours ago, hayfield said: As I said do as Chelsea did, come clean at the earliest point !!! Yet again an assumption by you that City are guilty! I give up. It was fine when the big four were spending and ok for a tiddler to come along every so often and challenge for a season but when a new owner comes along and tries to set up the club in a strong footing then it's not fair. The whole FFP set up is to protect the few and prevent other teams challenging them. When they try they are knocked down. There are a few other clubs watching what happens as they'd like to be up there, as well. I don't know what the answer is, but protecting the status of the big clubs shouldn't be the way forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 21 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 21 15 minutes ago, Hobby said: Yet again an assumption by you that City are guilty! I give up. It was fine when the big four were spending and ok for a tiddler to come along every so often and challenge for a season but when a new owner comes along and tries to set up the club in a strong footing then it's not fair. The whole FFP set up is to protect the few and prevent other teams challenging them. When they try they are knocked down. There are a few other clubs watching what happens as they'd like to be up there, as well. I don't know what the answer is, but protecting the status of the big clubs shouldn't be the way forward. You mean a conspiracy, like 'Fergie Time', where the ref was bluffed into extra time - well enough for United to score! Besides, it should be in the other clubs interest, to get a conclusion, not stall for years. There are 20 clubs in the Premier League, not the Big Four or 6 depending on which season. This year there were less! The remaining clubs, ought to petition the EPL to get a move on. Or are they afraid of their own bookkeeping? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 4 hours ago, Hobby said: Yet again an assumption by you that City are guilty! I give up. It was fine when the big four were spending and ok for a tiddler to come along every so often and challenge for a season but when a new owner comes along and tries to set up the club in a strong footing then it's not fair. The whole FFP set up is to protect the few and prevent other teams challenging them. When they try they are knocked down. There are a few other clubs watching what happens as they'd like to be up there, as well. I don't know what the answer is, but protecting the status of the big clubs shouldn't be the way forward. The thing you cannot accept is that they have been charged !!! even worse, a third of charges relate to not cooperating with the EPL in a timely matter The financial Fair Play is not to protect the big four, but the so called smaller clubs, Palace, Brighton, Bournemouth have punched well above their weight whilst adhering to FFP, even clubs the size of Villa can get into the Champions League despite having smaller revenues, Also it means clubs like United, Spurs and Newcastle have to fight for the lower European competitions, FFP in action. How difficult is it to comply with the EPL's regulations ? Smaller less well funded clubs seem able to do so, even when it means they are in default of the rules !! I like City as a club, however whilst they are in dispute with the EPL and seemingly dragging their feet when questioned about their finances, it certainly doesn't look good for them or the game. If they are being harshly dealt with, simply prove publicly the EPL are in the wrong !! As I said, I would expect all clubs to be treated the same, despite either their size or ownership, since this has been dragging on so long it needs to be sorted out quickly "but protecting the status of the big clubs shouldn't be the way forward." Simply this is the whole point, City should be as transparent as the other 19 clubs, not in a league of their own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 Agree to differ time. As it stands FFP is set up to protect the big teams by preventing smaller teams becoming bigger. As for your view of the charges, I sincerely hope you never find yourself in this position. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted May 24 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24 A disgraceful performance by Newcastle United, against an Australian All Stars team. An 8-0 defeat, just shows what it is, a complete rip off for their own fans, who happen to live in Australia. We all know that the junior players need a break and match experience, but this is an insult to fans. https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c511gvv8z9xo Perhaps this is something the EPL, should be taking a look at? It's certainly not the first time, but a regular occurrence. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
43110andyb Posted Friday at 19:07 Share Posted Friday at 19:07 (edited) Darlo fans prove once again that they are some of the best in the business! It’s one thing supporting a club but another whole new ball game running it! https://darlingtonfc.co.uk/news/boost-the-budget-target-reached Edited Friday at 19:08 by 43110andyb 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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