Returned goods gone missing - what to do?

[Barry Ten]

I seem to be having a run of bad luck with mail order items lately. A couple of months ago I ordered a loco from a reputable online source, one I've had many dealings with over the years and generally found to be efficient and helpful. The item arrived but testing revealed it to be a poor runner under DCC, unable to go more than a few feet without conking out. I've run enough out of the box DCC locos from the same manufacturer to know that something wasn't right. I contacted the retailer, who apologised and told me to send the loco back via second class registered mail. This I duly did, together with an email to let them know it was on the way.

 

A couple of weeks went by with no news, and I was just about to re-establish contact when the retailer emailed me to ask if I'd sent the loco. I had, of course. I then checked the post office's tracking system (I admit it hadn't occurred to me do so before then) and found that the PO had made one failed attempt to deliver the item, had left a card, and that the retailer had not called to collect. The retailer suggested I put in a claim with the PO. I'm guessing that they don't feel particularly at fault here.

 

Subsequent investigation revealed that there'd in fact been two attempts to deliver the item, several days apart, and that the local branch had held onto the item longer than they were required to do. However, it didn't come back to me. Since it wasn't at the branch office, I was told it had probably been shipped to the main sorting office (or whatever it is) in Belfast. Unfortunately the PO doesn't seem to be able to track its own items once they've gone into limbo, so (we were advised) the only thing we could do at this point was fill in a claim for lost mail. However, we were also told not to expect much in the way of recompense - don't expect more than a book of stamps, was the expression.

 

Right now I'm not sure what to do next. At the moment I'm obviously unwilling to do further business with the retailer, which is a shame as (I said) they have been excellent and helpful in the past. However, I'm still down a loco or 100 pounds, whichever way you look at it.

 

I'm not looking to apportion blame here, just wondering what others might do in the same position?

[Kris]

If you bought your original item with a credit card you might be able to claim for the loss from them as some insure goods. I don't think that you will be able to claim from them as if the goods were not delivered or were faulty and the store would not deal with the fault. (The cc company would claim the money back from the store in this case - As the store has supplied the goods and had agreed to exchange / refund they have done nothing wrong, and there is a chance that the store could then take action against yourself to recover the money). If you do contact your CC company make sure you give them all the facts.

 

If the post office has lost the loco you will be able to claim upto £41 if you have proof of postage and did not insure the package for more.

The final option is to check with your contents insurer, again they might cover this, but your excess / any no claims bonus may not make this effective.

[Guest dilbert]

Re. the OP, if you have been dealing with this retailer for several years, then you will find out (in their terms) what 'bona fide' means (good or bad) ...

 

Over the past couple of years, I've had several parcels to be received go astray (and never be seen again) so I chose to go for full blown registered mail - and then one day I get a postal slip to go and pick up a parcel at the local office. The problem I had was the postie had the right number for my house on the slip, but had indicated the wrong street so all sorts of possibilities exist for nicking parcels ... I don't have much confidence in the system and haven't used eBay in a year of donkeys.

 

Good luck in any case ...dilbert

[Kenton]

The retailer may well be out of the loop here having done absolutely nothing wrong. The contract breached is between you and the Post Office who have failed to deliver the item and then lost it. They have no proof that they have even tried to deliver it. It would of course been down to you to take insurance on the item (it is usually an added option for registered delivery). Your biggest problem then will be proving the value for that insurance claim.

[Barry Ten]

Thanks all - sound advice, and I hadn't (yet) got as far as thinking that I may be covered by my CC, which I did use for the payment. I will look into that. I also didn't know about this 41 pound thing.

 

As for Kenton's point that the PO can't prove they tried to deliver it, the retailer himself said that they'd left a card - it was just that by the time he went to the local post office, the item wasn't there any more. As it happens, there were probably two cards left.

[Pennine MC]

As for Kenton's point that the PO can't prove they tried to deliver it, the retailer himself said that they'd left a card - it was just that by the time he went to the local post office, the item wasn't there any more. As it happens, there were probably two cards left.

 

 

TBH I think I'd have reservations about the line taken by the retailer here (and not just because Kenton is as ever routinely taking the dissenting view). OK, it may be 'sender's responsibility' but you know that postie tried twice to deliver it. Whilst I'm sure the shop receives a lot of parcels, I'd say you could reasonably expect them to be open when postie delivers, and you could also reasonably expect them to be diligent about collecting those that are missed. It's hardly like a house delivery, which is very likely to come whilst the occupants are at work. True, you might not get anywhere with them even if you pressure them, but I dont see that it should be your risk and if they do stonewall you, you certainly dont have to use them again

[Jonboy]

At work we often have customers not collect items and them get returned via Belfast. They often arrive back circa 4 weeks after posting.

[Steve K]

Thanks all - sound advice, and I hadn't (yet) got as far as thinking that I may be covered by my CC, which I did use for the payment. I will look into that. I also didn't know about this 41 pound thing.

I know they originally referred to "a book of stamps", but's that's euphemistic, I think: the maximum compensation payable is normally the current value of 100 1st class stamps for uninsured goods, so long as you have proof of postage. Proof of postage, in these cases, can simply be your receipt from the Post Office.

 

The whole credit card insurance scheme amazes me - having previously been in debt with cards and loans (and cleared my dues some time back), I'm now reluctant to use a CC for anything, but the automatic insurance really seems like a "money for nothing" deal. Why the credit companies offer it, I've no idea - surely not out of the goodness of their hearts, so presumably it's some requirement of the Consumer Credit Act - but if it's your only remaining hope, why not give it a go? That said, the fact that you were sending the goods back to the supplier may mean that you're not covered.

 

There you are. 100-odd words, and I've said nothing new. Sorry about that, Al, but best of luck in reolving the situation.

[Wheeltapper]

Whilst I'm sure the shop receives a lot of parcels, I'd say you could reasonably expect them to be open when postie delivers,

 

 

This rather depends where the retailers premises are on the posties round .

 

A friend who runs a business was getting very few parcels actually delivered but a great many cards were being left saying they had tried but failed to deliver . After a lengthy investigation it was found the address was near the start of the round and the regular postman being a diligent sort started his delivery just after 7am . However the business staff did not arrive for work until 8.30 for a 9.00 opening and were never there when the postman called . After a while the postie got fed up carrying these parcels backwards and forwards from the sorting office , so left them in the office and delivered a card instead .

 

In a way understandable but it took an aweful long time to sort out what was actually happening.

[Geoff Endacott]

I'm not sure that the model shop has done nothing wrong. They sent you a model which didn't work properly. If they had sent you one which did work, none of this would have happened.

 

You then followed their instructions for returning the model and they were not able to accept a delivery from their chosen courier.

 

I would make a claim against your credit card on the basis that the goods you ordered (a model which worked properly) were not supplied. Let them take it up with the shop.

 

Geoff Endacott

[Geoff Endacott]

The Distance Selling Regulations make interesting reading

http://www.oft.gov.u...eral/oft698.pdf . See 3.46:

As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer’s money even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received by you before you make a refund.

That's the law. Ask the shop for a refund quoting the DSR.

Geoff Endacott

[Kris]

 

The whole credit card insurance scheme amazes me - having previously been in debt with cards and loans (and cleared my dues some time back), I'm now reluctant to use a CC for anything, but the automatic insurance really seems like a "money for nothing" deal. Why the credit companies offer it, I've no idea - surely not out of the goodness of their hearts, so presumably it's some requirement of the Consumer Credit Act -

 

 

It is a legal requirement for credit cards. Not sure which part of the law makes it so though. It applies to goods costing more than £100 and less than £30000.

 

 

 

[Steve K]

As I said, I guessed it wasn't simply generosity! So that leaves Al with either the credit card company (but was the purchase over £100, or £100 exactly?) or the Post Office. Oh, or the original supplier... three choices - can we narrow it down, I wonder?

[YesTor]

The Distance Selling Regulations make interesting reading

http://www.oft.gov.u...eral/oft698.pdf . See 3.46:

As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer’s money even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received by you before you make a refund.

That's the law. Ask the shop for a refund quoting the DSR.

Geoff Endacott

 

That is fine, but this does not stand alone. This right is based upon the consumer having cancelled the order in writing (email or fax is fine) prior to requesting any refund

[YesTor]

At the end of the day the item has become mislaid whilst in the care of Royal Mail, whether the retailer received the cards left by the postman or not. So your claim is with Royal Mail. It sounds as though you have tracking information/proof of posting, so this should not be a problem. To prove the value of the item all that you require is a copy of your order confirmation or receipt.

 

However, as already highlighted, the retailer failed to supply an item that was "fit for purpose", so if it were me I think I would pursue this with your credit card company. They are usually pretty helpful in these situations, and will place a hold on the transaction pending investigation. Once underway, you will usually find that any problems are usually resolved, as the last thing the retailer wants is a "credit card chargeback", as this in itself will cost the retailer an additional fee as imposed by the credit card issuer.

[Kris]

The Distance Selling Regulations make interesting reading

http://www.oft.gov.u...eral/oft698.pdf . See 3.46:

As soon as possible after the consumer cancels, and in any case within 30 days at the latest. You must refund the consumer’s money even if you have not yet collected the goods or had them returned to you by the consumer. You cannot insist on the goods being received by you before you make a refund.

That's the law. Ask the shop for a refund quoting the DSR.

Geoff Endacott

 

How do you then stand if the goods are not returned once the money has been returned?

 

 

 

[Barry Ten]

Again, thanks all. I'm keen not to get into an adversarial situation with the retailer, so I think my first port of call will be the CC company now - although per Jonboy's message I hold out hope that the item may resurface at some point. We do have all relevant paperwork still to hand, so there's no problem in proving that the various transactions took place. My wife is excellent for not throwing out receipts etc.

 

I'll be sure to report on progress...

[hayfield]

Barry

 

It looks to me that both the retailer and the Royal Mail have to get together and sort this out.

 

The Royal Mail has confirmed that it is still in their posession, problem their compensation is not enough.

 

Why was the retailer not there to accept it and then failed to go and pick it up ?

 

Distance selling rules put the onus on the retailer and not the buyer.

 

Just let the Royal Mail and the retailer sort it out between them, this is one of the costs of selling via mail order.

 

You have done your bit by trying to return it. Ask for your model back and let the others sort out who bears the cost. Good luck

[spamcan61]

Barry

 

Distance selling rules put the onus on the retailer and not the buyer.

 

Just let the Royal Mail and the retailer sort it out between them, this is one of the costs of selling via mail order.

 

You have done your bit by trying to return it. Ask for your model back and let the others sort out who bears the cost. Good luck

 

Trouble is DSR only apply for 7 days after receipt of the goods, unless the retailer does not mention your right to return goods under DSR in their T&Cs, in which case it's 3 months. Either way return of the goods is supposed to be at the retailer's cost, unless their T&Cs specifically state otherwise. As the goods have been used I don't think DSR would apply anyway, as to risk and title in case of faulty goods I can't track that down from a consumer standpoint.

 

Form the Royal Mail's point of view the easy thing to do is bung B10 41 quid, then it's case closed. :-/

[Revolution Mike]

It isn't just DSR here, Sale of Goods Act also applies IIRC.

Off the top of my head I am not sure how that helps Barry Ten though.

 

The retailer supplied faulty goods - his responsibility to rectify the situation.

The retailer asks for them to be sent back and specifies a very specific form of postage service (presumably because he knows he is responsible for the cost of the return postage and is trying to minimise his costs).

Barry hands over to the Royal Mail and has proof of doing so.

RM attempts delivery several times and holds parcel for longer than necessary.

Retailer fails to pick up parcel.

Parcel "returned" and lost.

 

Morally, if not legally, I would argue that the retailer has a duty to either refund Barry or replace the item. The retailer specified an inadequate postal service for the return and should have been aware of the risk, furthermore the retailer has acknowledged that he failed to collect the parcel.

 

Obviously in return Barry should agree to return the faulty item if it ever gets back to him (the RM can take a long time to return items in these circumstances).

[beast66606]

I would speak to citizens advice, the RM part of this is rather odd, it successfully got the parcel to it's destination but then lost it, duty of care springs to mind BUT I'm not an expert - hence the citizens advice pointer.

[EddieB]

Usual IANAL disclaimer applies, but my opinion is that the onus rests with the retailer.

 

It seems to be a widespread policy that faulty goods are returned by the cheapest method of posting. Such "services" are at high risk of going astray, so when they are requested by the retailer, the retailer must be cognisant of the risks involved and therefore accept that they will bear the costs of loss or damage in transit. I would suggest your first avenue of redress is with the retailer and, if they don't play ball, with the credit card company. Unpleasant if you have had an otherwise good relationship with the retailer, so obviously keep things amicable.

 

Personal experience suggests that any items valued at over 100x the basic first class postage cost should always be sent by a secure method and insured. I learned my lesson a couple of years ago when a whole irreplaceable batch of slides from a tour of the Ukraine was lost in transit (it still hurts). I'm practically certain that the box was delivered, but left by the postman on the doorstep and subsequently stolen - vehement denials at the sorting office, only to be caught doing the same thing a couple of months later (spotted by a neighbour).

 

Getting compensation from the Royal Mail can be a tedious process. For a brief time I started buying stamps from eBay, but too many packets were going astray in the post that I soon gave up. A claim for one packet that arrived opened, contents missing, inside on of the Royal Mail's "we're sorry" poly bags generated a whole raft of correspondence and denial ("inadequately packed" versus "but it wasn't untuil one of your staff opened it") wasting far more time than the derisory comensation merited.

 

 

To finish on a brighter note, checking a book order from Amazon recently, its tracking information showed it as "delivered" by a courier firm, when it clearly hadn't been received. Raised with Amazon and replacement sent out same day first class post, no quibble. Replacement goods arrived safely, no idea what became of the original order.

[Kenton]

It seems to be a widespread policy that faulty goods are returned by the cheapest method of posting.

 

Hang on here. where are we getting this idea from?

 

The OP clearly states "registered mail"

 

that's not "recorded" it is "special delivery registered" post which is about the most expensive route. If they had insisted cheapest it would have been "Parcel Post"

 

Whenever I have sent anything "registered" the PO counter assistant always asks the value for insurance and charges accordingly. If your response is "nothing or no value" then the loss is very much with the person sending it.

 

As for this "we left a card" nonsense I have had plenty of experience of that joke, along "we tried to deliver but you were out" and they wonder why people always say "the cheque is in the post".

[Revolution Mike]

The plot thickens - what the OP actually states is "second class registered mail". There is no such thing. There is 2nd class recorded mail or special delivery (which by definition is 1st class).

 

Either way by specifying 2nd class it is a reasonable assumption that the retailer was trying to save money.

[EddieB]

Hang on here. where are we getting this idea from?

 

The OP clearly states "registered mail"

 

that's not "recorded" it is "special delivery registered" post which is about the most expensive route. If they had insisted cheapest it would have been "Parcel Post"

 

Whenever I have sent anything "registered" the PO counter assistant always asks the value for insurance and charges accordingly. If your response is "nothing or no value" then the loss is very much with the person sending it.

 

As for this "we left a card" nonsense I have had plenty of experience of that joke, along "we tried to deliver but you were out" and they wonder why people always say "the cheque is in the post".

 

Not exactly.

 

There is no longer a "registered" mail service, having been replaced by "special next day". If it was sent using this method, basic compensation is included up to £500, the claim is against the Post Office and the OP can rest happily (in theory).

 

I suspect that it was actually second class recorded, which gives proof of posting and of delivery, but alas, no compensation above the standard multiple of postage paid. Within its maximum limit of 1 kg, second class is the cheapest method for packets (Parcel Post kicks in with a minimum of £4.41).